and yes........I would like to see the reference to where you typed your BOGUS information from. Thanks.
Don't worry Bro.......
I will provide the refrences.....(i don't have the book with me at the moment)
I totally agree with the names of the sons of Hadrat Ali(radi allah an hu) you mentioned above only excluded three of these....and don't worry all three of them lived a whole life so its not possible for me to change or twist the facts.......
I have got another fact.......I know you will start asking for refrences again...so I will post it later with the complete refrences
[quote]
Originally posted by Pagluu:
and yes........I would like to see the reference to where you typed your BOGUS information from. Thanks.
[/quote]
"And we know very well who our great Imam's sons and daughters were.
It was you own 2nd khalifa who didnt know who his ABBA JEE was. "
Nice...
Is this the way how you guys post here?
I thought you were the admin for this.
i can say a whole lot but i guess you aint worth an argument. Mr Pagluu.
Most of the crap deleted...not worthy of repost
[quote]
Originally posted by a1shah:
**
"And as I said earlier, you all have no concept of imamate. An imam does not vie for political power, such as caliphate, which is a worldly position and which was jostled for by the first 3. An imam is one appointed by Allah (swt) to lead the holy apostle's (pbuh) ummah along the teachings of the Qur'an and the sunnah."
**
[/quote]
If he was a God chosen Imam and didn't care about the "wordly position" of the Caliph, then why have u been crying for the past 1400 years.
I don't want to achieve immortality through my work... I want to achieve it through not dying.
The Qur'aan testifies to the Holy Prophet PBUH Wives as being the Mothers of all Nations, but you still slate them and disbelieve.
The Qur'aan testifies for the Sahaaba as having sacrificed more for Islam than any other people, but you still slate them and disbelieve.
The Qur'aan testifies that the Holy Prophet PBUH was illiterate and only spoke what Allah SWTA ordered him to speak.This is why the Qur'aan was the Miracle of Miracles!
but you still slate him and disbelieve.
Like Allah SWTA, has said 'even with all the evidence in front them, they will still disbelieve'.
The Qur'aan is the word of Allah SWTA and you still tend to disbelieve what it says. The above are a prime example.
The Qur'aan is personally protected by Allah SWTA, and therefore can never be changed despite your Imaaams arranging, re-arranging, adding and subtracting ayats etc as you have stated.
The fact of the matter is, we have been given the greatest gift of all, and that is the gift of CHOICE!
You can choose to accept or decline.
You can choose to believe or disbelieve.
You can choose to hate or love.
The decision lies with the individual.
You choose your path and I choose mine.
Very simple logic.
The big difference here is that you slate the very Muslims who were the bedrock of Islam at the beginning, and have a much higher station than you and I will ever have in this World and in the Hereafter.
Why did Hazrat Ali swear alleigance to his pre-decessors.?
If Hazrat Ali didn't have a problem with the companions, then why do you!
Pagluu actually lives up to his screen name and his IQ level baffles me. There is absolutely no excuse whatsoever for his Kufr comments regarding the 2nd Caliphate! May Allah SWTA's curse be upon Pugluu and his prodgeny in this world and the next world for his satanic comments.
One word comes to mind: HYPOCRYTES! of the first degree!
a'oozo billah minashhaitan-ir-rajeem,
bismillahi-r-rahmaan-ir-raheem.
why don't you people admit that you won't accept other's refernce?
eveyone will beleive his own sources (which he/she has been told since childhood to be ABSOLUTE TRUTH). sunni will bring one hadith and shi'a will reject saying "oh,it is too weak", and shi'a will bring one and be rejected by sunni. where will you end up??? in a corrupt nation, or being killed everywhere in the world with no single platform.
why don't we stop accusing each other of forming a sect just because of a political difference that took place 1400 years ago.
there are several thousands of arguments we can get into, but beleive me no one will be convinced that other is right... its Allah's decision which we should wait for and not any imam's or molvi's or ulemas'.
there is no end to it. we can kill each other by hundreds or thousands each year but there won't be any solution. the only one to benefit will be those who deny Allah(SWT) and/or prophet Mohammed (P.B.U.H.)!!!! what do we get? we get kicked by each other in the world and we still wait for Allah's decision to know who gets kicked where in next life. ( i don't want to listen to your decisions PLEASE! ).
wake up folks. work for ummah (whatever you consider ummah) but don't work against at least who beleive in Allah and Mohammed (P.B.U.H.) and his family and associates.
take care you all,
wassalam
We oughta be Changez like, don't we?
