Re: I believe in Miracles
Whats the matter with you man. So want to say that other religions can not give the same answer you printed above. And that this is a miracle associated only with islam. I think you should try me and dump all the proofs right away, i am waiting.......
proofs of the validity of islam or there really being a god?
and just curious about what religion you follow?
Re: I believe in Miracles
yeah salhu, thanks for askin, well i converted to Islam 2 years ago, i was about 17. Even thou i read alot about islam, still seems like i dont know anything. i grew up in US.
holy thang
tough question.. not because of it's nature, but because of how Allah has referred to miracles as something only He can do or gift his messengers with.. all else is just *nazar ka dhoka.
54:1]** The hour drew nigh and the moon did rend asunder.
[54:2] And if they see a miracle they turn aside and say: Transient magic.
54:3]And they call (it) a lie, and follow their low desires......
I think the contradictory part is where i'd draw the line.. but i'm not sure cuz everything I know and understand could be wrong too!
Re: I believe in Miracles
so ravage you wants to know when a miracle is not a miracle?
I reckon it not a mirackale is when a its a hallucination or illusion. The speaking calf was an illusion. The charmed snakes put against Moses' miracle were illusions. Anything which takes you away from God is an illusion. Maybe its just arrogance but I've had the feeling that believing your average miraculous happenings rumours is probably a sign of weak faith.
I've been told that Prophetic miracles were the ultimate or the peak if you like of the actual body of knowledge practised in the society at the time. Which might explain why Musa's staff turned into a serpent instead of a lightning rod.
Re: I believe in Miracles
if the question is whether to believe in miracles shown by someone & the person proposes a new religion or something contradicting Islam…
the way I see it is that Allah (Quran) & our Prophet :saw: have told us that there are no more prophets to come;
The religion has been perfected till qayamat as Islam and the Prophet Muhammad :saw: is the last Prophet.
Thats i think is the clear cut take on that!
Our Prophet :saw: also performed miracle/s, “splitting of the moon”; and i read somewhere thats when Islam came to the sub continent. (a raja after witnessing the split moon, also indicated by his ancient scriptures, travelled to Arabia to meet the Prophet :saw: and embraced Islam.
As for the christianity example above, i’m sure their religion had talked about the last Prophet :saw: !!
Re: I believe in Miracles
PA thanku for that reference.. I agree, Im not drawing the conclusion like you, Im hoping someone can explain it to me.
HumHaiPakistani i want to know when a miracle is a miracle, and how one can tell. explain what you mean by "illusion"? You mean the calf didnt really talk, and the magicians didnt really cause tose snakes? And even if we grant your illusion argument, how is the average or even educated person supposed to distinguish between illusion, magic and miracle? as PA posted above the Quran talks of people denying miracles offered as proof, and here theres also references to false miracles, phenomenon that people were misguided to believe in such as a talking calf, an idol crying, and apparently dajjal will show miracles with the technology of his time according to das reich.
I personally am being offered a miracle which i guess doesnt directly contradict what i believe in but validates what i believe to be a kooky philosophy. I dont understand why if I dont believe in it whether that is the same mindset as those who did not believe in Allah's miracles on the basis that there could be an explanation they are not aware of.
Hum Hain, your argument again is the same Das Reich offered. And the answer i can give you is suppose someone comes and says I am Mehdi and offers a "miracle" to you. This doesnt directly contradict your beliefs, thats the same line all offshoots of Islam such as bahaism and ahmedism took up. What will you say?
Re: I believe in Miracles
Dajjal means to Cover up, in relation to the act of when Camels in the desert used to get injured and their injuries would be covered with Tar to stop infection and bleeding, and was just termed Dajjala, as to mean to conceal, or hide, to 'cover up'.
In relation to Al-Masih ad-Dajjal (The False Messiah), his main purpose and objective is to do what? To cover up, to conceal the truth, Al-Haqq, with what, with Falshood, Batil. The reason why al-Masih ad-Dajjal can perform miracles is because he has been given knowledge of, he is AWARE and CONSCIOUS of what is the truth (al-Haqq), yet even then, he conceals it with falsehood (al-batil).
