Re: Human first or Muslim first?
^ ok, I went bak and re-read it. If you are making a difference between 'what is' vs 'what Muslims' believe, sure I won't quibble with that. But would point out that it is then only a belief - the 5+ billion believe otherwise.
btw what does fitrah mean?
see Quranic verse in post#20.
Firtah means:
The deen (way of religion) of Allah on which He has made mankind.
The design of Allah according to which HE has creted mankind.
Re: Human first or Muslim first?
Re: Human first or Muslim first?
see Quranic verse in post#20.
Firtah means: The deen (way of religion) of Allah on which He has made mankind. The design of Allah according to which HE has creted mankind.
Thank you - and that is what I was trying to point out in my earlier post - ie
if you take the term Allah as a term that means 'God' or Creator, without a particular religious affiliation then fitrah would refer to not just the Muslim / Islamic way but all of nature and humanity. In that situation, it would be wrong to claim in case of the 6B people that they are born Muslim.
Re: Human first or Muslim first?
Thank you - and that is what I was trying to point out in my earlier post - ie
if you take the term Allah as a term that means 'God' or Creator, without a particular religious affiliation then fitrah would refer to not just the Muslim / Islamic way but all of nature and humanity. In that situation, it would be wrong to claim in case of the 6B people that they are born Muslim.
Peace BindazChakkar
Not really ... in the same Book it mentions the prefered way is Islam. In other words Islam maps the fitrah.
Re: Human first or Muslim first?
^ so I am not sure any ;longer what the argument is. The household of 6/7th of the global population does not follow Islam and the babies born into that household do not. I thought your point was that the Quran said something more generically applicable (to Muslims and non Muslims) - but you are also now confirming that "the Book mentioned the preferred way is Islam" - which very clearly 6/7th do not believe, but obviously they are human. And that was my original point.
Re: Human first or Muslim first?
^ so I am not sure any ;longer what the argument is. The household of 6/7th of the global population does not follow Islam and the babies born into that household do not. I thought your point was that the Quran said something more generically applicable (to Muslims and non Muslims) - but you are also now confirming that "the Book mentioned the preferred way is Islam" - which very clearly 6/7th do not believe, but obviously they are human. And that was my original point.
Peace BindazChakkar
An innocent soul such as that of a baby is full aware of Allah (SWT), angels and where it came from and its mission in life ... as it grows it forgets and learns new things ... new things based on its exposure to other ideas ... Ideas given by its parents and friends and teachers ... The word "insaan" in Arabic means "the forgetful ones" ...
Children born in to Muslim families will indeed forget the Islam they came with, but will learn the Islam their parents teach them ... other children will grow according to their parents faith. Besides our parts are all Muslim ... which means they conform to the Laws of Allah (SWT).
Re: Human first or Muslim first?
^ are you using the term Islam also in a generic sense here and not just to refer to the religion started / advocated by Proph.Muhammad?
I have heard of similar ideas (such as babies remember unto a certain stage in their development, some aspects of either prior lives or divine thing in other religions as well). There is ofcourse no way to prove or disprove any of these, so utimately it all boils down to what a person has faith in and believes in. And 6/7th of the population believe otherwise.
Anyway, thanks for your responses
Re: Human first or Muslim first?
^ are you using the term Islam also in a generic sense here and not just to refer to the religion started / advocated by Proph.Muhammad?
I have heard of similar ideas (such as babies remember unto a certain stage in their development, some aspects of either prior lives or divine thing in other religions as well). There is ofcourse no way to prove or disprove any of these, so utimately it all boils down to what a person has faith in and believes in. And 6/7th of the population believe otherwise.
Anyway, thanks for your responses
Peace BindazChakkar
Yes ... the other people believe otherwise that is why they are called non-Muslims. I have only been discussing this matter from the perspective of Islam as a Muslim, not about a scientific definition for this ... that is why it threw me why you kept on about the 6/7 of the world population who are not Muslim ... to me it makes complete sense that all children are born Muslim - being Muslim means that they submit to the Will of Allah (SWT). I know in many other faiths such as in the Catholic church a person must go through certain stages to be called a Christian. They believe humans are born in sin ... whereas we believe a child is innocent. The condition of innocence or sinlessness is the condition of the people who enter heaven ... so we see a greater wisdom behind the term children of God ... that is not recognised in Christianity. I also believe this concept is present in every religion which has its source in Divine revelation and hence reiterate the only religion according to me that has retained its true form what we now call Islam today - most recently brought by Muhammad (SAW) like it was brought by Isa (AS), Moses (AS), Abraham (AS) and all prophets the names of who we know and don't know.
No other religion really preaches this common thread that is learnt about in Islam. Islam is also the first religion that announced an end to prophethood (messengers from God) and provides the Last Testament (Qur'an) for the inheritors of the Kingdom of God (Muslims) to read and learn and practice their lives in accordance with.
Re: Human first or Muslim first?
