India would NEVER attack Pak

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Re: India would NEVER attack Pak

Khushaalkhan, see I agree that India did not honour the promised plebescite, but Pakistan cannot claim self-righteousness because, unknown to most people, it too has not done justice to the Kashmiri people.

Pakistan speaks about wishes of the Kashmiri people and calls its Kashmir "Azad Kashmir", but under this facade is the reality that Pakistan itself writes the constitution of AJK and it forces the people of AJK to adhere to acceding to Pakistan only. Even talking about independence (true Azadi) is regarded as treason.

They don't have any representative government (either locally or in Islamabad), and army generals from Pakistan preside over most of the important posts in the government. The people cannot dissent against the Pakistani appointed government or Pakistan itself, and they cannot voice their opinion against them.
They do not have the facility of redressal of their grievances in any matter from the Supreme Court of Pakistan.

The situation in the NA is no different. The people have no voice either in forming a government, or local governing bodies or the judiciary (who are all puppets of Islamabad). They do not have any representation or an ambassador or even a sympathetic voice in Islamabad. The judiciary is closed to them. NA's status is not even well-defined in Pakistani constitution.

So AJK's Pakistani authored constitution, does not allow AJK or NA people to ask for independence, to ask for electing their own government, or to voice even an objection against the government.
Is this Azadi, and the "True wishes of the Kashmiris" ?

I hope that you know as a fact that people from AJK and NA, want to seccede from Pakistan to form a new nation. I agree that its the same case on the Indian side of the LoC.

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Re: India would NEVER attack Pak

According to Musharaff Pakistan wasn’t even involved in the Kargil War until a few years after the issue where he admitted it.

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Re: India would NEVER attack Pak

Abhiman, believe me thats not true, I am residing in AJK and I know the complete structure here.
AJK is a complete autonomous body, having their own constitution, their own political structure, their own Supreme Court. They have very meagre resources of their own, so most of their budget is augmented by Pakistan and a handsome amount is given to AJK Council.
So I dont know from where you picked up all the fabricated stories.
As far as Army is concern, I have seen the sentiments of the kashmiri people for the army. It is army who are undertaking all the developmental projects in AJK, and that's the reason that people have a lot of respect for Pakistan Army.
And you cant compare the situation in Occupied Kashmir and AJK, there people are living under the tyranny of Indian forces, who are constantly raping their women, torture their men and killing thousands of their youth.

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Re: India would NEVER attack Pak

India cannot afford a war & mess it's own future.
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I agree India has lots going for it and Indians are smart enough to know that there is no hope in hell for them to win a decisive war against Pakistan. There will be only one outcome of the future Indo-Pak war and that is " M A D ".
Mutually assured destruction

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Re: India would NEVER attack Pak


Well if I'm not mistaken Khushaalkhan, this constitution is written by Islamabad. 30 out of 31 candidates in the recent elections were debrared from contesting as they sought independence from Pakistan, but this constitution doesn't allow that.


Again correct me if I'm wrong but aren't most spots filled by retired generals selected in Pakistan ? Also AJK citizens cannot voice any dissent or even criticize Pakistani policies and Pakistani officials, else they might be prosecuted. They cannot appeal to the Supreme Court of Pakistan, which is unjust if Pakistan forces them to adhere to accession to Pakistan.

Since these courts adhere to the constitution of AJK (asserted by Pakistan), they are meaningless. They would have meaning if the constituion is written entirely by the people of AJK and without the intervention of an external party.


OK I agree with that.


*
OK. I'll take that also.


I agree that a few thousand youth have been killed in custody and Human Rights violations by the Indian security personnel continue, but they are politically better off than their AJK and NA counterparts.

They can vote in general and central elections.
The laws formulated by their elected representatives cannot be challenged by the President of India (this is not in other states)
They can reside and purchase property or conduct bussiness all over India, but Indians cannot reside or purchase property in Kashmir. This is the reason why its demographics are constant since 1947, unlike AJK or NA which are heavily populated by Punjabi or Pathan people.
They can address their grievances upto the Supreme Court of India.

Look, not all Kashmiris are millitants. There are thousands in police, army, government services, and private bussinesses. If you watch Sony TV, one Kashmiri boy won a singing competition that was telecast on that channel. The security of JKLF and Hurriyat leaders is paid for by the Government. They appear very other day on talk-shows, news channels, write articles in newspapers and the like.

TV channels show how ordinary people protested and shouted azadi slogans when the hanging of Afzal was announced. They show how people protest violently against "accidental" killings or custodial deaths. When a dirty racket was discovered in Kashmr, Dukhtaran-e-Millat protested, apperead on TV shows etc.

