How High caste hindus treat low caste Dalits in India

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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Re: How High caste hindus treat low caste Dalits in India

Cheetah Uncle,

Who gives a F what the dictionary meaning of SECT and CASTE are and what the differences are? As far as I'm concerned they both serve the same purpose, of dividing our society. Both of them have created animosity and hatred between different sects/castes hence are bad enough.

I don't want to waste my time throwing textual references at you or anyone else with what's written in what ancient book and what is technically correct and endorsed. What matters most is the way it is practiced today. Muslim sects hate and fight with each other just like Hindu castes.

Instead of feeling good about ourselves by pointing out faults in the other system lets try to fix our own system first.

Mathira or Veena Malik
82

If you defy the dictionary definitions of words and make up your own definitions, then there is no point in debating with you. You've just admitted that you do not care about the authenticity of sources.

They both do not server the same purpose. Either you are not capable of understanding the basic definition or you are just too arrogant to accept it. Sects are a sub-division of religions. Castes are a system of superior/inferior classes. In sects, people do not consider themselves as superior/inferior to others - In castism, people consider others inferior/superior.
Out of the 224 million Christians in the US, in 2002, 52% were Protestants, 24% Catholic, and the rest were of other sects. What kind of animosity & hatred did that create? Nothing compared to castism.

If you want to discuss what is practiced today, there are plenty of threads on this forum pertinent to that. This thread is about castism, so do not try to derail the topic at hand. If you can't handle the posts on this topic, simply refrain from posting.

Sure Muslim sects may fight each other, but their division is not something taken directly out of scriptures. Castism on the other hand is derived directly out of Hindoo scriptures (i.e. Bhagavad Gita). And the problem of sectarian differences is no where as bad as castism, otherwise there would be international organizations addressing this problem every year (like they do with castism).

Your analogy of fighting is pathetic. It doesn't matter how they fight - what matter is what they are fighting over, and castist violence in no way resembles sectarian violence.

83

Mr. OTM,
I never said your definitions are wrong. I never said Casts and Sects are the same thing. I said they both divide our society and cause rifts between sections regardless of if that is endorsed by their respective sources. So all your allegations about me making my own definitions are nonsense and hence negated.

I don't give a F if ancient scribblings from any religion (I don't have much respect for fiction) endorse these divisions. What should matter most is that they create a rift in our societies hence should be discouraged. Comprehende Amigo? This is my last attempt.

84

I do not agree to the above statement....to both of its parts.

But the thread is about Hindu religion and its discrepancies. I hope, now the matter is clear.

85

Re: How High caste hindus treat low caste Dalits in India

Everyone keeps saying their fiction is fact :/

When did you wake up today?
86

No Sir. We are not done as you secretly wish.

You failed to show the integrity of yourself when tried to change the meaning of your post..and adding hindus to your posts after the fact when there was no discussion of hindus in your post to begin with.

You did that for whatever reason.....and I pointed out with reference from your own posts. You failed at that attempt of back tracking.

You stated some facts initially and I agreed with you on the basis of your candid remarks. Even admired you with surprise.

Now you are twisting the discussion to another direction in disagreeing to a different sentence of mine.

Its called flip-flop in simple english!!!

87

Mind-set of Muslims is always hungry for praises. More over you never miss a chance to praise Islam, whatever discussion is going on, and on the back track you or any one of your like-minded loose patience and make replies as you have done in your post.

Re Hindu religion......It has no direct rulings and no specific punishment for dishonoring its rulings.
Off course, we have some new racial-Hindus classes who want to dictate their terms and conditions on all matters (as your people always do...it’s a comparison, not bashing).

Let me tell you a scenario of psycho training.....

We Hindus mostly do not get a religious training in our childhood and for that simple reason most of us remain secular.....but all of us are told about our cast superiority or inferiority in our childhood by our parents, society etc....and these polluted ideas penetrate the children’ mind and disturb them forever in life.

And this is the unique reason that even our atheists and communists cannot cross the cast barrier when it comes to marriage relations.

