Hundreds killed on the HAjj!

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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Re: Hundreds killed on the HAjj!

**Saudi negligence and failure to prepare for the mass influx of Muslims during the Haj was blamed yesterday for the deaths of hundreds of people, including two Britons, in the worst disaster to hit the annual ritual for 16 years.

As Saudi officials attempted to pin the blame for the crush on the pilgrims themselves, who, it was claimed, had failed to follow the “rules” of Haj, pressure was mounting on the authorities to admit they had made mistakes.**

“There is no doubt that poor administration and negligence is to blame for the deaths, which occur year after year,” said Dr Mai Yamani, a research fellow at Chatham House. “The authorities are blaming the pilgrims but there has been very little acknowledgement of any shortcoming or bad planning on their own part.”
**
But Dr Yamani, one of the world’s foremost Saudi scholars, said there was no excuse for the authorities’ “extremely poor management and administration”.**

“Having two million people in between Mecca and Mina at the same time is very difficult to manage. But there was negligence and there must be an acknowledgement of some wrongdoing,” she said, adding that she would like to see an international, Muslim-led inquiry into the accidents.
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article338502.ece

Saudi now blaming the pilgrims my goodness how pathetic!

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having been to hajj, and having fallen, I can say that ther eis a severe need for education of the pilgrims. When I fell it was due to a crowd of sudanese who were instructed by the security forces to not enter the premises since the place was packed and many people were actaully leaving and going out since there was no room. The crowd paused for a second and then rushed in.

what do you expect the security forces to do at a time like this? go one on one and block them like the bears defense? or just open fire and kill the people not following the instructions in order to safeguard the other pilgrims?

While there is much to be desired in what the Saudi govt needs to do, why is it that the number of casualties fluctuates like that and how come there are years where there is no injury.

Same facilities, same level of crowds, similar rules in effect...but one year something happens and another year its okay.

We can not absolve crowds of all responsibility, they need to be responsible and behave in a manner that does not create unsafe conditions for others, and they have to obey the regulations. sadly that is not the case with many pilgrims..and its those people who create situations where others get injured or killed.

I have seen it year after year I went for Hajj on a number of occassions and also for Umrrah and was thoroughly disappointed in the way some of the people behave. I mean you are there for such an important event, be patient, stop shoving and pushing, stop trying to cut throw crowd to get a few feet ahead. quit trying to cheat the rules and cook in your tents and burn the whole area down (used to be the case)...personal responsibility is a huge thing here, and in such crowded places lack of responsibility on the part of someone may be a price that someone else pays with their life.

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If this type of accident in crowd happened time and time again in say for example streets of London what do you think the British Goverment would do would they say oh crowds its your responsibility to watch where you going or would they make researched plans to prevent these incidents happening time and time again.

Absolving the saudi government for this disaster is not helping anybody it is time they put their hands up and admit they cannot handle this situation the one job they have to do in the whole year they cannot even cope with, clear example of their incompetency!

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It was a case of bad management. 3 million people have to go pass and stone 3 pillars in about 7 hours or something = over 7,000 per minute. No matter what you try it will be crowded.

My uncle was about 20 mins their before the stampede. He said people brought luggage which was forbided. However to the approach no soldiers on foot or anyone else stopping people doing so - it has to be donr before a big crwod gathers up i.e. at the source. On the bottom floor groups of Iranians and somalians linking together in chains then charging from the side determined to get to the pillars withought queing. Security did nothing. People where running for their lives and those on the floor trampled. Burst stomaches etc.... army ppl said pick your own relatives no help from them. The old and weak have no chance if on the floor.

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The real figure is said to be much higher around the thousand mark but they dont want to release it as a matter of pride.

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No one is absolving Saudi Govt, but its not 100% their fault. They can make something more idiot proof but then a better idiot is born. only pointing fingers at the govt is not goingt o solve the issue, all aspects of the issue need to be assessed and appropriate actions taken in all areas to avoid or reduce chances of future issues.

I have already explained events where we were impacted because some people just could not follow the rules. pushing, shoving etc.

Security forces can do more, but they can not stop tens of thousands of people not following the rules, it only takes a few thousand people blatantly ignoring rules to endanger many more around them.

I vividly recall the fire in 1976 where much of the tents were burnt down because some morons decided to cook in their tents in an unsafe manner and in the process managed to burn down thousands of tents, forced many families to be displaced and caused many deaths. It was impossible for organizers to ensure that everyone in the tents was cooking outdoors, it was common sense as well as rules for people that they could not cook IN their tents or very close to it. Eventually they banned all cooking in tents and even then people caused issues off and on by smuggling small propane stoves and cooking in the tents.

The fact that jamraat has accidents some years and not others shows that the place can be safe.

there are several factors

  1. Facilities themselves
  2. Proper rules
  3. proper enforcement
  4. personal responsibility on part of the pilgrims

any one of these not being sufficient can cause a problem.