I agree that unwanted torture and killings have led to an estimated 8000 deaths/disappearences since 1988, but things are not THAT bad as Pakistani media showcases it to you.

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Re: India would NEVER attack Pak

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Well if I'm not mistaken Khushaalkhan, this constitution is written by Islamabad. 30 out of 31 candidates in the recent elections were debrared from contesting as they sought independence from Pakistan, but this constitution doesn't allow that.

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AJK Constitution is written and passed by AJK Constitutional Assembly and all the member of the assembly are Kashmiris. I dont know which 30 candidates you are talking about. But AJK Govt has its own Election Commission and the Chief Election Commissioner, his staff and subordinates are kashmiris and the govt of Pakistan has to do nothing with it.

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Again correct me if I'm wrong but aren't most spots filled by retired generals selected in Pakistan ?

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Though, there are many general officers from AJK but presently there are 49 MLAs and as per my information there is hardly a single general among them.
There is only one general officer in the entire bureaucratic setup of AJK and I think that is Secy Health. An army officer cant be in judiciary being unqualified for the task, AJK Chief Justice, and all other judges are from Judiciary.

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Also AJK citizens cannot voice any dissent or even criticize Pakistani policies and Pakistani officials, else they might be prosecuted. They cannot appeal to the Supreme Court of Pakistan, which is unjust if Pakistan forces them to adhere to accession to Pakistan.

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People raised their voices once they have some grievances, if there are no grievances why should they voice against someone. Govt of Pakistan cant force them to come out on streets and voice against them. Yes I have seen many protests but they are mainly launched against their own bureaucracy etc. Recently I have seen mostly Mullah's protests against the NGO's.

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Since these courts adhere to the constitution of AJK (asserted by Pakistan), they are meaningless. They would have meaning if the constituion is written entirely by the people of AJK and without the intervention of an external party.

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People dont write the constitution by their own, they elect representatives of their own choosing who form part of AJK Legislation Assemly and they are responsible for crafting of constitution. Just to elaborate the Kashmir setup:
The govt of AJK is run by the PM, presently there are total 49 seats in AJK Legislation Assembly and they all are Kashmiris.Besides this, there is AJK Council, consisting of the members from AJK and members from Pakistan National Assembly they all enjoy equal status. All the affairs of AJK are dealt by AJK Govt, however all the issues which are related to the Govt of Pakistan are dealt by AJK Council which has its own budget and working parameters. PM of Pakistan is the Chairman of the Council.

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unlike AJK or NA which are heavily populated by Punjabi or Pathan people
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That is also not correct. There is hardly any difference between Punjabis and Kashmiris, most of them are from the same cast, while on the other hand the ex PM of Pakistan Mian Nawaz Sharif was a Kashmiri and in present govt of Pakistan setup there are many Kashmiris. As far as Pathans are concern, so they are only there for low sallary jobs, like labour, fruit/vegetable sellers like in all parts of Pakistan being less educated and more hardworking.

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Re: India would NEVER attack Pak

Khushaalkhan, Mazhar and Abhiman,

All your posts are worth reading and I really gained a great bit of info from your posts.
I would humbly post that both countries need to talk thru dialogues and come on a consensus for Kashmir whether it be thru referendum or mutual consent between two nations.
I'm a Kashmiri born in Lahore but my ancestors were from Kashmir thus I'm a Kashmiri/Punjabi as many of us are. Now, I don't really understand why both countries are spending millions of dollars of their GDP solely for the purpose of defense and we know that a huge chunk is for Kashmir's defense.
I believe if Kashmir is given autonomy under Pakistan or if Kashmiris want an autonomous Kashmir, we should all welcome and move on. We both Pakistan and India have a such a huge talented breed that we can move on and make the world's big engineering, technological and business markets. Let the hatred continue to diminish under. Pres. Gen. Musharraf and Mr. Singh and move on with more important issues like poverty and education and everyone in our nations will get the ripened fruits of economical ascendency.

Umer

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Re: India would NEVER attack Pak

good post umer

abhiman, some things cited by you are true some are not.

Northern Areas people have grieviences for not having their own executive body and against KANA (kashmir and Northern Areas) ministry, but spare three individuals no one is talking about independence. why three as once i was deputed for conducting an entrance examination for teachers in Gakuch town, i met two gentlemen who were raising their voices against the procedure adopted, i told them to go and file a case in chief's court as the education ministry rules were all fulfilled. On inquiry later on i found from deputy commissioner that there are three lone warriors (2 in gilgit + one in skardu) in whole northern areas asking for a balwaristan movement. i have frequently been going to northern areas for my official duties and i have never found any trace of any movement. These there were provided some funds by Indians so that they can keep their news filled with balwaristan news. (Indians were not generous donors though for them).