It is like saying, that you know that Allah's favour and blessings, and final honour was bestowed onto Sayyidina Hazrat Ismail (alaiyhis-salaam) and his descendants (Sayyidina Rasul-Allah (saws)) as we every year celebrate Eid al-Adha to commemorate the sacrifice made by Sayyidina Ibrahim (as) of his son Sayyidina Ismail (as). Yet, knowing this, you openly declare to the world to the public, that this power, this favour of Allah Almighty, is today with the descendants of Sayyidina Isaac (alaiyhis-salaam), when we know this to be a lie, as the Yahud (Jews) have been cursed by Allah Jalla Jalalu, and only the Ummah of Rasul-Allah (saws) are blessed, as long as they remain in his camp and do not stray from deserting his leadership.
So just in this way as mentioned above, this is how many Jews will follow Al-Masih ad-Dajjal, and many Muslims from Shaam (as reported in Ahadith) and in all pockets of the world, who hold contempt for the family and descendants of Sayyidina Rasul-Allah (saws), by not giving proper respect and honour to him, will follow al-Masih ad-Dajjal. This was foretold by Rasul-Allah (saws) himself that people from the Muslims will side with ad-Dajjal.
That is why in the end times, it is a battle between Haqq and Batil.
That is why the one who is going to lead this world towards the truth and DESTROY batil (falsehood) in the world, will be Sayyidina Imam al-Mahdi (alaiyhis-salaam), a descendant of Sayyiduna Rasul-Allah (saws).
Sayyidina Imam al-Mahdi (as) is more powerful and can outperform al-Masih ad-Dajjal in miracle working - but he does not use his powers for show and glamour, for self inticement.
He Sayyidina al-Mahdi (as) is Allah's Khalif on Earth and for us to follow Allah subhanahu wa ta 'ala, we must first follow Sayyidina Imam al-Mahdi (alaiyhis-salaam). There will be no room for hesitation or time to think during those times.
Ad-Dajjal's main purpose will be to misguide people into the fire by showing them miracles he is only able to perform because that is his purpose in this world, to cover up the truth with falsehood and right so he is given the title, al-Masih ad-Dajjal, the great Imposter or great liar, or great deceiver.
with the advent of the Rightly Guided One, our Master Imam al-Mahdi, peace be upon him, All things, technology, governments, democracy, lewdness in public, homosexuality, etc., will be finished and unable to even do the least bit of damage to Sayyidina al-Mahdi (alaiyhis-salaam).
Re: I believe in Miracles
^sortof on a tangent with the thread topic, but this only illustrates my point that skepticism in accepting miracles seems to be in order. i dont know when skepticism becomes Kufr of Allah's nishaniyan though.
Re: I believe in Miracles
Miracles are a real thing and happen every day.
You can say Karamah for miracle. There's nothin un-Islamic about it bro. It is completely 100 percent a part of Islam to believe in miracles. Some people doubt the miracles of Rasul-Allah (saws). I did post numerous authentic narrations showing his (saws) miracles as well.
Re: I believe in Miracles
so suppose someone comes to u and shows you a non-Islam related "miracle". would you believe it (even if there is no "islamic" interpretation of it) or would you regard it as a golden calf type thing? and why? If the only basis you have for rejecting it as a miracle is that it conflicts with your currently held beliefs then you will be doing the same thing misguided people did when they rejected Prophetic miracles as magic/trickery.
Re: I believe in Miracles
Everything is ordained by Allah subhanahu wa ta 'ala.
If a miracle occurs and someone claims that he did is independently of Allah subhanahu wa ta 'ala, let's say for example that person doesn't believe in a creator, how does that person believe in miracles? it doesn't make sense.
Well brother, I just gave you a perfect example - Dajjal is not a Muslim, yet he will be able to perform miracles....so what does that tell you?
Stick with the group that awaits the coming of Rasul-Allah's (saws) descendant, Sayyidina Imam al-Mahdi (as).
Prophet (saws) himself said that when he comes, that even if you have to crawl over ice to get to him, then you should.
That is why he is called the rightly guided one....
Re: I believe in Miracles
i think i understand the point you're making, but I dont think Im convinced. though I agree with your belief in imam mehdi.
