Re: Internal Debts Vs External Debts OF Pakistan
Are you giving up your campaign for Islamic caliphate form of government and now calling for democracy? obviously "giving the man in the street a say" sounds democratic.
All that aside, if Pakistan borrowed, Pakistan has to repay with interest as agreed ...unless the loan is forgiven for humanitarian reasons (as was done recently for several billions).
Re: Internal Debts Vs External Debts OF Pakistan
ak 47 u havent differentiated in b/w riba n int.
otherwise how can i explain if u dont reply to tht
Re: Internal Debts Vs External Debts OF Pakistan
Turkey is also ......but its super duper secular but its prospering......is it not taking loan?
[QUOTE]
China is prospering for now because it produces cheap goods and has cheap labour costs once cost of living rises as it is now then we will see the other side of the story like today where 66 million people in China have been made homeless. Copying the western model also entails you gain their vices and social chaos for example HIV is spreading like wildfire in China because the social system has disintegrated where 10 years ago the idea of man and women openly free mixing would have been looked down upon today different story. The Poverty, crime and constant violations of basic rights are often hidden when people like yourself give example of China so it is better when you give example of China don;t give just the shiny surface give whats happening underneath the surface aswell this way we get the whole picture.
[/QUOTE]
So wats the point ?
[QUOTE]
Also one point to mention along with India the economies of these countries are tightly regulated they do allow outside inteference in their economies can you say same about pakistan no you cannot the economic policy of pakistan is decided in Washington!
[/QUOTE]
Now you r jumping from here to there . if suppose you are correct 100% ly then the atomic thing was USA's idea.
n by the way i m taking ur view as " loans r wrong , one can never prosper undrer them".......am i right ? this is wat u r saying? so stick to the topic
[QUOTE]
Argentina was Lucky? lucky against the imf are you joking how the hell can you just get lucky against criminal organisations like the IMF and World Bank because pakistan would like to know that!
[/QUOTE]
Pak. has $37b loans and Argentina had $ 150b plus loans , it was impossible for them to give it back
[QUOTE]
Your point about pakistan on front line and we are better than them regarding africa i did'nt understand because your point makes no sense.
[/quote]
OK! let me try again ......bhai jaan suppose u r correct ! even then Argentina can get that benefit but not Pak. bcz
1 we r Muslims.......they dont want Muslims to prosper
2 India is our enemy , So is Russia, .but India is a growing power ..with growing economy so US has its own benifits with india so Pak is cornered....
so we sud stop ur way of thinking tht some1 will do something for us ....
Ok! now am i clear ? regarding africa forget it i take my words back
Re: Internal Debts Vs External Debts OF Pakistan
Turkey is also ......but its super duper secular but its prospering......is it not taking loan?
[QUOTE]
China is prospering for now because it produces cheap goods and has cheap labour costs once cost of living rises as it is now then we will see the other side of the story like today where 66 million people in China have been made homeless. Copying the western model also entails you gain their vices and social chaos for example HIV is spreading like wildfire in China because the social system has disintegrated where 10 years ago the idea of man and women openly free mixing would have been looked down upon today different story. The Poverty, crime and constant violations of basic rights are often hidden when people like yourself give example of China so it is better when you give example of China don;t give just the shiny surface give whats happening underneath the surface aswell this way we get the whole picture.
[/QUOTE]
So wats the point ?
[QUOTE]
Also one point to mention along with India the economies of these countries are tightly regulated they do allow outside inteference in their economies can you say same about pakistan no you cannot the economic policy of pakistan is decided in Washington!
[/QUOTE]
Now you r jumping from here to there . if suppose you are correct 100% ly then the atomic thing was USA's idea.
n by the way i m taking ur view as " loans r wrong , one can never prosper undrer them".......am i right ? this is wat u r saying? so stick to the topic
[QUOTE]
Argentina was Lucky? lucky against the imf are you joking how the hell can you just get lucky against criminal organisations like the IMF and World Bank because pakistan would like to know that!
[/QUOTE]
Pak. has $37b loans and Argentina had $ 150b plus loans , it was impossible for them to give it back
[QUOTE]
Your point about pakistan on front line and we are better than them regarding africa i did'nt understand because your point makes no sense.
[/quote]
OK! let me try again ......bhai jaan suppose u r correct ! even then Argentina can get that benefit but not Pak. bcz
1 we r Muslims.......they dont want Muslims to prosper
2 India is our enemy , So is Russia, .but India is a growing power ..with growing economy so US has its own benifits with india so Pak is cornered....
so we sud stop ur way of thinking tht some1 will do something for us ....