[This message has been edited by Changez_like (edited May 25, 2001).]
Salaaaam
I have asked these question earlier about the khilafat in an earlier post, but nobody ever answered it, Let me ask it again.
You fellow sunni brothers have problem that we don’t believe in Abu Bakr being khaleefa and beleif in Imamat of Hazrat Ali given by the Holy Prophet.
Now tell me friends if khilafat was so important then the burrial of the Prophet, Who is the Khaleefa now, Ok even if i believe in the khilafat lets see how it goes, First Abu Bakr, Then Umar, Usman, Hazrat Ali, Imam Hussan, wats after that Mahvia, and then Yazid, now u want us to believe in his khilafat, the person who shed the blood of the Holy Prophet’s family, who took away rida from his grand daughters, it looks more like a govt then Islamic, and who is the khaleefa now, who are we supposed to beleif if we beleive in khaleefa, we still have Imam as a way of our guidance.
U want us to respect Ayesha, now look at the ayat 32 and 33, It ask the wives of Prophet not to leave their houses, which all of the wives obeyed except Bibi Ayesha, who left the house and went to fight against Hazrat Ali in the battle of Jamaal, Ali who was born inside the Qaba, Ali who slept on the bed of Prophet at the nite of Hijrat, the same Ali who was awarded sword Zulfiqar in the battle of Ohad by God, Ali who was the Alamdar in the battle of Khyber. the same ayat then talks about the purification of Ahleybait from the sins, these are the same Ahlaybait which Holy Prophet took with him for Mubaila, even the kufaar of Mecca by lookin at these Ahleybait(Holy Prophet, Bibi Fatima, Hazrat Ali, Imam Hassan, Imam Hussain) realized how true they are and refused for Mubahila, the sad thing is we dont realize their martaba.
Here is one more hadith, I found it on islamic website with references
“Verily, I am leaving behind two precious things (thaqalayn) among you: the Book of God and my kindred (`itrah), my household (Ahl alBayt), for indeed, the two will never separate until they come back to me by the Pond (of alKawthar on the Judgement’s Day).”
here are four references for the hadith.
(Muslim says Zuhayr ibn Harb and Shujaibn Makhlad narrated to me fromUlayyah that he said: Zuhayr said: narrated to us Ismail ibn Ibrahim, from Abu Hayyan, from Yazid ibn Hayyan, who said: "I, Husayn ibn Sabrah and Umar ibn Muslim went to see Zayd ibn Arqam. When we sat down with him, Husayn said to him, ‘O Zayd, you have been greatly fortunate. You have seen the Messenger of Allah, upon whom be Allah’s peace and benedictions, heard his speech, fought with him in battles and have prayed behind him. Indeed, O Zayd, you have been enormously fortunate. Narrate to us what you have heard from the Messenger of Allah , may Allah’s peace and benedictions be upon him.’
“Zayd said: ‘O brother, by God, I have become aged and old and I have forgotten some of what I used to remember from the Messenger of Allah , upon whom be Allah’s peace and benedictions. So accept what I narrate to you and as to what I don’t, trouble me not regarding it.’ Then he said: ‘One day the Messenger of Allah , upon whom be Allah’s peace and benedictions, addressed us near a pond called Khumm between Makkah and Madinah. He praised God and extolled Him and preached and reminded (us). Then he said, “Lo, O people, I am only a human being and I am about to respond to the messenger of my Lord *. I am leaving behind two precious things (thaqalayn) among you. The first of the two is the Book of Allah. In it is guidance and light. So get hold of the Book of Allah and adhere to it.” Then he urged and motivated (us) regarding the Book of Allah . Then he said, “And my Ahl alBayt (family). I urge you to remember God regarding my Ahl alBayt. I urge you to remember God regarding my Ahl alBayt. I urge you to remember God regarding my Ahl alBayt”’” …
(Sahih Muslim, part 7, Kitab fada’il alSahabah [Maktabat wa Matbaat Muhammad Ali Subayh wa Awladuhu: Cairo] pp. 122-123.)