Have patience and study what you actually do with child’ psychology at a madrisa! You do the same in a much broader way.

And the result you know very well.

Ps,...... Take your time and read my post with patience, that you lack very badly.

Timepass -April 2012
88

I'm a low caste hindu, i don't find any discrimination by a high caste hindu

89

First of all you have removed any chance I would consider you a man of your word. You posted something and faild miserably to backtrack since I essentially exposed your bigotry in earlier posts with proof.

Be credilbe by standibg behind your statements or simply say you screwed up. Nothing wrong with admitting mistakes.

As typical of an Indian/Hindu argument your post was irrelevant/off tract but needed a strong response so here it is...

Wrong statement. Majority muslims try to keep the check and balance since this makes them better people. As soon as someone thinks there is no room for inprovement in Islam, that person is doomed to fail.

Well, I have no shame in saying Islam is the best religion and it was absolutely in context when your statement was actually misleading. I had to respond to your biased comment.

I still say: whther you agree or not...I care not even an iota.

(See,I am not hungry for your praise at all..........:))

Islam is the best religion and not all muslims may not be best muslims.

You are defining religion on your own. I bolded your words for better understanding of my post.

Please learn something from me.

What you are saying is not the definition of religion in usual terms.

Either you are trying to fool others or worse..trying to fool yourself.

Now! I have heard of this kind of statement albeit rarely but can only get amused by someone who expresses this false statement.

Not at all. Caste system cannot be compared to religion as you repeatedly are trying to convey my friend.

Islam/christianity and caste system are two exactly opposite thought processes.

Hiduism and hindu religion promotes caste system.

Hummmmmmmmmm...... Let me hear that stereotypical, hate monger, islamophobic comment. I am listening!!!!!!!!!

You forgot to add.................... But still "We Hindus" are so passionate about our non-religious training that we do not hesitate killing non hindus.

There is a separate discussion on "secularism". No place for it here.

OK. You are coming back closer to what you originally wrote.

Thats a good sign.:)

Alrighty!

So many muslims learned that bad thing over time despite Islam prohibited that.

I do see you will eventually believe in aliens ship if watch TV any longer.

OK. But I am baffled as to how you got into that conclusion?

Should I have given you a little more time to edit/delete your post which you tried to backtrack and failed??????? ( Wink wink)

PS: Take your time and read my post with a little thinking which you actually lack.

90

Glad to hear that. You are "lucky".

Got it??? :)

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Re: How High caste hindus treat low caste Dalits in India

my religion is best blah blah blah.

Then why there is so much killing in ur religion?

now dont give the crap that everyone does not follow it properly. If they dont then you religion is not able to guide them then how it is best.

No religion is best or worst, all are equal..its the people, the followers make it good or bad.

92

If you were right for even a second then you would not have seen millions converted to Islam despite hinduism was existed in Indian subcontinent.
(Just one argument)

Don't tell me crap about forced conversion theory your grandpa told you!
Your mad-rasah is in your own very home teaching you crap about muslims like they were somehow miraculously responsible of crimes against women such as sati in hinduism.

93

read properly what i have written and then answer it. where did i talked about forced conversion or how good my religion is?

94

Yes. I wanted to make sure you did not use that logic in response to my post as so many hindus actually do use that lame argument.

Vast majority muslims do follow the basics of Islam.

The logic you used to discredit a religion based on few not so good muslims is invalid.

Hinduism does promote division of people based on their 'caste' and ill-treatment of lower cast human being. Islam is stricltly against such practice.

95

Islam divides people into belivers and non-belivers and promotes killing of unbelivers where ever they are found. Such a violent and blood thirsty religion.

People may be divided on the basis of caste. Do you have any proof that the vedas or the Gita say that the so called "lower castes" must be subjugated or that the caste is inherited?

