Immigrants will never understand.

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1

I am posting this topic, in defense to all of us Indians or Pakistani’s who were born and raised in the West.

I have heard many times, people flaming us Indian/Pakistani’s born in the America’s as having limited knowledge of our roots, our language and our culture. This tends to be words coming from the various immigrant populous.

I would like to clearly state, that yet I am born and raised in the America’s. My parents are IMMIGRANTS. I didn’t naturally become born here, I am a child of immigrants, just like EVERYONE else in this country.

Having said that. I would like to tell you a story, of how much us non-immigrants, fought for IMMIGRANT rights, and protection of what we most value dearly – our culture The very culture you claim we don’t understand.

Us non-immigrants, have lived in these countries, and learned exactly what this country is made of. Immigrants think they had of racism, and fascism, and hatred. They have had NOTHING compared to what we have endured.

I’m born and raised here, and lived in Canada over 20 years. Growing up here, especially my childhood, would clearly show you what MOST immigrants have yet not experienced. (this is just a few examples from my youth)

I will begin, when I was 6 years old. Going to school, in kindgergarten. On my way to school, I would always constantly be harassed by the white children, they would call me “paki” day in and day out. My grandmother would commonly walk me to school used to be harassed by these kids, and also be called “paki”, they would throw snowballs at us all the time. Not just the white children, but even the ADOLESCENTS and teenagers (whom of course at that time I would fear, since they were bigger)

In school, the teachers would NEVER make an effort to stop this. I remember, I was 1 of perhaps 12 other indians students in my entire school (well over 1000). Back then, schools had their option of a Christian prayer AFTER the National Anthem (which most schools always used to use) (which is now typically moment of silence). In grade 1, they gave me a letter to give to my parents indicating that I had a rebellious attitude toward school policy. They claim that I would not participate in the prayers that follow the national anthem. I would have gladly participated, however I never even knew the damn words!! And being the only kid, and being shy because I was different, I would just stay silent not knowing what to do.

I remember, one time when I finally made some friends who were similar to me, they were Sikh theists. I remember clearly in grade 1, when some white boys came aroudn and started yanking on his turban, and asked him repeatebly if what was in his pakta (turban) was sh*t. We would get fight back in retaliation, and it would be us who gets in trouble. For all you Muslims. White Boys would also harass the older Muslim girls, and always harass them and ask them why they are covering their face, is it because they’re ugly? Is it because Paki’s are ugly??? Teachers WERE THERE and WATCHING, they DID NOTHING, they ruled out that what happens in the school is simply children horseplay. Now, that would NEVER be tolerated.

There was indeed ALOT of RACISM, ALOT OF HATRED toward us. Afterall, when I grew up, the population of Immigrants and non-whites was VERY LOW. Now, Immigrants come into this country all honky dory, thinking that what they are treated to now might be bad or not bad, and credit themselves for this. When they forget. It is US, and OUR PARENTS who changed the system to accomodate them. We are the ones, who REMOVED the Christian prayer aftr the National Anthem and made it a MOMENT OF SILENCE (although I think that should be rid of). We are the ONES WHO REMOVED Head TAX on Immigrants. We are the ones RESPONSIBLE for making it an EASIER LIFE FOR YOU. WE ARE THE ONES who built all our RELIGIOUS institutions, Gurdwara’s, Mosques, Mandirs. The born and raised Indians/or whatever colour, and we and our parents worked hard to KEEP our IDENTITY, our CULTURE, and OUR RELIGIONS (if any) from being persecuted.

Yet, what pisses me off is, when someone who is an immigrant claims we know nothing of our roots, language, culture. When yet we are a product of each of our own two Immigrants, and we DEFEND and are essentially the TRUE destroyers of oppression on Immigrants. If my parents and many other non-imgrants, parents didn’t come to these countries earlier. We all would be living life, how it was 20-25 years ago. You can believe me, it is nothing to what it is now. And I can say for people who are from not Toronto, had even WORSE scenariosu. Out of all cities in North America, Toronto is the first to still adapt to the immigrat community. And even, Toronto was bad. I feel for those who grew up in other places. They must have gone through worse.

Anyhow, my words are. Before you go flaming non-immigrants, just remember what they did for you.