(AlHakim says Narrated to us Abu alHusayn Muhammad ibn Ahmad ibn Tamim alHanzali in Baghdad, from Abu Qallabah Abd alMalik ibn Muhammad alRaqqashi, from Yahya ibn Hammad; also narrated to me Abu Bakr Muhammad ibn Balawayh and Abu Bakr Ahmad ibn Jafar alBazzaz, both of them from Abd Allah ibn Ahmad ibn Hanbal, from his father, from Yahya ibn Hammad; and also narrated to us Abu Nasr Ahmad ibn Suhayl, the faqih of Bukhara, from Salih ibn Muhammad, the hafiz of Baghdad, from Khalaf ibn Salim alMakhrami, from Yahya ibn Hammad; and Yahya ibn Hammad narrated from Abu Uwwanah from Sulayman al’Amash, from Habib ibn Abi Thabit, from Abu alTufayl, from Zayd ibn Arqam, may God be pleased with him, who said: "The Messenger of Allah , may God's peace and benedictions be upon him and his progeny, while returning from his last hajj (hijjat alwada') came down at Ghadir Khumm and ordered (us) towards the big trees, and (the ground) underneath them was swept. "Then he said, 'I am about to answer the call (of death). Verily, I have left behind two precious things amongst you, one of which is greater than the other. The Book of Allah , the Exalted, and my itrah (kindred). So watch out how you treat these two after me, for verily they will not separate from each other until they come back to me by the side of the Pond.’ Then he said ‘Verily, Allah , the Almighty and the Glorious, is my master (mawla) and I am the master of every believer (mu’min).’ Then he took Ali, may God be pleased with him, by the hand and said, 'This (Ali) is the master of whomever I am his master. O God, love whoever loves him and be the enemy of his enemy.'"
(AlHakim adds “This hadith is sahih in accordance with the conditions of sihhah laid down by the Shaykhayn (alBukhari and Muslim), although they have not recorded it in its full length.”
AlHakim says The first tradition (mentioned above) is supported by this one narrated by Salamah ibn Kuhayl, from Abu alTufayl, which is also sahih according to the requirements of alBukhari and Muslim. Narrated to us Abu Bakr ibn Ishaq and Dalaj ibn Ahmad alSijzi, both of them from Muhammad ibn Ayyub, from al'Azraq ibn Ali, from Hassan ibn Ibrahim alKirmani, from Muhammad ibn Salamah ibn Kuhayl, from his father, from Abu al-Tufayl, from Ibn Wathilah that he heard Zayd ibn Arqam, may God be pleased with him, say: “The Messenger of Allah , may Allah 's peace and benedictions be upon him and his progeny, came down at a place between Makkah and Madinah near the trees with five big shades and the people swept the ground under the trees. Then the Messenger of Allah , may God’s peace and benediction be upon him and his progeny, began to perform the evening prayer. After the prayer he began to address the people. He praised God and extolled Him, preaching and reminding (us), and said what God wanted him to say. Then he said, ‘O people! Verily, I am leaving behind two matters (amrayn) among you if you follow them (the two) you will never go astray. These two are: the Book of God and my ahl albayt, my itrah.' Then he said thrice: 'Do you know that I have more right over the believers (Inni awla bi almu'minin) than they over themselves?' The people said, 'Yes.' Then the Messenger of Allah , may Allah's peace and benedictions be upon him and his progeny said, 'Of whomever I am his master (mawla) Ali also is his master.’”
(al’Imam al-Hafiz Abu Abd Allah alHakim alNaysaburi, alMustadrak ala al-Sahihayn [Dar alMarifah li alTibaah wa alNashr: Beirut), vol. iii, pp. 109-110).