Ok! now am i clear ? regarding africa forget it i take my words back
Re: Internal Debts Vs External Debts OF Pakistan
Firstly you was the one who was mentinioning pakistan was'nt islamic, So i stated pakistan is secular but people want it to become islamic. turkey is a secular state also so it has to be made clear to you these states are secular and they implement secular/ capitalist viewpoints and laws on its people so it is impossible for them to implement an islamic ruling when they are secular, turkey is prospering did you say :) ok if thats what you call prospering then good luck.
So china was exposed and you claim whats the point you have very selective answers when your examples are scrutinized.
Argentina refused to pay back the loans because it was ruining the nation it took a stand and the IMF backed down. Pakistan can do the same but its leadership is remote controlled from else where we all know where from.
And you are correct the loans from IMF and World bank are a disaster for whoever takes them, there is one country in history that i can remember that has defeated the IMF/World bank poison i will let you do some research and find that country but now even that country is back in trouble.
No one is their to help you, a strong nation is one that is self sufficent so it does not rely on others, because if you rely on others then once these other countries decides to cut itself off from you, then you in big trouble. I am not saying pakistan should cut itself from outside world and not deal with them i am saying it must become self sufficent as protection for its own good.
Re: Internal Debts Vs External Debts OF Pakistan
Giving a man in the street a say means giving them a choice in islam this is simply voting on a candidate does not mean they accept concept of democracy which is man making the laws which is totally not acceptable in islam.
As several billions loans being forgiven recently if you mean the recent G8 one confirm this is the one you mean so that i can refute it!
Re: Internal Debts Vs External Debts OF Pakistan
ak 47 can you provide any link to wat u said abt Argentina.....i m also searching but you know it in detail so help req.
Re: Internal Debts Vs External Debts OF Pakistan
ak 47 wait for my reply on post 25 of urs........
Re: Internal Debts Vs External Debts OF Pakistan
As several billions loans being forgiven recently if you mean the recent G8 one confirm this is the one you mean so that i can refute it!
Hold on a minute - what Pak has now is NOT called democracy considering Musharaf and the power of military. In a democracy military reports to elected civilian authority.
In fact when you take emotions out of it, what you have at present is closer to the islamic system (which in turn is a monarchy). Ofcourse a monarch will not allow real democratic features to take too much hold and so will use whatever means and names to misdirect people away from their 'rights'.
as to debt forgiveness I think I am referring to what was done close to 9/11 as well as the significant paris club reschedules
Re: Internal Debts Vs External Debts OF Pakistan
Aslaam O’Alaikum Ak47 and the whole site,
First of all you (Ak47) haven’t used the tool of “Scrutiny” to my examples instead you have used the tool of “denial”—A Total Denial.
Talking of China you failed to give hard facts and explanations which may support your view, and as far Turkey problem is concerned it doesn’t matter whether its secular or not we are discussing “Debts & Interest “(which is far away from the ACTUAL TOPIC) . So in that frame Turkey’s economy explains and supports my view. Same is the case with Malaysia.
2
http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/COUNTRIES/LACEXT
/ARGENTINAEXTN/0,contentMDK:20771820~menuPK:316030~pagePK:141137
~piPK:141127~theSitePK:316024,00.html
An extract from the link
" Argentina Economy Minister Initiates Pay down of $9.8 Billion IMF Debt
Argentine Economy Minister Felicia Miceli signed a resolution Thursday directing the central bank to move forward with the complete pay down of the nation’s $9.8 billion debt with the International Monetary Fund (IMF), the ministry said in a statement, reports Dow Jones.
3
http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/COUNTRIES/LACEXT
/ARGENTINAEXTN/0,menuPK:316050~pagePK:141132~piPK:141109~
theSitePK:316024,00.html#debt
An extract from the link
4
http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/COUNTRIES/0,PAGESIZE:10~
menuPK:177680~pagePK:169643~piPK:169646~theSitePK:136917
~COUNTRYCODE:AR,00.html?countrylist=AR
An extract from the link
Argentina
Estimated Debt Service Payments - Summary
Based on Balances as of 31-DEC-05
All amounts denominated in US$ equivalents, Thousands
I‘ve tried my level best to explain in what I strongly believe in, but could not even dent your thinking so I’ll take this argument to a different level perhaps then you might be able to understand what I am saying.