Arai

p.s. My father is one of the founding members of the EIDC (East Indian Defence Committee). (When I say Indian, I include pakistani, and all brown people in general)When white people would come around Indian people’s home, and damager their cars, homes, set fire to things, or beat up non-whites for just being who they are. That’s where they stepped in. Cops never helped us, they never cared. That’s why EIDC essentially in Toronto became the POLICE to protect our rights. THINGS have alot changed since then, and society has changed enough that we don’t need to recruit our own police type force (EIDC) anymore. But groups like this helped all of us, get paved the way for our society to work, and live in this country equallly.

2

Arai, you are totally correct, dude. I grew up on Queens, N.Y. The "Paki" label that you faced was a reflection of the attitude from the British. We, on the U.S. side, faced a different, but essentially the same, label: Hindu. I have known people get mugged, murdered, beaten, kicked, sucker-punched, etc. Some communities in N.Y.C. raised their own defence committees similar to your EDIC. There was similar to the Asian "gangs" in South Hall, London.

But, all immigrants have faced respective persecutions during earlier times. Asians are the latest wave of immigrants. Immigrants of all nationalities and colors have fought for their rights. The Americas are countries built largely by mohajirs. Each successive generation will live easier then the previous one.

You are right in saying that the recent mohajirs "flaming us Indian/Pakistani's born in the America's as having limited knowledge of our roots, our language and our culture. This tends to be words coming from the various immigrant populous." I have lived in U.S. for 28 yrs. But, I lived in a place much larger then Toronto. N.Y. was a melting pot and still is, but there was an open animosity against the people from the sub-continent. The animosities on the U.S. side had different roots then what you described for Canada. The Asians came in began to spread out on the local commercial horizons: the newspaper stands, the motels, the local candy shops, taxis, etc.

I see our future changing in that we will feel connected to Pakistan and India by heritage. Our language will slowly transform to English as the common medium. When this happens, the our cultural identity will face increasing risks of being obliterated for language is the bridge that binds one to his/her ancestral culture. There is a thread on this in family life forum.

Life surely was unimaginable during the 70's, specially in Canada.

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I think this stupid approach of ABCDs and BBCDs XXCDs will never stop, neither would FOBs. But I would say ..... please stop if ur background is Pakistani then learn about your background, culture & history. For FOBs, I would say be what u are, dont try to be XXCDs or Goray, u cant be. (XX I am using to generalise).

One message for the XXCDs & and for those who migrated with their parents or grand parents. Whatever u say, its not easy to migrate, if ur parents or grand parents migrated ask them how much problems did they face to give u a good future, so these FOBs are doing for their children to give them good future. Secondly to learn about the culture, its a basic principle that u have to live there in that culture for three consective years (I think u know what I am saying).

Ciao.

[This message has been edited by Najim (edited November 12, 2000).]

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arai....my family went through the same thing. Our elementry school was predominantly white...all the teachers were white and they basically stuck up for the "gora" crowd. There were only 2 teachers that I had that treated everyone fair and square.

My 2 sibilings and I went through the same grade 8 teacher. He was a racist. Awards were taken away from us at graduation even though we were told we had won. Grades were lowered...and my parents were treated badly on parent teacher nights.

You're right again about the Lord's Prayer...I remember having to learn it. As a matter of fact..i still remember parts of it.

But you know...even in those days (the 80s)..there were some ppl who were curious and interested in what Islam and what the Pakistani culture was all about. International days and speach arts were the best times to bring out who we were and what we were all about...

When i first went to highschool...Lester B. Pearson C.I. in the Malvern area of Scarborough..I was in total shock...the student body was totally different from the one in elementry school. Here the population was 99% BROWN.

So I guess you could say I've had the best / worst of both worlds.

You know when our parents came here...they couldn't even walk around in shalwar kameez or find halal meat stores or anything like that...because it just wasn't "done". Now look...ppl are wearing shalwar kameez left and right....there are 44 mosques in the GTA (Greater Toronto Area)...halal meat stores everywhere...and Gerrard St.

Our parents were the ones who broke the barrier and brought the culture and relgion in. Not only to the Rest of N.A....but to US..the children.

"............beauty is life when life unveils her holy face, But you are life and you are the veil. Beauty is eternity gazing at itself in the mirror, But you are eternity and you are the mirror."

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You know its very easy to sit here and talk about what problems people went thru and did not go thru. I personally been here consider myself very very lucky.
Why you might ask.. Just think about it. why did people leave thier home land, thier birth place, what was the cause.

