If God exists!

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: If God exists!

To Hahahaha......

One pronouncing the shahadah means that one has submitted to Islam.
Islam (submission) means that one accepts all that is in the religion as is prescribed. Ones calling himself/herself a muslim means they have accepted Islam and is submitted to Allah swt.
there are a few places in Quran that I dont remember now where exactly, where it does say that do not indulge in finding answers about Allah swt, it will set you more off the path and into sin...... and it is beyond our inteligence to think of it also.
Lets take the example of the Jews in the Surah Baqarah, the Jews constant questioning about the cow's feature. Lets not be that. If you have accepted Islam, follow the 5 pillars as has been prescribed, and set the evil thoughts out of you heart. It is surely the Shaitan that is scrambling your mind.
One more note.....On the Day of Judgement, when all the beings and the Malika will be dead, Allah swt will ask the Angel of Death, is there anyone that is still alive. The Angel of Death will reply, " No My Lord, except me and the "Everlasting YOU". The Allah swt will ask the Angel of Death, "you have taken everyones life, now it is your turn to taste Death, and with the permission of Allah swt the Angel of Death will take his soul, then it will be no one except Allah swt. and HE will ask in a loud voice "Is there anyone one who is the King here"....after finding no answer...( because there will be none)....HE will rise us again. This itself is a big daleel that he is the everlasting, and HE surely exists.
Clean up your mind, my friend and take the evil thoughts out of your mind. do a lot of Istaghfar, and SUBMIT.

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Re: If God exists!

Peace Seminole

Spoken like a truly Godless person ... In the Qur'an it states one does not believe untill they believe in Allah and his Messenger. Your argumentation alludes to this ... Now let's answer your questions ...

You ask:
"why does God require constant worship from His entities?"

Answer: He doesn't ... you have created this condition in your own mind. God has created everything for the purpose to worship Him ... I didn't say that He needed us, what must be understood from this is that the creation needs The Creator and thus that need is inherent to worship.

"why would he have put forth at least 3 attempts at Holy Scripture to convince us He does exist?"

Answer: God did not attempt us to be guided by scripture. If He wished it we could be stunned in His Majesty's Presence and all would stand dumbfounded and unable to do anything but He has given us a life where we can make a choice of faith. If we can see Him then the choice for faith becomes redundant it will be a case for certainty of sight and the choice will be removed from us. He sent messengers to guide humanity out of Mercy, because without them the odds are stacked heavily against us. The fact that the prophets made attempts (not God), shows the reluctance of the people not the inaptness of God (audzubillah)

"Why would He have blasphemy laws for those who don't believe? "

Answer: Anyone who disobeys God's Legislative Command deserves to be given punishment for their own good. It would lessen the Punishment in the Hereafter. However, your question is wrong. Nowhere in Islam does it sanction the legal punishment of people who don't believe.

"Why is there a divine law that we are all supposed to follow?"

Answer: Because God made us all ... all with the same purpose in life.

~*~ Tagged - IS ~*~
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Your assumptions are incorrect as is your interpretation as to what defines belief in God. I am not Godless at all, my belief in God is very firm. I just don't believe in your Quranical version or that Muhammed was his last and greatest messenger.

[quote]
You ask:
"why does God require constant worship from His entities?"

Answer: He doesn't ... you have created this condition in your own mind. God has created everything for the purpose to worship Him ... I didn't say that He needed us, what must be understood from this is that the creation needs The Creator and thus that need is inherent to worship.
[/quote]
Sorry, but if your belief is that he created us to worship him, then that implies he does require constant worship. Why else would he have done so? It surely isn't my belief however. That implies a weakness in God. A power as great as God doesn't need or require constant worship. That sounds more like a pet that requires constant petting, not the omnipotence of God.

[quote]
"why would he have put forth at least 3 attempts at Holy Scripture to convince us He does exist?"