Let’s take an example AK47, only you have to answer it or solve it.
Ak47 lends Rs.100 to me (Ali Anzar) on January 1, 2001 to January 1, 2006, i.e. For 5 years, Ali Anzar has to repay Rs.100, in 5 equal installments one in every year. We are not using Interest. I (Ali) only have to payback Rs.100 to Mr.Ak47.
The rate of inflation in Pakistan is about 8%, meaning
The purchasing power of Rs.100 in 2001, will not remain the same in 2006
Let’s use Mathematics to solve what Rs.100 in 2001, would be equal to in 2006
[100 * (1.08) ^ 5] = Rs.146.9328077
In 2001 the amount of commodities which Ak47 could buy from Rs.100 for that he has to pay Rs.146.9328077.
Re: Internal Debts Vs External Debts OF Pakistan
You don’t know the difference between the process of voting as an act and man made laws called democracy do you. Stop a minute then answer ok.
significant paris club reductions?
Re: Internal Debts Vs External Debts OF Pakistan
significant paris club reductions?
Perhaps Pakistan can emulate the utopian example of the Taliban, where riba was not allowed. Taliban made lots of progress without the need for any un-Islamic debts. They sure told the IMF and WB to get lost.
Re: Internal Debts Vs External Debts OF Pakistan
America's debt is not to the IMF or WB. Most of it is to it's own citizen. All of it is in the form of US Treasury Notes(Bonds and Bills).
Get your facts straight!
Re: Internal Debts Vs External Debts OF Pakistan
refrences for china that you requested!
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2005-11/08/content_3748419.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4728025.stm
To be honest you are first person i have met in the world that claims turkey is doing great with this debt burden on its head and its economy is perfectly fine and i speak to people who are turkish so congratulations 
also since 99/00 turkey had to borrow a furthur $30 billion from the IMF to cover their loan payments!
turkeys debt stands at $165.3 billion
http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=94404
I think it is very simple which you don’t seem to understand is debt is a poison and lenders like the IMF and World Bank are their to rape your countries and if you are trying to say no it is ok loans are great then you are barking up the wrong tree!
As for riba you need to get out of this capitalist mindset that you keep throwing out because islamic economic system is totaly different than the capitalist model so justifying riba is’nt going to work no matter how you look at it.
the capitalist economic system always concentrates wealth into the hands of a few rich people whether they live in the West or reside in third world countries, whereas Islamic economic system is based upon the distribution of wealth and prohibits the accumulation of wealth amongst a few individuals.
And riba is process of increasing money through loans or savings and as everybody knows sorry i mean every muslim knows this is forbidden in islam.
Re: Internal Debts Vs External Debts OF Pakistan
Oh just as expected the whitewash brigade comes along, speaking of facts where did i mention US debt is from the IMF or World bank the US owns the IMF and world bank why would it pay organisations it owns i am sure Bush has a good view and has his finger on the pulse of the IMF why is this well with the IMF headquaters Just down the road in surprise surpise Washinton interesting and can Bush and co see the World Bank well i never they can view the World bank i am so shocked NOT because where is this World Bank based in Washington DC what a surpise NOT!
Secondly the US debt is 14 trillion with the External debt of the US standing at several trillion dollars about the same or slightly more than the rest of the worlds debt. The US pays around $20 billion a year to service its debts, rest of the world sorry let me precise the devolping nations( third world) pays around $300 billion to service its debts this is why it is hypocrisy because organisation like the IMF/World bank interfere in other countries policies the US does not get this treatment so get your facts straight !
Re: Internal Debts Vs External Debts OF Pakistan
ak47 - are you doing this for some cheap thrill? you haven't made a single construtive suggestion and all you do is find fault with everything ali and others offer as solution. you have found a million ways to say next to nothing.
So you don't want Pak to pay interest even if it means breaking the contrat they signed. Why would anyone lend to Pakistan without interest?
Re: Internal Debts Vs External Debts OF Pakistan
So you don't want Pak to pay interest even if it means breaking the contrat they signed. Why would anyone lend to Pakistan without interest?
exactly ! 100% correct. Brother ak47 wants us to break the agreements and then who knows what will hapen?
By the way ak47 if we break our agreements will any1 trust us again. ?