Well in most cases it was to find a better life for themselves and thier family. (and I include myself in that). If people left thier homes for a better life how can you even talk about having it worse then those back home.
The very place they left cause they did not get that. yes there is racism, but thats all over the world. at the same time you have security, you have your votes , you have your judicial system that works, you have food even in a depression.

yes they dont have to go thru the rasicm that you have to go thru over here in the west, but frankly they just dont live that long you know to care about that. In the past five years each time my friends come over to the USA they tell me of someone new whos dead, not because they were sick or anything, but becuase they just did not have the money to buy food , the money to go to the docter, the lack or water. I mean I have seen people die of Diarhia, an easly treatable disease here.

Just think about it, if those countries are so wonderful why do people want to leave for the west.

yes FOBS or whatever you call them are wrong in saying that ABCDs dont know thier roots. Indeed they know them very well cause they were forced when they came here to forge out thier identity as they could not just simply belong as you can back home. but you can not even for one minute tell me that you or your parents did more over here then these people who have to basically feed themselves from hand to mouth. You know theres is diet my friend refers to as a 1-0-0. it means you eat breakfast and then eat breakfast the next day. So give them some respect. yes they are wrong in stating somethings but you can not tell me that the racisim that you have suffered here compares with what people have to go thru back home.

here you are talking about improving society, there you are talking about people simply making it through the day and waking up alive the next day!!!.

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Hinna. Most definitely, the late 80's changed the face of Canada.

You're right about those festival things that happened. Those were really the only times when our views, beliefs and cultures were typically expressed.

I never knew that Scarborough was densly populated with Indians back then. Back then, Indians used to be mostly in downtown toronto, and the majority from what I know, when into the North York area, specifically Weston/Finch area. That is where I grew up in my early childhood years. I am aware of Scarborough having brown populations, but 99%.. at Lester B Pearson.. Wow, hehe right now that is heavy populated with Orientals (by the way, do you know Barjinder Shahi, also known as Bicky?).....

Anyhow, as for the rest who just came to this counry recently. All I can say is, you guys have it LUCKY... VERY LUCKY

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Well nayela_k I think that you are totally correct in saying that people are living a better opportunity rich life in the WEST and have faced less in the way of physical suffering but, I don't think that you are talking about the rich people back home. Those are the ones who have the ability to come to America!!!

Sure ALOT of people have nothing to eat but really, those people are not the ones who come to America and continue to live the life of luxury with all the opportunities this land has to offer!!! My argument is against them, bringing their diseased pompous minds to America and thinking its always been this easy to just roll in and setup shop while questioning the entire system Pakistanis have established here!!!

Arai, Jannu, Najim and Hinna are totally correct in listing the barriers which had to be broken!!!

I can recall first coming to live in America, I was 5 or so and we used to go to school in old thrift store clothes with only a sandwich and a packet of ketchup (that I would take from my spanish classmate who bought lunch), compared to my american peer's elaborate meals, in our 50 cent shoes which were half ripped anyways and our make shift backpacks my mother made from old bedsheets...needless to say, **we didn't fit in **and it wasnt an easy life for anyone!
Now its excellent that people are given money and clothes from the mosque and community centers here, but it hasn't always been like that!!!

Now that my parents are established and we are allhumdhulilla living a very decent life because people are more accepting of us immigrants. So from the five other muslim families who used to meet at each others houses to pray and keep with our roots to the present glorious mosque we have built, its been a long and bumpy ride!

But everywhere I look, there are people coming left and right from Pakistan, with no worries about the hardships we faced...all they are concerned with is buying big expensive cars, nautica clothes and a big house with a 52" TV AND criticising the way the older(thats us) immigrants did things wrong and how there are so many barriers. HELLO!!! They dont see how we are now living in an openminded society that has just come to accept us!!! Sure there is still bigotary but it is less then 5% of what we faced 20 years ago...even now, I am so surprised as to how accepting people are now as compared to before when we were in much lower numbers!!!

So sure come to America and establish yourself with full opportunity BUT do not question the people who have pioneered the way for the rest!!!

btw- arai, you have a bike I assume(or at least the leathers:))?

8

I Agree with Arai, and i haven't read most of the other posts but "Immigrants will never understand" is a lousy topic. Discriminattion is faced by each and every child, and it's a normal part of growing up. It's not just in the Americas' that you find this but all over the world. Kids growing up in pakistan go through the same torture, if not more. It's not like they are automatically accepted in this brotherhood. I was Born and raised in Saudi Arabia and they used to call us " rafiq " there. Now in arabic that means friend, but the way it was used was in the sense of a "poor friend", and believe me it wasn't a compliment. Pakistanis were kicked outta playgrounds and in masjids the other boys would drag you from front rows in to back rows. Now those were kids being kids and there was a lot more going on that i won't mention here.