Answer: God did not attempt us to be guided by scripture. If He wished it we could be stunned in His Majesty's Presence and all would stand dumbfounded and unable to do anything but He has given us a life where we can make a choice of faith. If we can see Him then the choice for faith becomes redundant it will be a case for certainty of sight and the choice will be removed from us. He sent messengers to guide humanity out of Mercy, because without them the odds are stacked heavily against us. The fact that the prophets made attempts (not God), shows the reluctance of the people not the inaptness of God (audzubillah)
[/quote]
Then why this promise of the Quran being complete and accurate for the remainder of history? Everything about that belief implies these believers were being convinced by God to believe in him. Combine that with the horrible threats if we don't, and my statement stands. He is trying to convince us (assuming one believes in the holiness of the Quran)

[quote]
"Why would He have blasphemy laws for those who don't believe? "

Answer: Anyone who disobeys God's Legislative Command deserves to be given punishment for their own good. It would lessen the Punishment in the Hereafter. However, your question is wrong. Nowhere in Islam does it sanction the legal punishment of people who don't believe.
[/quote]
It isn't my questin or understanding that is wrong. That is the belief of many Muslims, including those who want to make it part of shariah law.

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Re: If God exists!

bahi meray , whenever normal man thinks of some God , he thinks figuratively , but when some one tryies to check that out , is he really a god soon he finds out that , no he donot fits on the GOD
and he turns out to be ethist in the end

and you know there are two types of mentality one who say "yes sir" and second who always say "why this etc"
and second one normally goes to ethist

you will agree with me uptill now
and this is what islam says to think
and when people think they leave all gods
thats why in kalma we get "there is no god"

this is useless statement for a "yes sir" type mentality but most important statement for the other one. and unless he is not sure of this statement that there is no god , he can't proceed to "but God" because unless answer to the first question will not be solved for him , his mind do not let him proceed

it is now upto you how you take it

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Re: If God exists!

Peace Seminole

It was not my assumption. The Qur'an clearly states this. You may profess to a belief and you may call it strong, but the Qur'an gives us insight in to how you deceive yourself. I will say it again you have no belief until you believe in One God and Muhammad (SAW) as His Messenger.

The purpose of humanity is to worship Allah (SWT) ... Allah (SWT) has no premise ... that is the belief of Islam. You can try to push the issue until you go blue in the face. It will not make it true. There is a condition that if God Created us to worship Him, it doesn't mean that he requires it. It can also fall into other categories other than requirement. You only feel it is implicit as a requirement because you view the concept of God through the eyes of a human. Logically there is no link between purpose and requirement.

e.g. The purpose of the pen is to write with it, however, it doesn't mean that writing is necessary life can go on without us writing anything. Get over it!

The Qur'an is never said to be complete ... i.e. the Words of God are not ALL in the Qur'an. However, for our purpose in life Islam is complete and the Qur'an is sufficient for all of our affairs including the Sunnah for contextualisation and understanding.

The reason for preserving the Qur'an is with Allah (SWT) however we can conclude that there are no more prophets to come so the message will do good being in tact. You see them as threats, but Muslims see them as warnings ... the Qur'an gives guidance and misguidance remember that. A warning is for the safety of the human, but a threat is for the interest of the one who threats. Since Allah (SWT) does not need our worship it is only in our interest that we worship Him. He will not lose out by us not worshipping Him, but we will if we don't.

Again your understanding of the Qur'an is very wrong and that is why you are still not a Muslim either that or you are lying to yourself. Not my words the Words of the Qur'an!

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Peace meherealone and Hahahaha

I think what meherealone is saying is absolutely correct. According to the framework of logical arguments. The absoluteness of the argument "there is no god, but God" is far more clinical than the statement "There is God". The latter implies no absoluteness.

The first part is agreeing with the people who look to science that with all of our faculties humans cannot see, hear, interact with God. If our observations are limited to the objective world then we will always come back with "no god" however, the "But God" indicates that upon conclusion of the signs of God even though there is no direct measurement of God indicates that there must be a God that is beyond us ... in Arabic we call this the Ghaib or the Hidden. It is by that Ghaib that we can account for God is All-Powerful, because outside that Ghaib we can see nothing that is All-Powerful, but we have to conclude that All-Powerful needs to be manifest in order for the Universe that we live in to exist ... And so on. Therefore you will notice that Unique and Absolute and Befitting characteristics are all Names of Allah (SWT).

