Faisal, please define seriousness to me. I can think think of sanctions being placed if the Pakistani government is to be involved, but not as far as a full fledge attack on Pakistan. We are not that weak, and being a nuclear state actually means something. But, involving intelligence agencies of other countries such as thw FBI and CIA (if true) to interview our scientists, where is the sovereignty. Why the US, if we don't need their seal of approval. That's troublesome, and when the time comes, trust me, they will be the first one to leave us in lurch..
Ok, let me make my views clear.
Its one thing if Pakistan is developing nuclear weapons. We say its to defend ourselves against India. No one (meaning US, Russia, Uk etc) really likes it, but since its not a threat against them, they'll say "whatever. Let the kids play".
Fast forward to today. If Pakistan starts to "sell" nuclear weapons to North Korea, Iran, Lybia, Syria etc, then it becomes a different ball game. Some of these countries are suspected to be a direct threat to US, UK, Russia etc.
Now the thing is no longer "a small country in the South Asia who has developed some serious toys (nukes) to balance the threat of a big and aggresive neighbor". Now, its a danger to these big guys directly.
When Pakistan is developing the nuclear weapons and is doing everything to protect it, its a worthy cause. I support that 100%. I am sure all Pakistanis do, cz we think of our nuclear assets as our strategic weapon to counter the threats against it. However, Pakistan ends up starting a garage sale to make a few bucks, then the question becomes "do we know what we are doing?".
It seems to me that the issue is out in the open, with Iran's declaration. What the Pak government is doing is damage control and to publicly distance itself from this mess.
Are they going overboard with it? May be.
Are there other ways to handle this? Quite possible.
Can any lack of resolve turn it into a disaster for Pakistan? You bet.
Originally posted by outlaw: *
**Fraudz, what worries me the most is Pakistan stooping to the level where we are incapable of defending ourselves, and the nuclear program being thrown into some sort of turmoil? *
well if we do have to scoop to that level, its not really due to how the situation is being handled, but due to how teh situation was created i.e. rogue scientists risking their country's wellbeing and defense programs to make a buck or to become some ummah hero.
*and the next thing you know is that musharraf is dealt with. I think we get more into a precarious situation each time by bending-over further, since we are giving up to pressure. *
well u bend or u break, sadlymusharraf has to deal with this unfortunate situation, he needs to show that they mean business so anyone with similar aspirations would be made to rethink their ideas and for the world to see that Pakistan means business and would come down hard on any rogue elements.
*Even, if there're reasons to believe that the scientists proliferated the technology, it should have been dealt in a more diplomatic manner. Containing the situation..? That’s what should have happened, but you need people who are actually capable. *
maybe the best course of action is to show that thegovt needs business. and if that hurts some people's feelings then so be it..Pakistan and its security comes first. Not the feelings of people who violated their oath.
I cannot believe how stupid we can be to believe that we would get away with something like this. We are our worst enemies.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by outlaw: *
Faisal, please define seriousness to me. I can think think of sanctions being placed if the Pakistani government is to be involved, but not as far as a full fledge attack on Pakistan. We are not that weak, and being a nuclear state actually means something. **But, involving intelligence agencies of other countries such as thw FBI and CIA (if true) to interview our scientists, where is the sovereignty. Why the US, if we don't need their seal of approval. That's troublesome,* and when the time comes, trust me, they will be the first one to leave us in lurch..
[/QUOTE]
I absolutely agree with outlaw on this one. Sure, we need to distance ourselves from these rogue elements within the nuclear sphere but do we need US spy agencies to do the work for us? I totally condemn the fact that Musharraf even allowed the thought of dis-integrity on part of Dr.A Q Khan. I have been a big supporter of Musharraf but if he continues to buckle under US pressure and starts handing over our nuclear scientists to them for interrogation then I'll withdraw all my support for him. I think its sick and disturbing that our nuclear scientists are being questioned and the govt. is a party to all of this. I am totally against this.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Fraudz: *
*Originally posted by outlaw: *
**Fraudz, what worries me the most is Pakistan stooping to the level where we are incapable of defending ourselves, and the nuclear program being thrown into some sort of turmoil? *
well if we do have to scoop to that level, its not really due to how the situation is being handled, but due to how teh situation was created i.e. rogue scientists risking their country's wellbeing and defense programs to make a buck or to become some ummah hero.
*and the next thing you know is that musharraf is dealt with. I think we get more into a precarious situation each time by bending-over further, since we are giving up to pressure. *
well u bend or u break, sadlymusharraf has to deal with this unfortunate situation, he needs to show that they mean business so anyone with similar aspirations would be made to rethink their ideas and for the world to see that Pakistan means business and would come down hard on any rogue elements.