Thank you - and that is what I was trying to point out in my earlier post - ie
if you take the term Allah as a term that means 'God' or Creator, without a particular religious affiliation then fitrah would refer to not just the Muslim / Islamic way but all of nature and humanity. In that situation, it would be wrong to claim in case of the 6B people that they are born Muslim.
Psyah already explained to you. What I understand that you would like to know how come a follower of a certain religion (other than Islam) born as Muslim. Every Child born as Muslim because it is mentioned in Quran and in various hadiths that 'The pure Allah's Islamic nature (true faith i.e. to worship none but Allah Alone), with which He has created human beings. So if a child become non-muslim is due to his parents and his parents are non-muslim because they were following his grand-parents and the chain of followers is going on. That is what mentioned in a post where the hadith and Quran's verse quoted.
We all blessed with good sense to differentiate what is right and what is wrong means sugar and salt looks lika same but different in taste so we are given choices to see, judge and choose what is correct.
Re: Human first or Muslim first?
Once Moulan Kalbe Sadiq explained this on indian television to promote Islam:
Suppose you have left your house to go for Haj and you are carrying passport and ticket and all your travel documents in your pocket, and you are also fasting and you stop to offer namaz by a river. During your namaz you hear a voice for help. A man is drowning in the river is calling for help saying " Hai Baghwan Bachao".
Now your dilemma is that you are fasting so you can not jump in the water otherwise your fast will be void. you are in the middle of namaz and you can not break your namaz and if you jump in the water then your Haj travel documents will be destroyed and you will miss Haj and on top of that person is Hindu calling his Bhagwan for help. What do you do?
He said Islam says break your namaz, loose your fast, miss your Haj and save the "human being".
I hope it answers.
Re: Human first or Muslim first?
I was reading today this thought provoking letter of Imam Ali written to Malik e Ashtar his appointed governor of Egypt. Here is an excerpt of that letter but I recommend this letter to be read in full (http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul/letters/letter53.htm):
"Maalik! You must create in your mind kindness, compassion and love for your subjects. Do not behave towards them as if you are a voracious and ravenous beast and as if your success lies in devouring them.
Remember, Maalik, that amongst your subjects there are two kinds of people: those who have the same religion as you have; they are brothers to you, and those who have religions other than that of yours, they are human beings like you. Men of either category suffer from the same weaknesses and disabilities that human beings are inclined to, they commit sins, indulge in vices either intentionally or foolishly and unintentionally without realizing the enormity of their deeds. Let your mercy and compassion come to their rescue and help in the same way and to the same extent that you expect Allah to show mercy and forgiveness to you."
Re: Human first or Muslim first?
I think there is a problem in sematics here ...
When we say "Human first or Muslim first" are we asking this question as a matter of sequence - i.e. in time (as I answered) or are we asking this question as a matter of preference? Being human is more important than being Muslim?
The answer to the first one is already given ... We are Muslim before we are Human in time and sequence ...
The answer to the second is, as others have said, "to be Muslim and human is one in the same" ... which means the question itself is a leading question ...
The real question being asked is "what is more important? Our duties to Allah (SWT) or our duties to humans regardless of their religion, when these are in conflict"
The simple answer is that our duties as Muslims is to serve Allah (SWT), by serving humanity and to serve ourselves by worshipping Allah (SWT) ...
In other words when we worship Allah (SWT) we are not serving Him we are serving our own interests ... and to serve Allah (SWT) means that we serve humanity ... To make it more clear:
Serving ourselves = Worshipping Allah
Serving Allah = helping humanity
The reason why helping humanity is serving Allah is because we take the responsibility that Allah (SWT) has taken which is to sustain and help humanity ... For sure it is greater to serve Allah than it is to serve ourselves ... but we must serve ourselves as well, when we are done serving humanity.
I hope this answers the OPs question. I believe this reflects Pagluus and Makranis posts above ...
P.S. When we undertake our affairs in this way we are better Muslims than not doing our affairs in this way ... so by being proper Muslims we will worship Allah (SWT) when the needs of those in our domain of responsibility are dealt with ...
Re: Human first or Muslim first?
More pragmatically when the time for prayer arrives we stand to pray, but if it arrives and we are busy helping a neighbour we finish helping that neighbour, if whilst we pray someone is coming to harms way we stop and help and resume later ... if food is presented before us and the time for prayer arrives we eat before we pray so that our attention in prayer is not distracted by the food.
In the first case helping a person in need through urgency is more important than prayer ... but prayer although is more important than eating ones meal, the meal is eaten first in order to optimise the attention in prayer ... so each case needs to be understood and given careful regard ... if a layman continues to pray without helping someone then he is not sinful because it is often difficult to tell what to do at what time.
Re: Human first or Muslim first?
one of your above comments is interesting (I will elaborate in due course) - why do you say 'worshiping Allah' is 'serving ourselves'?
Re: Human first or Muslim first?
I'm gonna call the BS police on that one. A child is born with no belief in god. We brainwash children.
you have drunken god away...please come back! We'll help :D
Re: Human first or Muslim first?
lol, how can the two be compared
we are all humans, no matter what.