Re: I believe in Miracles
Hum Hain, your argument again is the same Das Reich offered. And the answer i can give you is suppose someone comes and says I am Mehdi and offers a "miracle" to you. This doesnt directly contradict your beliefs, thats the same line all offshoots of Islam such as bahaism and ahmedism took up. What will you say?
well, again, coming of Mehdi has been foretold, along with the signs/miracles if any!! so i wud not believe the claim of the person showing a miracle that bhe is mehdi if it does not match with what we already know!!
ahmadism contradicts, so its not part of our religion n we dont accept it!
from a dictionary:
miracle
an event in the external world brought about by the immediate agency or the
simple volition of God, operating without the use of means capable of being
discerned by the senses, and designed to authenticate the divine commission of
a religious teacher and the truth of his message (John 2:18; Matt. 12:38). It
is an occurrence at once above nature and above man. It shows the intervention
of a power that is not limited by the laws either of matter or of mind, a power
interrupting the fixed laws which govern their movements, a supernatural power.
"The suspension or violation of the laws of nature involved in miracles is
nothing more than is constantly taking place around us. One force counteracts
another: vital force keeps the chemical laws of matter in abeyance; and
muscular force can control the action of physical force. When a man raises a
weight from the ground, the law of gravity is neither suspended nor violated,
but counteracted by a stronger force. The same is true as to the walking of
Christ on the water and the swimming of iron at the command of the prophet. The
simple and grand truth that the universe is not under the exclusive control of
physical forces, but that everywhere and always there is above, separate from
and superior to all else, an infinite personal will, not superseding, but
directing and controlling all physical causes, acting with or without them."
God ordinarily effects his purpose through the agency of second causes; but he
has the power also of effecting his purpose immediately and without the
intervention of second causes, i.e., of invading the fixed order, and thus of
working miracles. Thus we affirm the possibility of miracles, the possibility
of a higher hand intervening to control or reverse nature's ordinary movements.
In the New Testament these four Greek words are principally used to designate
miracles: (1.) Semeion, a "sign", i.e., an evidence of a divine commission; an
attestation of a divine message (Matt. 12:38, 39; 16:1, 4; Mark 8:11; Luke
11:16; 23:8; John 2:11, 18, 23; Acts 6:8, etc.); a token of the presence and
working of God; the seal of a higher power.
(2.) Terata, "wonders;"
wonder-causing events; portents; producing astonishment in the beholder (Acts
2:19).
(3.) Dunameis, "might works;" works of superhuman power (Acts 2:22; Rom.
15:19; 2 Thess. 2:9); of a new and higher power.
(4.) Erga, "works;" the works
of Him who is "wonderful in working" (John 5:20, 36). Miracles are seals of a
divine mission. The sacred writers appealed to them as proofs that they were
messengers of God. Our Lord also appealed to miracles as a conclusive proof of
his divine mission (John 5:20, 36; 10:25, 38). Thus, being out of the common
course of nature and beyond the power of man, they are fitted to convey the
impression of the presence and power of God. Where miracles are there certainly
God is. The man, therefore, who works a miracle affords thereby clear proof that
he comes with the authority of God; they are his credentials that he is God's
messenger. The teacher points to these credentials, and they are a proof that
he speaks with the authority of God. He boldly says, "God bears me witness,
both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles." The credibility of
miracles is established by the evidence of the senses on the part of those who
are witnesses of them, and to all others by the testimony of such witnesses.
The witnesses were competent, and their testimony is trustworthy. Unbelievers,
following Hume, deny that any testimony can prove a miracle, because they say
miracles are impossible. We have shown that miracles are possible, and surely
they can be borne witness to. Surely they are credible when we have abundant
and trustworthy evidence of their occurrence. They are credible just as any
facts of history well authenticated are credible. Miracles, it is said, are
contrary to experience. Of course they are contrary to our experience, but that
does not prove that they were contrary to the experience of those who witnessed
them. We believe a thousand facts, both of history and of science, that are
contrary to our experience, but we believe them on the ground of competent
testimony. An atheist or a pantheist must, as a matter of course, deny the
possibility of miracles; but to one who believes in a personal God, who in his
wisdom may see fit to interfere with the ordinary processes of nature, miracles
are not impossible, nor are they incredible. (See LIST OF MIRACLES, Appendix.)
miracles could/would happen; we're not to fall for their proposition that contradicts our religion!