*Even, if there're reasons to believe that the scientists proliferated the technology, it should have been dealt in a more diplomatic manner. Containing the situation..? That’s what should have happened, but you need people who are actually capable. *
maybe the best course of action is to show that thegovt needs business. and if that hurts some people's feelings then so be it..Pakistan and its security comes first. Not the feelings of people who violated their oath.
[/QUOTE]
Oh.if you think the country's well being is safeguarded by bowing to the US and meeting every single demand being put forward, then it's a colossal mistake. The US would hurt Pakistan eventually, if it wishes so, or when it feels like Pakistan is no longer a required ally. Pakistan’s stature is mere spend able unless our economic prowess is to be reckoned with, and we become diversified and strong enough where the sanctions alone can’t cripple our economy. I really don’t see it an imminent military threat where we have to create annoyance and disenchantment within the top scientific establishments, to a point where it could become fractious from within. This could pose a significant blow to the well being of the whole country. In my opinion, there are reasonable folks in the armed forces that would not stand by this, and Musharraf is only risking further alienation and isolation, and may have to keep reshuffling his top brass in order to stay in power.
But, sooner than later more actions such as this one could bring his imminent doom. It’s not the scientists who are risking the safety and well being of the country. It’s the very manner in which this investigation is being handled, and publicized in newspapers, as some sort of media trial of the top scientists.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
Ok, let me make my views clear.
Its one thing if Pakistan is developing nuclear weapons. We say its to defend ourselves against India. No one (meaning US, Russia, Uk etc) really likes it, but since its not a threat against them, they'll say "whatever. Let the kids play".
Fast forward to today. If Pakistan starts to "sell" nuclear weapons to North Korea, Iran, Lybia, Syria etc, then it becomes a different ball game. Some of these countries are suspected to be a direct threat to US, UK, Russia etc.
Now the thing is no longer "a small country in the South Asia who has developed some serious toys (nukes) to balance the threat of a big and aggresive neighbor". Now, its a danger to these big guys directly.
When Pakistan is developing the nuclear weapons and is doing everything to protect it, its a worthy cause. I support that 100%. I am sure all Pakistanis do, cz we think of our nuclear assets as our strategic weapon to counter the threats against it. However, Pakistan ends up starting a garage sale to make a few bucks, then the question becomes "do we know what we are doing?".
It seems to me that the issue is out in the open, with Iran's declaration. What the Pak government is doing is damage control and to publicly distance itself from this mess.
Are they going overboard with it? May be.
Are there other ways to handle this? Quite possible.
Can any lack of resolve turn it into a disaster for Pakistan? You bet.
[/QUOTE]
Faisal, I agree to some extent that Iran is partially to be blamed for this mess. However, countries like Libya is a non-issue. Israel was the first country to jump on the band-wagon that Pakistan has exported the weapons to Libya, even before jackass qazzaffi's statement. The point is that we will never be able to appease the West as far as this issue goes. We are not a threat to the security of any country, neither we should embark on something that can weaken our armed forces and its structure.
Just one question.
Legally what have they done wrong? I see nothing wrong in what they have done. If they have, any actions bi-lateral or multi-lateral that deal in the exchange of weapons is illegal.
Outlaw,
Lets think logically, how many overt nuclear powered countries do we have in the world?
- US
- UK
- Russia
- France
- China
- India
- Pakistan
Then we have suspects like Israel, North Korea and some central asian states who may have inherited some nuclear assets. Then there are a bunch of countries who have nuclear ambitions.
Now question is if a country like Iran or Egpyt or Libya or Bahrain (I am just picking out names of muslim countries) decide they want to get nuclear assets, which of these eight declared nuclear powers will they approach for help? Who is the most logical choice? It will be Pakistan. Why? Because we are muslim and we are poor. And that is where all the fingers will point. There is no escaping that. To top it off, Iran's declaration openly implicated Pakistan.
I agree with you that this is not easy, and we will forever be suspected of proliferation and there is no pleasing these big guys, cz they will suspect us whatever happens. But that is the price we have to pay for being a nuclear powered country. With power comes responsibility.
My original comment was that at this point we are not doing this public exercise to distance ourselves from the suspected proliferation to gain some monetary favor, (which we would typically do on less important issues), but in this case, since nuclear proliferation is involved so the stakes are much higher.
We are risking our nuclear assets.
If the cause is worthwhile, and we as a nation decide that we want to equip all (or some selected) muslim/friendly countries with nuclear weapons, then be it. Then we should be willing to take the risks, have appropriate media spin ready and be prepared with our response when the $hit hits the fan. But it should be a carefully thought-out and collected decision. Not a decision imposed upon us by some rogue scientists who decide to be champions and risk the safety of Pakistan and its assets by their actions.