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Well then the Quran is clearly wrong and your assumption that it is right is what is wrong. Either that or your interpretation of the Quran is wrong. Either way, you are wrong. Your belief in God holds no superior position to my belief in God.

[quote]
The purpose of humanity is to worship Allah (SWT) ... Allah (SWT) has no premise ... that is the belief of Islam. You can try to push the issue until you go blue in the face. It will not make it true. There is a condition that if God Created us to worship Him, it doesn't mean that he requires it. It can also fall into other categories other than requirement. You only feel it is implicit as a requirement because you view the concept of God through the eyes of a human. Logically there is no link between purpose and requirement.
[/quote]
We obviously pray to different Gods as you point out in your first paragraph. We also believe in a different purpose for humanity and that God needs (or requires or demands) constant worship from puny humans. So I guess all this is for naught. We aren't talking apples vs. apples apparently.

[quote]
e.g. The purpose of the pen is to write with it, however, it doesn't mean that writing is necessary life can go on without us writing anything. Get over it!
[/quote]
What a silly comparsion. So, the purpose of humans is to worship God, however that doersn't mean that worshippoing God is necessary life can go on without us worshipping God? What point does that make?

[quote]
The Qur'an is never said to be complete ... i.e. the Words of God are not ALL in the Qur'an. However, for our purpose in life Islam is complete and the Qur'an is sufficient for all of our affairs including the Sunnah for contextualisation and understanding.
[/quote]
Apparently it is not since there are so many interpretations by different sects. Besides don't surahs 6:38 and 6:114 state the Quran is complete?

[quote]
The reason for preserving the Qur'an is with Allah (SWT) however we can conclude that there are no more prophets to come so the message will do good being in tact. You see them as threats, but Muslims see them as warnings ... the Qur'an gives guidance and misguidance remember that. A warning is for the safety of the human, but a threat is for the interest of the one who threats. Since Allah (SWT) does not need our worship it is only in our interest that we worship Him. He will not lose out by us not worshipping Him, but we will if we don't.
[/quote]
If he doesn't need our worship, then how does he gain? There are many other things God could require us to do that would make us better people and better servants than wasting a good part of our day bowing to him.

[quote]
Again your understanding of the Qur'an is very wrong and that is why you are still not a Muslim either that or you are lying to yourself. Not my words the Words of the Qur'an!
[/quote]
Understanding and believing are two different things. I have read the Quran and MANY peoples' interpretation of it. The difference is I read and listen with an open mind, I have not been indoctrinated from birth with the belief, so I would have to say that I am not the one who doesn't understand the Quran or who is lying to myself.

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Re: If God exists!

Peace Seminole

My belief in God is a superior position which I say not out of arrogance but out of objective evidence. The questions you ask ... why would God this and why would God that only support your ignorance of the Diety and support your lack in faith of Divineness of Deity. The reply that you give and constantly put the cart before the horse where you ask .. 'so how does he gain' proves your lack of faith not yor faith in God.

Look to the verses you have posed as supporting the completion of the Qur'an as the Word of God.

Verse 6:38
There is not an animal (that lives) on the earth, nor a being that flies on its wings, but (forms part of) communities like you. Nothing have we omitted from the Book, and they (all) shall be gathered to their Lord in the end.

Verse 6:114
Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah. - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.

None of these suggest what you want them to suggest. In fact if you bring the verse in the Qur'an from Surah Al-Kahf regarding the Words of God you will see that He has many enough to dry out two sets of the World's water supply if it were turned to ink.

I gave you a logical example to prove that purpose does not purport to need and you call it a silly example. That in itself is a fallacious argument because by calling it silly it does not become so. And if it is silly then show how it is silly.

The purpose of everything created is to worship God, but God has given us a special ability not to worship Him, in this He facilitates our disobedience when we make the choice to do so. Our subconscious decisions and actions are always obedient to God, i.e. the heart beating, the breathing and other involuntary actions. The cells in our body worship God when we think we are not doing so. It is only when we choose not to follow God's Legislative Law is when sin and go against our design to our demise. There is no loss nor gain for Allah (SWT).