I hate to state this but it is a fact, our freinds from Sudan are very very very incosiderate of others, its a known fact and a common obeservation, the men join hands make a large circle with women and kids in the middle, and then they push and shove through the crowd..its very disrespectful and frankly better behavior is expected at such a holy event, twice that I have fallen, once as a toddler, when my mother had to put herself on top of me to protect me from being trampled, and the poor lady got walked over not only by the sudanese men, but the women and children in that circle. My dad had to pull some serious wrestling moves to pull her up. This was during tawaaf

The second time we fell, had it not been for the security forces as well as custodial staff from running and saving us, it was a almost a certain death if not serious injury.

next are our desis. Yes the entire nation is a bunch of pack rats, go to an avg desi home which is spilling with junk at the seems..but thats okay keep it at your home, I can not begin to tell you how many times I have seen desis carrying bags upon bags of stuff with them..I can understand a small bag with a water bottle and needed medication etc but its like they are going on a friggin picnic..bottles of water, cans of soda, sandwiches, fruits, this and that and oh yes, shopping is very important too, so crap that theyt have bought that day, souvenirs, gifts, what nots..it is a nuisance and very dangerous.

Yes saudi govt needs to do more, but hajis are expected to follow the rules, they are expected to behave in a solemn manner. they are at one of the most important events for any muslim, yes they choose to display their impatience, selfishness, disregard for others safety when they push adn shove like that..where do they want others to go, disappear into thin air, why do they need to rush to finish the tawaf or the saee or the jamraat.

the responsibility lies also with other govts and other agencies and tour operators who bring groups of hajis to train them properly. In the end, I suggest that any Haji not following the rules should be ejected immediately no matter what stage of the Hajj he/she is at, that may force some others to take a look at their behavior and act responsibly.

what the hell...
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It is about time that scholars agree to extend the time from beginning of day to end of day so instead of 7 hours you have more than double that atleast, and much of the problem will be solved. Islam is a logical religion, deen-e-fitrat. Not only shoulkd the decree be made public but people need to be educated that whether you do it one time or another in the same day your sawaab points are not being impacted.

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Thay have done for this year. A fatwa was released but everyone knows it was a fudge and wanted to go at the time prescribed by our rasool. Even if lets say 150,000 decided to go at the extended time still millions of people going through. An example to think of is a football stadium. Large stadiums in europe take around 40,000 that whole stadium has to walk to 3 pillars stopping each time to throw stones. The stadium has to preform the ritual in about 9 mins. If people followed the rules set out it probabaly would not end in deaths although it could still easily happen if someone weak trips down there is no room to stop. The crowd is such that you cant stop. There is immense pressure from behind to carry on moving. If you stop you will squeezed breathless. The crowd wont stop moving as they are being pushed from behind etc.... those a few rows back wont know you have fallen down. As mentioned some people where carrying luggage. This should is not allowed and should have been enforced. People dont want to wlak back 2 miles to their tent to get the luggae before going to hotel or wherever they going so some carry it with them. The better organised tours took the luggage for hajis to hotel so it can be resolved.

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risc i have taken 2 of your points and i think we agree on these, i just want to elaborate

  1. the pressure from behind…it is due to pushing and shoving. its not all quiet someone falls down people behind him try to stop and they tell ppl to stop, they scream and yell begging people to stop, and others behind them do the same..but people dont stop, they think they are not right behind the point where someone fell so lets keep going and moving. I like the simpel idea of a loud horn or siren which means everyone freeze so everyoen can hear it and stop in their tracks. those who coninue to push and all should be packed up thrown in a local jail for a few days and then sent home no matter how holy pious old or how much they sacrificed to be there.

  2. people dont want to walk back to get their luggage? well thats selfishness on their part, pick a tour operator that is going to do such babysitting, or bite the bullet and go back and get the luggage instead of endangering others, how much luggae does a pilgrim for hajj needs anyways when going for jamraat.

Me and mY gender ... why?
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why is it a fudge, scholars can look at current issues and see what can be done to allow the maximum number of people the ability to attend Hajj in a safe, healthy and peaceful environment.

and it is the responsibility of everyone to then understand, learn and teach that it should be more than just 150K ppl going thru at early hours. While that time may be what the prophet chose, it has to be done that day and the hours can be extended

if all else fails, people should just collect the 7 pebbles for each point and drop it in collection locations scattered throughout the city and then at the precise time the prophet went for jamraat, the govt can unload all those pebbles at jamraat :slight_smile: (oh yeah and before someone starts lecturing me, this is just a joke)

thumbs up, tim hortons and wannabe gun slinger
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Re. to 1: As I'm sure you know the crowd is massive. You can stand their withought even moving a foot and you will get pushed along. THe loud horn may work but the stoppage wont be instant take a good 10 mins or so I would have thought, I dont think it can be simulated so would have to be tested on hakis and could have horrific consequences. People who charge in do need to be arrested, knocking people over I think breaks your Hajj, anyway the security people cant be bothered or dont have the courage to act when needed.