(AlHakim says Narrated to us Abu Bakr Muhammad ibn alHusayn ibn Muslim, the faqih of Ray, from Muhammad ibn Ayyub, from Yahya ibn al-Mughirah alSadi, from Jarir ibn Abd alHamid, from alHasan ibn Abd Allah alNakhai, from Muslim ibn Subayh, from Zayd ibn Arqam, may God be pleased with him, who said: “The Messenger of Allah , may Allah’s peace and benedictions be upon him and his progeny, said, ‘Verily, I leave behind two precious things amongst you: the Book of Allah and my ahl albayt. Verily, the two will never separate until they come back to me by the side of the Pond.’”
(AlHakim says This hadith is sahih al’isnad according to the conditions laid down by the Shaykhayn (alBukhari and Muslim), though they did not record it. (alHakim, op. cit., vol. iii, p. 148
Brother Wasir Can you come up with better references then just playing around with the names of Hazrat Ali sons.
I also posted U a link to the website with detail references for Ghadeer-e-Khum doesn’t it help U understand why we belief in Imamat and don’t like the 3 khalifas.
http://www.al-islam.org/ghadir/
[This message has been edited by Insaniyat (edited May 25, 2001).]*
As I said before, the equation is very simple:
For the Sahaaba to turn their backs on the Prophet PBUH after his death, implies that the Prophet PBUH had a bad judgement for keeping them as companions in the first place, a bad judgement for marrying their daughters and an even badder judgement for making them record the ayats at the time of revelation.
In turn, Hazrat Jibra'eel was incorrect for revealing the Qur'aan on the authority of Allah SWTA to the Prophet PBUH, because he couldn't even tell who and what his companions were.
Therefore, ultimately Allah SWTA made a mistake for choosing the Prophet PBUH as a mercy for all mankind and a Messenger of Allah SWTA and giving him the Divine revelation of the Qur'aan.
Furthermore, Allah SWTA also didn't love the Prophet as much as you hypocrytes claim you do, for not forewarning the Prophet PBUH about the backturning by his most trusted.
Even the most naive could work this equation out, given the formula.
Let's go to the original source for reference, The Qur'aan, regarding the Prophet PBUH's capability of judgement.
Please don't quote any A'Hadeeth, as the Qur'aan takes authority.
It originally started off with cursing the Sahaaba, and has now led to accusing the Prophet PBUH of being a bad judge!
The Qur'aan was revealed to the Prophet PBUH, not to distress him(20:2)
Allah gave the Prophet PBUH, the seven oft repeated ayat and the Mighty Qur'aan.(15:87)
The Qur'aan is the speech of a noble Messenger.(69:40)
The Prophet PBUH followed the Qur'aan meticulously and thus his Sunnah is the correct interpretation of the Qur'aan.(6:50,7:2-3,10:15,46:9)
In all matters of disputes and differences, judgement should be based on the Qur'aan.(4:60-61,4:105,5:48-50)
Those who do not judge their matters by the Qur'aan are disbelievers, evildoers and transgressors.(5:44,5:45,5:47)
The Qur'aan was revealed to the Prophet PBUH so that he may bring forth mankind from the depths of darkness into the light of guidance.(14:1,65:11)
The fact is, that no mistake was ever made in choosing the Prophet PBUH as the final seal of Messengers and neither did the Prophet PBUH make any mistakes in choosing his companions.
Check the facts for yourself, and by the way this is not a cut and paste job, it's actual research! You won't find this on any web site.
I rest my case.
Sorry to my sunni brothers for my remarks above. It was said in the heat f the momment. Wasir was saying some verys tupid things too, i am not solely to blame here.
As for sahabas. Please sholy brother exmplan me who they following verses are for. While some (minority) of the "Sahaba" were honored in the Quran for their stand beside the Prophet Muhammed and their supporting of him, the majority were not that fortunate, and they were given the right description by God Almighty in the Quran. In the following part we will see how God, who knows all the secrets and declarations described some of these "Sahabas":
[49:17]
"They act as if they are doing you a favor by embracing
Submission! Say, "You are not doing me any favors by
embracing Submission. GOD is the One who is doing you a
great favor by guiding you to the faith, if you are sincere."