According to the dictates of Islam God requires us to be kind to one another and to make sacfirice and to enjoin good and forbid evil, so yes, there are many other things that Allah (SWT) requires from people other than direct worship of Him.

Understanding and believing are indeed two different things. For the one who thinks he understands and still does not believe then do you think his torment will be lesser or greater than the poor soul who doesn't understand? You say you understand but you remain in your predicament.

Enjoy life while it lasts.

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Re: If God exists!


If there were objective evidence, there wouldn't be these varying belief sytems and even differences within the same belief.

You believe in God, I believe in God. However...

Your subjective faith tells you to believe the Quran is infallilble, mine doesn't. You believe that man has to follow the cultural and ritual practices that men made part of religion. I don't.

You believe that yours is the the only righteous belief and only path to heaven. I don't.

You feel the purpose of God putting us here was to worship him. I think it was to have a relationship with him and to care for his creation.

Your belief system is systemized from centuries of other people's interpretations of what others said someone else said 1400 years ago. Mine isn't.

As different as those fundamental beliefs are, I don't have the audacity to claim that my position is superior or yours is ignorant, except for this one thing: your belief system *teaches *you that about mine.

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.. and what is your belief system that is not interpreted by humans?

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yaar....how can God 'exist'? God beyond concepts of existence! God is ParamPurush! All containing and contained in all. And not containing and not contained.We as humans can only aspire to think and contemplate God....

at least that is what I learnt from Sri Bhagwat Gita!

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I don't think he said any such thing.

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I think this is a very enlightened comment.

SKETCH...
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Re: If God exists!

Hahahaha,

The opposite of passionate belief in any idea is NOT passionate disbelief, but utter indifference. To be passionately disbelieving shows a lot of emotional stake in the issue. From what I gather from your initial question, that is exactly where you stand.

The answers that you are asking, to be honest, cannot be answered by anyone else, except yourself. Turn inside and ask. You will get the best answers there.

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Re: If God exists!

Peace StirCrasy

For all extents and purposes 'God exists' you have only discovered a flaw in our language which prescribes the flaw in the concept od 'existence'.

Of course you are alluding to the idea that in order to exist one needs to be created, needs to be contained in space and be manipulated, of course none of these things are becoming of God.

Did you know linguistically in Arabic the word Allah (i.e. the Name of God) cannot form the possessed part of a structure called possessed:possessor? This means that it is linguistically understood in Arabic that God cannot be contained!

The concept of All Containing is applied to God in the context of Knowledge and in the context of All Ultimate Unique Sublime and Absolute Attributes.

As far as 'contained in all', again this has a context, for us this means the source of all that exists is God, but it is not part of God, because God is The One Who Creates. i.e. something made from nothing or no premise to the created entity other than the Command of God - Be.

We would like to romaticise the concept that God is contained in the hearts of humanity. That there is a link in us that leads towards the Divine. This not mean that we become Divine, rather it means that we become close to Him and thus obtain a state of well being and permanent satisfaction. In Arabic this path that links us to God is called the fitra.

The 'not containing' aspects remove the over literal interpretations of the term 'containing' ... i.e. God does not contain that what is not God, creation is not God therefore this alludes to the Uniqueness of God.

Again the 'not contained' infers that nothing can fathom God that God is subordinate to none.

These are the fundamental explanations for the 'existence' of God. Agreed it is linguistically limited. However, it must also be agreed that the Islamic viewpoint of God is compatible with the ParamPurush concept so far as the explanation given is not assumed without contexts.

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Re: If God exists!


Of course it is interpreted by humans, but it is in no way systemized from centuries of other people's interpretations of what others said someone else said 1400 years ago while claiming it is the word, rules and wishes of God.

India Vs South Africa,12th March @ Nagpur...
India Vs South Africa,12th March @ Nagpur...
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Re: If God exists!

Peace

Why did my : p come out as a :p

... ???

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Alright but you didn't answer to my question.