Inquiry says Pak sold nuclear secrets!!!! Hmmmmmm!! inquiry also said Iraq has WMD..... :)
Agree with Faisal and Fraudia here. Developing Nukes for your own defense is one thing....and selling, leaking, transfering nuclear materials and technology to every tin pot dictator on earth is another...remember even Russia did not give it to any Commie regime in its block..not a single communist country other than Russia had it...and they were linked with embilical chord of idealogy. This was very irresponsible on the part of Pakistan as a country...your enemies were alledging this for years. Your govt was giving multiple-100% assurances. Now any credibility that Pakistan had left is gone forever.
Nukes can not be treated like any other weapon. yes other weapons kill and can decide the outcomes of wars but their damage is still limited to thousands at the most. Nukes can obliterate civilizations.
Will it be Ok if I grow poppy in my own backyard, water it myself from my own well, harvest and process it myself and then distribute for free or sell its products to your people on street? Will any society that cares about its children and people let me do that?
My assessment is some of these zealous scientists are nuts and so are their supporters and beneficiaries. Their loyalties are beyond countries and any people. Muslim world needs to contain these nuts themselves, US or anyone else should not be doing it for you.
Faisal, you see, implicating our own scientists or investigating them is a domestic issue; we and only we should be responsible for interrogations. Even some gung-ho scientists have decided to pass on the secrets to lets say Iran, then it's our responsibility to handle this matter appropriately. Whether, it's related to foreign press or any other intelligence agency. There's no doubt in mind that being a muslim country and a nuclear power carries loads of burden, and the scrutiny is bound to be a 100 times more. However, we should be equally shrewd in defence, and diplomacy.
The magnitude of unprofessionalism shown by the Pakistani side has been mind boggling. By simply caving in and putting all the blame on our top scientists, we have made things look much more worst than they are. I am sure we all know how this issue will be thrown around in the world press for years to come, and whenever there's a slight hunch of nuclear proliferation, all fingers will be automatically pointed towards Pakistan. When you have low level ministers, or spokesmen, each putting a different spin on the story, and trying to demonize scientists who are perverted because of personal lust and money, then you are asking for a public relations disaster.
That's what I am extremely upset at. We need to be stiff, and more mature while handling these kinds of issues. We need to stand our ground under such fiddly circumstances, and let the world known that we ain't any other like the cowards of sheikhdoms, or the qazzaffis, or the Iranis, and more importantly, we areperfectly capable of safeguarding our strategic interests on all levels.
What a shame, what a shame..let this be a lesson to all those who dare try to do something for the honor of a nation. Make sure that the nation can do the same for you when the time comes.
Where are the Pakistanis? They should brake into mass protests all over the country; they should protect the honor of this man by becoming human shields. Just because the nation leaders are cowards and dogs, doesn’t mean the people have to be also.
It is time for Pakistanis to send a message, either now or never. Or else there will never be another who will do something marvelous to defend the honor and dignity of this nation.
p.s I see people agreeing with what is happening, maybe because he is a Khan.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by outlaw: *
I can think think of sanctions being placed if the Pakistani government is to be involved, but not as far as a full fledge attack on Pakistan. We are not that weak, and being a nuclear state actually means something.
[/QUOTE]
Two nights ago, I met a Pakistani gentleman who is visiting from Pakistan and whose brother-in-law is part of the staff of the top Army General in Pindi.. He was telling me that right after 9/11, when it was imminent that US plans to attack Afghanistan and Pakistan had to take a position on the issue, Musharraf chaired the meeting of top military brass. He asked one question to the Air Chief. And that question was "How long can you protect Pakistan's airspace in case of an attack by US?". The Air Chief replied "15-20 minutes". Musharraf replied..."Gentlemen, then we know what we have to do now". The rest is history.
I swear it was one of the most disappointing things I have heard recently.
So now tell me, what is the definition of "not that weak"?
I agree with Outlaw. This is a national shame how our govt is treating National Heroes like Dr.Abdul Qadeer Khan and other scientists. If any material was leaked, then there is no way “individual” scientists could have done that. Who are we kidding? Pak army and other agencies monitor these scientists day and night.
And let’s end this nonsense of greed as motive. Dr.Qadeer has no need for more money. I know that Dr.Qadeer once said that he doesn’t remember the last time he paid for a meal at a restaraunt.
Shame on our govt for defaming and mistreating our national heroes.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Sultan Suri: *
p.s I see people agreeing with what is happening, maybe because he is a Khan.
[/QUOTE]
He is also a mohajir.
Even better :- )
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Imdad Ali: *
He is also a mohajir.
[/QUOTE]
A true hero and indeed a founding father. If the CE does anything to man, i do hope he pays the ultimate price. You bow down to a bully he will keep coming after you. You stand up once and he will rarely come back a second time. Its about time Pakistan stood up.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
I swear it was one of the most disappointing things I have heard recently.
[/QUOTE]
What do you propose we should've done?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Madhanee: *
It appears that Pakistan is destined to become next North Korea. That'll be kinda cool
[/QUOTE]
Interesting. Remind me of this post the next time you go on a banter about Pakistan's lack of development.