[9:24]
"Proclaim: "If your parents, your children, your siblings,
your spouses, your family, the money you have earned, a
business you worry about, and the homes you cherish are
more beloved to you than GOD and His messenger, and the
striving in His cause, then just wait until GOD brings
His judgment." GOD does not guide the wicked people."
[49:14]
"The Aarabs said, "We are Mu'mens (believers)." Say, "You
have not believed; what you should say is, `We are
Muslims (submitters),' until belief is established in
your hearts." If you obey GOD and His messenger, He will
not put any of your works to waste. GOD is Forgiver, Most
Merciful."
[9:45]
"The only people who wish to be excused are those who do
not really believe in GOD and the Last Day. Their hearts
are full of doubt, and their doubts cause them to waver."
[9:47]
"Had they mobilized with you, they would have created
confusion, and would have caused disputes and divisions
among you. Some of you were apt to listen to them. GOD is
fully aware of the transgressors. "
[9:81]
"The sedentary rejoiced in their staying behind the
messenger of GOD, and hated to strive with their money
and their lives in the cause of GOD. They said, "Let us
not mobilize in this heat!" Say, "The fire of Hell is
much hotter," if they could only comprehend. "
[47:29-30]
"Did those who harbor doubts in their hearts think that
GOD will not bring out their evil thoughts?
If we will, we can expose them for you, so that you can
recognize them just by looking at them. However, you can
recognize them by the way they talk. GOD is fully aware
of all your works. "
[8:6]
"They argued with you against the truth, even after
everything was explained to them. They acted as if they
were being driven to certain death. "
[47:38]
"You are invited to spend in the cause of GOD, but some of
you turn stingy. The stingy are stingy towards their own
souls. GOD is Rich, while you are poor. If you turn away,
He will substitute other people in your place, and they
will not be like you."
[9:58]
"Some of them criticize your distribution of the
charities; if they are given therefrom, they become
satisfied, but if they are not given therefrom, they
become objectors."
[47:16]
"Some of them listen to you, then as soon as they leave
they ask those who were enlightened, "What did he just
say?" GOD thus seals their hearts and, consequently, they
follow only their opinions."
[9:61]
"Some of them hurt the prophet by saying, "He is all
ears!" Say, "It is better for you that he listens to you.
He believes in GOD, and trusts the believers. He is a
mercy for those among you who believe." Those who hurt
GOD's messenger have incurred a painful retribution."
From the above Quranic verses we can see that the "Sahabas" like all the people of all generations were either good or bad. Some followed the Prophet and the message he brought them, the QURAN, and these were the MINORITY as God tells us in the Quran. see
43:78 The others could not get over their idol-worship and stayed with the hypocrites and these were the majority, as God told us in 43:78.
"We have given you the truth, but most of you hate the truth." [43:78]
______
If these were the conditions of the people who lived and witnessed the Prophet Muhammed and learned their Islam (Submission) first hand from him, how can we expect the conditions of those who lived after his death ?!
Rasool ALlah knew very well who was who. Did he not see his "sahabas" run away from the battles leaving him alone. Did not "some" doubt his abilities on the occasion of "HUdabiya". Would you call such person a friend who burns your home after you die and kill your family and take the rest hostage.
I know some people will try their best to mis-interpret my message. Some sahabas were GREAT. Abuzar Ghafari, Miqdad, Salman Farsi, Addi were as good as the friends come. They spent everything they could on Islam and the prophet. But you can not generlize and say all sahabs were good. Read Quran and find the truth yourself.
Once again this proves my point.
Out of the 'good Sahaabas, you don't mention anyone of the first caliphs, even though the Prophet PBUH actually married their daughters, and the Sahaabas also married into each others family.( Hazrat Ali did give his daughter in marriage to Hazrat Umar)
This indicates that these were the MAIN Companions and True Believers. There were actually ten main companions who have also been prophesised with the Prophet in the Parsi (Zorastarian) and Hindu Scriptures.
As far as the ayats are concerned which you have quoted, I will explain the Synopsis of Content on each one.