Re: Internal Debts Vs External Debts OF Pakistan
these links support me not u ..lol
Brother it doesn’t matter , see its Populatin and GDP growth and compare it with Pakistan
Brother my question remains there
You have to answer th this…
Secondly i also discussed Malaysia and its e.g is related to my Actual Topic…
Costruction …you don’t reply to that
Re: Internal Debts Vs External Debts OF Pakistan
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/tu.html
**Economy Turkey Top of Page **
Economy - overview:
Turkey’s dynamic economy is a complex mix of modern industry and commerce along with a traditional agriculture sector that in 2004 still accounted for more than 34% of employment. It has a strong and rapidly growing private sector, yet the state still plays a major role in basic industry, banking, transport, and communication. The largest industrial sector is textiles and clothing, which accounts for one-third of industrial employment; it faces stiff competition in international markets with the end of the global quota system. However, other sectors, notably the automotive and electronics industries, are rising in importance within Turkey’s export mix. Real GNP growth has exceeded 6% in many years, but this strong expansion has been interrupted by sharp declines in output in 1994, 1999, and 2001. The economy is turning around with the implementation of economic reforms, and 2004 GDP growth reached 9%. Inflation fell to 7.7% in 2005 - a 30-year low. Despite these strong economic gains in 2002-05, which were largely due to renewed investor interest in emerging markets, IMF backing, and tighter fiscal policy, the economy is still burdened by a high current account deficit and high debt. The public sector fiscal deficit exceeds 6% of GDP - due in large part to high interest payments, which accounted for about 37% of central government spending in 2004. Prior to 2005, foreign direct investment (FDI) in Turkey averaged less than $1 billion annually, but further economic and judicial reforms and prospective EU membership are expected to boost FDI. Privatization sales are currently approaching $21 billion.
GDP (purchasing power parity):
$551.6 billion (2005 est.)
GDP (official exchange rate):
$344.8 billion (2005 est.)
GDP - real growth rate:
5.1% (2005 est.)
GDP - per capita:
purchasing power parity - $7,900 (2005 est.)
GDP - composition by sector:
agriculture: 11.7%
industry: 29.8%
services: 58.5% (2005 est.)
Labor force:
24.7 million
note: about 1.2 million Turks work abroad (2005 est.)
Labor force - by occupation:
agriculture 35.9%, industry 22.8%, services 41.2% (3rd quarter, 2004)
Unemployment rate:
10% (plus underemployment of 4.0%) (2005 est.)
Population below poverty line:
20% (2002)
Household income or consumption by percentage share:
lowest 10%: 2.3%
highest 10%: 30.7% (2000)
Distribution of family income - Gini index:
42 (2003)
Inflation rate (consumer prices):
7.7% (2005 est.)
Investment (gross fixed):
19.3% of GDP (2005 est.)
Budget:
***revenues: $93.58 billion ***
***expenditures: $115.3 billion, including capital expenditures of NA (2005 est.) ***
***Public debt: ***
***67.5% of GDP (2005 est.) ***
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/my.html
**Economy Malaysia Top of Page **
Economy - overview:
Malaysia, a middle-income country, transformed itself from 1971 through the late 1990’s from a producer of raw materials into an emerging multi-sector economy. Growth was almost exclusively driven by exports - particularly of electronics. As a result, Malaysia was hard hit by the global economic downturn and the slump in the information technology (IT) sector in 2001 and 2002. GDP in 2001 grew only 0.5% because of an estimated 11% contraction in exports, but a substantial fiscal stimulus package equal to US $1.9 billion mitigated the worst of the recession, and the economy rebounded in 2002 with a 4.1% increase. The economy grew 4.9% in 2003, notwithstanding a difficult first half, when external pressures from SARS and the Iraq War led to caution in the business community. Growth topped 7% in 2004 and 5% in 2005. Healthy foreign exchange reserves, low inflation, and a small external debt are all strengths that make it unlikely that Malaysia will experience a financial crisis over the near term similar to the one in 1997. The economy remains dependent on continued growth in the US, China, and Japan, top export destinations and key sources of foreign investment.
GDP (purchasing power parity):
$248 billion (2005 est.)
GDP (official exchange rate):
$124.1 billion (2005 est.)
GDP - real growth rate:
5.1% (2005 est.)
GDP - per capita:
purchasing power parity - $10,400 (2005 est.)
GDP - composition by sector:
agriculture: 7.2%
industry: 33.3%
services: 59.5% (2005 est.)
Labor force:
10.67 million (2005 est.)
Labor force - by occupation:
agriculture 14.5%, industry 36%, services 49.5% (2000 est.)
Unemployment rate:
3.6% (2005 est.)