Re: I believe in Miracles
Ravage:
The problem with miracles offered by every other Chishti sahib is simply that you cannot believe it. As probably outlined by other posters here, there is most definitely a given criteria for judging whether or not something is miracle. Motive and reason of the miracle is one criterion. The miracles offered by Prophets provided proof of Prophethood. Here’s a saying to help you understand. According to Imam Sadiq (as): "God bestowed miracles on Prophets to serve as a clear proof of their truthfulness and veracity. He does not give such proof to anyone except his Messengers and His Proofs, so that the true claimant to a connection with God should be distinguishable from cunning tricksters." This is where the concept of illusion versus true miracle comes in. Only Prophets can command miracles everything else is an illusion. When the channels of delivery are similar, you have to make a distinction. A lot of the revelations to the Prophets were through dreams, but you won’t believe every nutter out there who dreams he spoke to God. So maybe it comes down to believing who is a Prophet and who is not?
When the Prophets announced their message, there were different categories of people who accepted the message through different means. Not everyone needed miracles to accept the message of the Prophets. There were people who saw and felt the truth of the message itself and accepted it. There were people who understood the truth of the message but needed to question the prophet to verify it for themselves. There were others who through generations were awaiting and knew of the signs of Prophets, and some others who needed that extra nudge as it were, the miracles, to feel ready to accept. It was never about the miracle in itself but the message of that miracle.
Coming back to the motive, what does this miracle being offered to you provide ‘proof’ of? It’s not usually necessary to provide an explanation for the miracle but to understand, in my view, what it is the supposed miracle is trying to explain. A miracle for the sake of being a miracle is never justified in my view. So no, I don’t believe in labelling everything which cannot be understood as a miracle. For example, I’d say the extraordinary cures of ill people labelled mojiza show the power of the human mind and faith rather than being a true miracle.
As for Imam Mahdi (atf), I’ll tell you why I won’t believe anybody who says he is the mahdi and shows me a miracle. It is because firstly my belief in the Mahdi isn’t based on the need for any miracle. Secondly it is absolutely clear that anybody who claims to be Mahdi or claims to have met him before his call which will be witnessed world over is a liar.
Re: I believe in Miracles
well done!!!!!!
I like your arguements.
To humhainpakistani
Re: I believe in Miracles
nice reply hhp, i'll think about it and respond
Re: I believe in Miracles
My understanding:
You have to understand why did religion came to the world? simply to give people a "better" way of living. The devine system is better than what humans can come up of their own. It doesn't mean, that we can't live in a non-devine system or will not be happy in a human created society. But we will be happier if we incorporate the devine guidelines in our lives / society.
You can systematically try all ideas and you will come down to the ideas given by God. E.g tax is same as zakat.
There is no need / room for miracles in this case. Also, Biggest problem is to determine - what is devine system. "Truth is always open to intruptations". so what we are told Sharia / Devine system of these days is mixture of lot of things :)
Hope God will give us understanding that we need :)
Re: I believe in Miracles
Well Unreal. I just wanted to make a point that being a muslim means blind faith; and that too on unseen. Allah is there but nobody has seen him except from couple of prophets. There are no real physical proofs for existance of God and that is our test; it is a very tough challenge to have faith on that unseen by us and to follow the commands sent down to us by somebody who is unseen. You got your answer yet Afridi786???
Re: I believe in Miracles
yea salha, i couldn't have said it better, as a muslim v have to believe in the unseen.
Someone gave me a very good example long time ago. He said that think of a chick before its born. Unborn chicks are inside the egg. so if someone somehow tells the chick that once you come out of this shell you will see: human, trees, the world, evil, good. It will be better for the chick to believe that, but what if the chick denies all all that and says you are just lieing. But as soon as the shell cracks, chick sees all the stuff the man described.
In this example, we (humans) are the chick, and outside the shell is afterlife (and God) for us.
just wanted to share.
Re: I believe in Miracles
The first miracle of Imam Mahdi (as) will be a voice from the heavens to which every single soul on Earth will hear which will announce that he (as) is here. Don't say that Imam Mahdi (as) will not be accompanied with miracles, whoever says such a thing has not studied this most important subject in Islam very well at all.