49:17 - In ayat 14-18, the desert arabs who had just entered the fold of Islam by their verbal profession and had shown no eagerness and interest for the cause of Islam were reminded that they had not yet become true believers. They would become True believers only if they obeyed Allah SWTA and His Messenger PBUH, in all matters of their lives and struggled hard for the cause of Allah SWTA with their riches and lives. They were told that they were wrong in asserting that they had done a favour to th Prophet PBUH,by accepting Islam. The actual surah was revealed at the last stage of the Prophets stay at Medinah and comprises various commandments for the Believers.
9:24 - In ayat 23-24, the believers were told not to be afraid of the abrogation of treaties with the associators who were now also barred from joining the Hajj. This is the only Surah which does not start with Bismillah, as it is dealing with issues which would be contrary in granting protection by the name of Allah SWTA.
49:14 - I've already dealt with this.
9:45 - In ayat 43-45, is declared Allah SWTA's forgiveness to His Prophet PBUH, for the permission he gave as a kind hearted man to some undeserving excusors not to join the expedition to Tabuk. It is the hypocrites that ask for excuse from Jihaad and not the Believers.
9:47 - In ayat 46-49, lame excuses of the hypocrites were further criticized. The believers were told that even if the hypocrites joined the expedition, they would have done nothing but added to their trobles and would have sought to stir up sedition among them.
9:81 - In ayat 81-85, the designs of the hypocrites for not taking part in the Jihad were exposed. They would say to the people'do not go forth in the heat'. They were told, 'the fire of hell is much hotter than this'. Allah SWTA informed the Prophet PBUH never to allow them to join in any further Jihad with him. HE was also commanded never to say a funeral prayer for any of the hypocrites and never stand at their graves, for they disbeleived in Allah SWTA and his Messenger and died while they were transgressors. The actual verdict was conveyed in ayat 85.
47:29-30 - In ayat 20-31, the character of the hypocrites is further exposed. They would utter the words of obedience but only to disobey. So Allah SWTA cursed them and made them deaf and blind to the Truth. This surah is named after the Prophet PBUH as it is the Truth from Allah SWTA and was revealed before the battle of Badr.
8:6 - In ayat 5-10, the believers are reminded in relation to the battle of Badr, that Allah SWTA had ordained that they should face the armed host of the Quraysh and inflict upon them a crushing defeat with His succour. This surah mainly deals with Badr and the spoils of war.
I can carry on but I'm sure you get my drift.
It must be noted that the main Companions were the Believers, so at no point can any of the above ayats apply to them, because they were not the Hypocrites. The Holy Propet PBUH proved this.
When you have no answers, everything becomes crap, doesn't it ? LOL
And I see how no one has any comments on Imam Ali's (as) speech and HIS DIRECT VIEW on the situation. He clearly states how the first 3 stole the caliphate and wen't against the prophet's (pbuh) verdict. But never mind, let's pretend its not there
Sad to see that all you can do is use names of sons to prove your point. Aur koi proof jo nahin. Chalo, koi baat nahin.
Your own sahihs have ample evidence of what crooks your caliphas were. Such proofs have been posted previously, and as now, have been ignored by you all previously.
Been there, done that. Move on.
[quote]
Originally posted by DonJuan DeMarco:
**Most of the crap deleted...not worthy of repost
If he was a God chosen Imam and didn't care about the "wordly position" of the Caliph, then why have u been crying for the past 1400 years.
**
[/quote]
This one is for A1Shah,
Please give me the exact quote for when Hazrat Ali accused his fellow companions of stealing the Caliphate!
If we were to use your reasoning, then Hazrat Ali was not worthy of Caliphate. How can he let the leadership which was expressly given to him at Ghaider Khuum, by the Prophet PBUH, be taken not once, not twice but three times from under his nose.
Either he didn't have respect for the Prophet PBUH and carried out his order, or he was afraid of his Companions, or he didn't think Islam was important enough.
For me, none of these are applicable and never will be. Hazrat Ali was greater than you could ever imagine, but you've disrespected him by your reason of thought.
I'm not surprised when you state that the Ayats from the Qur'aan are also crap.
Please think before you speak!