Population below poverty line:
8% (1998 est.)
Household income or consumption by percentage share:
lowest 10%: 1.4%
highest 10%: 39.2% (2003 est.)
Distribution of family income - Gini index:
49.2 (1997)
Inflation rate (consumer prices):
2.9% (2005 est.)
Investment (gross fixed):
20.3% of GDP (2005 est.)
***Budget: ***
***revenues: $30.57 billion ***
***expenditures: $34.62 billion, including capital expenditures of $9.4 billion (2005 est.) ***
***Public debt: ***
***48.3% of GDP (2005 est.) ***
-----------------------------------------------------
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/pk.html
**Economy Pakistan Top of Page **
Economy - overview:
Pakistan, an impoverished and underdeveloped country, has suffered from decades of internal political disputes, low levels of foreign investment, and a costly, ongoing confrontation with neighboring India. However, IMF-approved government policies, bolstered by generous foreign assistance and renewed access to global markets since 2001, have generated solid macroeconomic recovery the last four years. The government has made substantial macroeconomic reforms since 2000, although progress on more politically sensitive reforms has slowed. For example, in the budget for fiscal year 2006, Islamabad did not impose taxes on the agriculture or real estate sectors, despite Pakistan’s chronically low tax-to-GDP ratio. While long-term prospects remain uncertain, given Pakistan’s low level of development, medium-term prospects for job creation and poverty reduction are the best in more than a decade. Islamabad has raised development spending from about 2% of GDP in the 1990s to 4% in 2003, a necessary step towards reversing the broad underdevelopment of its social sector. GDP growth, spurred by double-digit gains in industrial production over the past year, has become less dependent on agriculture, and remained above 7% in 2004 and 2005. Inflation remains the biggest threat to the economy, jumping to more than 9% in 2005. The World Bank and Asian Development Bank announced that they would provide US $1 billion each in aid to help Pakistan rebuild areas hit by the October 2005 earthquake in Kashmir. Foreign exchange reserves continued to reach new levels in 2005, supported by steady worker remittances.
GDP (purchasing power parity):
$385.2 billion (2005 est.)
GDP (official exchange rate):
$92.2 billion (2005 est.)
GDP - real growth rate:
8.4% (2005 est.)
GDP - per capita:
purchasing power parity - $2,400 (2005 est.)
GDP - composition by sector:
agriculture: 21.6%
industry: 25.1%
services: 53.3% (2005 est.)
Labor force:
46.84 million
note: extensive export of labor, mostly to the Middle East, and use of child labor (2005 est.)
Labor force - by occupation:
agriculture 42%, industry 20%, services 38% (2004 est.)
Unemployment rate:
6.6% plus substantial underemployment (2005 est.)
Population below poverty line:
32% (FY00/01 est.)
Household income or consumption by percentage share:
lowest 10%: 4.1%
highest 10%: 27.6% (FY96/97)
Distribution of family income - Gini index:
41 (FY98/99)
Inflation rate (consumer prices):
9.2% (2005 est.)
Investment (gross fixed):
15.3% of GDP (2005 est.)
***Budget: ***
***revenues: $15.45 billion ***
***expenditures: $18.42 billion, including capital expenditures of NA (2005 est.) ***
***Public debt: ***
***54.3% of GDP (2005 est.) ***
--------------------
A Breif Comparison B/w Turkey , Malaysia and Pakistan
Turkey
Budget:
***revenues: $93.58 billion ***
***expenditures: $115.3 billion, including capital expenditures of NA (2005 est.) ***
***Public debt: ***
***67.5% of GDP (2005 est.) ***
Malaysia
**Budget: **
**revenues: $30.57 billion **
**expenditures: $34.62 billion, including capital expenditures of $9.4 billion (2005 est.) **
**Public debt: **
48.3% of GDP (2005 est)
Pakistan
**Budget: **
**revenues: $15.45 billion **
**expenditures: $18.42 billion, including capital expenditures of NA (2005 est.) **
**Public debt: **
**54.3% of GDP (2005 est.) **
Which is better?
Pakistan
Turkey
Makysia
oh yea you said Argentina do not pay debtserving …n i opened your eyes even then you didn’t respond to that
Can you throw light also on How Malaysia 's growth- immemse growth was possible under Mahatir bin Mohammad’s rule and in just 20 years he changed the fate of country ?
Re: Internal Debts Vs External Debts OF Pakistan
Well If you make statements they have to be refuted if you cannot take it then its not my fault.