So prejiduce is everywhere sir and i would like to add that even in pakistan, in schools you are kicked out of a group and made fun of if your parents are fron india, or sindhis are discriminated against 'cause they speak urdu in a different way, same with memons and every1 else.

So I don't wanna put u down , but don't think that just 'cause u have experienced it no one else has.

Na Hota mein, Tu Kya Hota

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nope sorry arai ...I don't know Bicky.. :)

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Wadi. I am not saying that you didn't go through anything. Of course, being a child, it is normal to become bullied, especially if you're a minority.

I agree with Piaz. Our families who came here, paved the way and the best word as she/he? puts it is "pioneered" the way for the rest of the immigrant populous. I don't think you will ever understand how life here was in the 70's and early 80's. Especially being a youth, and being different. It wasn't easy. Right now, I sometimes am quite jealous how even our own people have it SO EASY here, when we had to go through so much. But, yet I am happy, because I know if it weren't for people like us, life for immigrants now wouldn't be very acceptive. Immigrants of the 70's and 80's truly reformed this country from what it was. You know, all you need to look at is old footage of USA and Canada back in the 70's and 80's, and tell me how many brown people do you see. You will probably not see as many as you would now, if you were to look at these places now through a camera. Never has there been so many brown people representing on TV, movies, commercials, businesses, politics ever before. It is more conforting to feel that you have your communities support when you need it. Back then, it would be common that during election times, none of the local candidates would ever visit your house, since they would feel your vote is unimportant. Now, that is changed.. Now all these candidates, walk aroudn wearing our traditional clothing, turbans (LOL) and otehr religious garments or cultural garments to show us how acceptive and how great they get along with our community. Back then, they would never do such a thing.

I remember my dad, he used to carry one of those field hockey sticks in his back trunk. Back then, if you got into a fender bender with a white guy, they usually would rather duke it out, then call the cops or sort it our civilized (as they would do if they get in fender benders with people of their own community), sicne they like to kick some 'paki' as*. Now, they wouldn't even dare to such a thing, when they see how strong our communities are.

Simply, this post was just in regard to those people who think the ones born, or raised here are LESS EASTERN than they are. If we were LESS EASTERN, you could be assured we would have assimilated with the white community, probably would have converted to their religions, follow their cultures and customs. Through all of this, we retained who we are, we even in WHITE majority area's, build our religious or community organizations, to prove that we are here to STAY and aren't leaving any time soon.

Arai

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[quote]
Originally posted by piaz:
*Sure there is still bigotary but it is less then 5% of what we faced 20 years ago...even now, I am so surprised as to how accepting people are now as compared to before when we were in much lower numbers!!!
*
[/quote]

What bugs me today is the illegal immegration that has spoiled our name. I have decided to call the authorities next time I come to know an illegal immegrant. I refuse to support them. I work hard for the money and I do not want my money squandered on these people who, for the most part, are leeches on the society.

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Actually, I disagree strongly with the gist of this post.

It was immigrants who had to go through all the pioneering stuff that Piaz and arai are talking about in the first place. Not the kids who were born and raised in the West.

I agree that today's immigrants come looking for the good life, but the first generation are the one's who had to scrape livings and build the infrastructure we have today. As they were also immigrants, I don't think kids born and raised here have any right to push their own virtues at their expense.

I think in general, immigrants are a lot more hard working than western born kids.

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So you think us Born-raised children didn't do anything?

I'll list you a few things, what groups of born-raised youths here did (specially brown youth). And some of which I was a part of.

  • Removed the Lord's prayer after the national anthem. This was done, and should be given credit to the colloboration of Indian and Chinese students. I can't remember the organization responsible for this, but I believe it was an Atheist organization.

  • EIDC ( East Indian Defence Committee), although started by our parents. It was the majority of the youth, who were born and raised here who continnued to RUN this. This literally PROTECTED us, from racists.

  • Marxist-Lenninst Youth Party of Canada, (let me also add that, this was party was started by a brown guy (Hardial Bains son), and the majority of the people in the group NOW happen to be white (primarily polish), yet the leadership remain Indian) I was a member of this, we are the ones who increased MINIMUM WAGE for student workers. Yes, it was once at $4/hour. Raised to 6.50$/hour which was quite good back then for a student.