  1. Physically Hajj is difficult. Everyone would rather walk 2 hours forward then 2 back then 4 forward. The Hajj ministry banned luggage as it is a danger but it was not enforced. The good tour operators like my uncle was with handled their luggage. Took it to the hotel for them. Some people cant afford a operator and as such come on their own spening all their lefe savings to get their. Some walk it for months or years from Africa or other parts of the world. Maybe the Hajj ministry should provide luggage transfer free of charge. It will be a logistics nightmare but then again better than people dying.

  2. People want to do Hajj as it was explained by our Prophet. I think the stoning needs to be done before Sunset but not 100% as not done the Hajj myself yet. it's upto you whther you accept the fatwa or not. The saudi Ulema does practically what the crown says. Some will accept it while the majority dont and believe they should as outlined in original Islamic text.

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yaar, I am 35 years old, i went to hajj when i was in my teens, we had no ayyashi, took our own tents from Riyadh to Makkah, put them up ourselves...carried what we needed to carry, did not drive once we got into the city btu took buses. minibuses etc to get from one place to another or walked..did nto carry too many things so there was no need to be going back and forth for luggage.

I mean Hajj is supposed to be something special, cant people live without some material goods for a day or two. we barely carried anything with us and it was a similar case with majority of people.

and yes, security forces can do more, but

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times have changed. People arnt taking their fridge with them its stuff like tents, blankets etc... You cant take a bus now well you can but it will take 8 hours for a route taking 2 hours on foot. The rules are you carry NOTHING but yourself but that was not enforced.

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yeah we had tents blankets etc too, but we left the tent where it was and pretty much everything we needed was either in those belts where you can keep cash and id etc, we bought water, food etc since there were tons of stores and vendors. The luggage that we even saw some ppl carrying then were like massive suitcases, bulging bags and huge potlis. That just can not happen.

As far as enforcement goes, if you start with the premise that hajis know that they ar etheior for a special solemn holy occassion and that they will do their best to behave in that manner, then you would need a much smaller security forces contingent than if you go with the premise that ppl would look for shortcuts even if it means endangering others.

While I have not been for Hajj in 2 decades, my uncles and cousins live in jeddah and I hear about Hajj related issues from them directly.

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Finally, on Sunday, the bulldozers of the Saudi Binladen Group, the engineering and construction company owned by the bin Laden family, rolled in to change all that.

The pedestrian platform will be demolished to make way for a new four-story structure from which pilgrims can carry out the ritual.

“One of the biggest problems was this bridge,” said Osama al-Bar, director of the Haj Research Center at Umm al-Qura University in Mecca, which oversees the safety of the hajj. “After 32 years and 1,500 lives, it’s finally going down. I’d really like to know who thought this structure up.”

When first built, the bridge was seen as a great leap forward in allowing more pilgrims to pass through Mecca.

“There’s an incident every two years now,” said Bar, who did not hide his frustration after having reviewed hours of videotape from Thursday. “When you get 300,000 people seeking to move all at once, accidents are bound to happen, and they are quickly magnified.”

The Saudi authorities put the blame for the stampede on a rush of unruly pilgrims who insisted on moving at noon, when the stoning ritual begins, rather than spreading their observances over the afternoon.

Critics say, however, that Bar’s solutions only compound the problems, focusing on the symptoms, not the actual causes. The most immediate problems entail management, not construction, they say.
**
“The hajj is a complete system, and must be approached as a system, a flow,” said Sami Angawi, a prominent architect in Jidda who founded the Haj Research Center in the 1970s. “What they do is concentrate and do a project, and put their hopes on that project until something wrong happens. But all that happens is this project creates new issues.”**

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/01/17/news/mecca.php
**
Saudis trying another idea lets see if they can mange somethign useful this time because their safety record on the hajj is a total disgrace!**

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I agree that Hajj should be looked at, as a complete system of moving lakhs (hundreds of thousands) of people between 5 major points based on my experience.

Here is how it works: from point A (Haram for Tawaf-e-Qadoom, and Sa’i at safa-marwa), to point B (Mina), to point C (Arafat), to point D (Muzdalifa), back to point B (Mina), on to point E (Jumrat), to point A (Haram for Tawafe Wida or farewell tawaf). {please forgive me if I forgot some locations}.

I don’t think bunch of tribals in Saudi police can handle this 5 point movement in today’s world. Anything that comes close is what I saw once in the Disney world.

So here is a bold suggestion. Give the Hajj to Disney World on a 5 year contract. Courteous young students from all over the world will work as guides through a summer job in Makkah and Madina. Hajis will return home happy, healthy, and alive.

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i would have thought the problem has to do with th improvement in transport costs and increase in Muslims going as well..there should be fixed quota on Muslims going for hajj..such a small area can't forever handle an increase in muslims population

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^^ As I said earlier, Micky Mouse (Disney World) will do a better job managing the Hajis than some tribal Arab Shurtas.

do nutt riplaiee