Azad Kashmir has no independence movement per se. Like on your side Kashmiris are one of the richest class, a lot of them being settled in UK and abroad. in AJK like Khushaal has said, Army has done a lot of developmental work and unlike in Indian occupied (or held, names do not mean anything) kashmir, there is simply no resentment against Army. About Army personnel getting appointed and centre enforcing its writ, this crib is in whole Pakistan not only in Kashmir.

About Punjabis settling there, no this is propaganda, we have heard on this side of the border that India settled a lot of kashmiri Pandits who left kashmir on their own long time back, but our kashmiris as pointed out by khushaal are too many in punjab and cannot go back and vote in any future hypothetical plebiscite. otherwise india can never win as all the sialkot and gujrat filled with them. (sialkot was only link to kashmir before partition)

still i think we should make peace and live happily. no need to take help from these mercenaries, they have used Pakistan more than Pakistan has used them

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Re: India would NEVER attack Pak

I never heard of this "Balwaristan Movement". I heard of "Baltistan Movement" which is grossly inflated by Indian Media. However this "Balwaristan" is totally new to me. Would you like to shed some light, please

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Re: India would NEVER attack Pak

Khushaal there is no baltistan movement

Its name as propagated by Indian media is Balwaristan Movement. we do not know about it because it exists only in Indian Media. I once used to be a very frequent visitor of Northern Areas and there i accidently found these gentlemen. You understand that India knows that there is no chance of a successful independence movement in Northern Areas given the sentiments people have for Pakistan (Northern Area people are very proud that they earned their own independence by fighting against the then government and they staunchly refuse they have any thing to do with Kashmir) but to keep their people indoctrinated and keep the issue in news, they provide limited funds to this small group of people to periodically issue some press releases & few protest statements. That's all about it.

OMG OMG
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Re: India would NEVER attack Pak

Firstly, one important event took place in Srinagar yesterday, which was the passing out parade of Jammu & Kashmir Light Infantry.

Here are some pix :

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/photo.cms?msid=309599
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/photo.cms?msid=309598

The constitution is written by Pakistan and acknowledged by the AJK constituion in Article III. I have given references later in this post.

Thirty or thirty-one candidates from JKLF’s AJK faction were banned from contesting the elections as they refused to agree to AJK’s accession to Pakistan. According to AJK constitution articles 2 and 7, all Kashmiris must adhere to the ideology of Pakistan and must not ask for independence. I have given all references ahead.

Human Rights Watch :

A columnist from the Pakistani newspaper Jang has attempted to answer these points n an article devoted exclusively on AJK and NA :

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Re: India would NEVER attack Pak

There is no doubt abhiman that there are legal and constitutioanl problems in running the affairs of Kashmir & Northern Areas.

But surprisingly people are not protesting vigorously like they are doing in Indian Controlled Kashmir which may have better constitutional status than our side of kashmir. Very few people talk about it and others are generally concerned about other issues (this is my impression, correct me if i am wrong). I believe though that Government of Pakistan may have less credibility than Government of India in the minds of Kashmiris, the state of Pakistan has more (purely my opinion)

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Re: India would NEVER attack Pak

As per my information, the present IGP, Chief Secretary and Chief Justice and all other justices are from AJK. Yes I agree, most of them are dwelling in Kashmir House in Islamabad. But then it is equally good for all other officers of this status appointed in other parts of Pakistan.
There are some Lent Officers but they are only few and most of them are in AJK Council.
AJK is not an independent state rather an autonomous body. I agree the constitution may be exactly the same as that of Pakistan but the constitution is formally passed by their Legislative Assembly.
As far as other rules and regulations are concern, they are mostly in line with those of Pakistan. But the rules of Pakistan are not applicable to AJK, rather they always passed such rules whenever necessary by their own Legislative Assembly.
As far as Army interference is concern, so that was applicable to the whole country. It was never like this before, rather when Pervez Musharraf took over, Army took the rein of all civil departments in their own hands.
One thing more, During election campaign I have met people, the main criterion of voting a candidate is the issue of Kashmir itself. They like those who are more sincere with Kashmir cause.

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Re: India would NEVER attack Pak

Moreover, I have generally found that the people of kashmir are more proud Pakistanis than others. I have seen them more sentimental and emotional when it comes to Pakistan's integrity and honour.