  • UNICEF.
    We fundraised, alot of money just to send back home to India, to help these hypocrites. UNICEF encouraged, ALL youths of all colours to help everyone, and they were quite supportative of the immigrant movement.

  • Royal Canadian Air Cadets. Which I was a member of, I represented the only brown person in the Air Cadets, to have earned a private pilot license through this program. In addition, a friend of mine a few years later (he wore a turban) joined the air cadets, and dismantled their policy of the Air Cadets and to accodomate the turban for the first time. Me, and many other brown guys, showed the Canadian Air Force that we're BETTER than their own people, and I was enlisted into the Air Force, and bypassed Ensign rank when I was 18, I declined, since I wished to pursue University education, and had no keen interest in the Air Force, except for getting my RCAF-RPS.

SASO - South Asian Society Organization. These are people, who created by youths in (1983?), eliminited the HEAD tax, that was imposed on Asian immigrants. Especially for the ones that arrived in Vancouver, by sea.

I really can go on forever. I can't remember many of the names, or dates, or everything accurately, since alot of this happened so long ago. But, it is just proof that we are active citizens of canadian society, even not being wanted initially, we did alot not just for brown people but even for Canada itself. And this is when Canada really started to acknowledge the brown community for their achievements in helping Canadian society as a whole.

Don't tell me my parents did everything for us, and we all lived a spoiled life. You're COMPLETELY wrong on that. We didn't come into these countries in mansions, or 350,000$ hosues like we have now. Many people look at us now, and think we're spoiled. I hear that alot. But, what they SEE NOW is what TOOK us OVER 20 YEARS TO BUILD!! All this we have didn't come out of the sky, and now immigrants get jealous, and claim they work harder blah blah. They don't even know half of it. When you see all of us settled in these countries, doing fine education, driving perhaps nice cars. It is our reward, for what we put in. By the way, I've been working since I was 8 years old, doing odd jobs, like delivering papers, working in an ice cream shop etc.. being paid cash. These days, youth in India, especially the ones who have relatives aboard, don't even know what WORK IS, since they're being funded by their relatives abroad, all they do is sit on their lazy as* and go around the local collges and hang with their boys or whatever.. (some of my cousins back in India, are such good examples of this)..

Point is.. To say we didn't work, to say we don't deserve how we live, is completely false, and I condsider it an offense.. I know what it was like, and I know how EASY people have it now, and I hate it especially when immigrants now who complain about their situation, since most immigrants now, come on the basis that they have money, or they have relatives here and are sponsored (through marriage, or family). These immigrants have a backend support, and really have no worries since they already have relatives here who can help them.

This wasn't true 20 years ago.

Arai

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Arai man, I don't know...sure WE had it tough and had to fight the system with limited support, but that is what molded us into wht we are, be it considered less 'DESI'...but I also think that its like that all over the world. Say we had been raised back home, i'm sure there were other potential problems brewing which needed attention and have been solved by those who lived there. Sure 'we'(not me I was too young) were pioneers, but isn't anyone who takes bold steps and makes a change?

Also, because there were so few of us here before in the west, it was like an automatic brotherhood where every brown face was a friendly one. I cannot even count the number of times some desi stranger gave us a free taxi ride or free groceries or whatever. BUT back home, eventhough its your own people, its not like that...all i'm saying from reading other posts is that it has been tough for everyone BUT I especially give respect to the people who had enough courage to come here and change their entire way of life when the tides were rough and America was not such a livable place for any non-white immigrant!

15

Xtreme the issues faced by people were of different nature and at different stages in life. Surely the immigrants faced tons of challenges, racism, building a life from scratch, getting acquainted to a new culture, new language etc etc. But one thing they had in their favor was that they had grown up and had a mature outlook in most cases.

Its entirely different for a western born kid who goes to school and is harrassed and teased because he/she is different. US schools in specific are known for cliques and making people feel like outcasts. The emotional impact of that is i8mmense as well specially cuz the kids are in their formative years and such taunting and harrassment can do a number of self confidence etc. At the same time they have to defend their culture and differences to people who in most cases are not really interested in learning but areusing the differences to mock these desi kids.

Sure we face similar challenges when we are older and local born ppl are usually better equipped to deal with them and have a support structure as well as familiarity with the way of life here which new immigrants struggle with. But these local born ppl paid the price of being different and have either come out of it stronger or buckled under the pressure and gave up their identity.

Either way the hardship the local born youth face should not be understated.