In the Vedic period, there was no discrimination against shudras(so called lower castes). Gita says that one's varna is to be understood from one's personal qualities and one's karma (work), not one's birth. In its initial period, the caste system was flexible and it was merit and job based. One could migrate from one caste to other caste by changing one's profession. This view is supported by records of sages from the so-called "lower castes" who became Brahmins. For example, the Sage Vishwamitra belonged to kshyatria caste, and only later became recognized as a great Brahmin sage, indicating that his caste was not determined by birth. Similarly, Valmiki, once a low-caste robber, became a great sage. Veda Vyasa another sage, was the son of a fisherwoman. Vashista was a shudra and he became sage later and the mentor of Lord Rama.

96

Your post amused me. No credibility whatsoever.

Read below and get enlightened!!

Perhaps you can learn something from these few facts and not stories as you posted.

NSM KnowledgeBase - #6360 - 1,000 Lower-caste Hindus Convert to Christianity in India&

The articles below indicate that the current Indian government’s pro-Hindu bias is beginning to backfire. In particular, great numbers of Indian citizens who are often known as “untouchables” - i.e., below the ancient four-tiered caste system - **are abandoning Hinduism for other religions, such as Buddhism, Christianity and Islam, where caste is not a part of the religious teaching, as it is in Hinduism. **

Untouchable @ National Geographic Magazine

“…One night, while Maurya was away in a nearby city, eight men from the higher Rajput caste came to his farm. They broke his fences, stole his tractor, beat his wife and daughter, and burned down his house. The message was clear: Stay at the bottom where you belong.”…

India: ‘Hidden Apartheid’ of Discrimination Against Dalits (Human Rights Watch, 13-2-2007)

(New York, February 13, 2007) – India has systematically failed to uphold its international legal obligations to ensure the fundamental human rights of Dalits, or so-called untouchables, despite laws and policies against caste discrimination, the Center for Human Rights and Global Justice and Human Rights Watch said in a new report released today. More than 165 million Dalits in India are condemned to a lifetime of abuse simply because of their caste.

The 113-page report, “Hidden Apartheid: Caste Discrimination against India’s ‘Untouchables’,”](http://www.hrw.org/reports/2007/india0207/) was produced as a “shadow report” in response to India’s submission to the United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination (CERD), which monitors implementation of the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination (ICERD). The committee will review India’s compliance with the convention during hearings in Geneva on February 23 and 26.

http://www.arts.ualberta.ca/cms/mahey.pdf

The creation of a number of Hindu religious books including the
Manusmriti, Atharva Vedas, Vishnu smriti, and many others like these and their
strict compliance by the Brahmans (upper priestly hindu caste), led to a society in
which equality between men and women was far from existent (Agarwal).

97

And how is your post credible? All you have done is provide some links about dalits converting and stuff. I agree that there are 4 castes- Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Shudra based on their occupation and not birth. Just because rot has set into the social structure, it doesn't prove that "*Hinduism does promote division of people based on their 'caste' and ill-treatment of lower cast human being" *as you claimed. It is similar to me claiming that Islam promotes terrorism, female genital mutilation and Honor killings. Do you think it is correct to blame Islam for the social degradation of its followers ? That being said, I do not support discrimination of people based on any criteria. People must be given a chance to better their life and live with dignity irrespective of caste, creed, sect or religion

The hindu religious texts are also called Sruti(the 4 vedas-Rig, Yajur, Sama and Atharva). This cannot be changed or modified just like you cannot modify the Quran. This is the supreme authority. Do you have any evidence from the Vedas which talks about ill-treating or stating that caste system is hereditary and that people of "lower castes" must be suppressed? I have recently started developing an interest in various religions (Hinduism among them) and it would be nice if you can point me in the right direction with some examples from the 4 vedas

I also see that you have mentioned the Manusmriti and Vishnusmrithi. Do you even know what the Smrithis are ? Smrithis are not the final authority. If there is anything in a Smriti which contradicts the Sruti, the Smriti is to be rejected. So we can reject the authenticity of Manusmriti etc just because it contradicts the Vedas and cannot be considered a part of the religion. The people are enpowered here to think , verify and accept a code of life. Just because people choose to ignore the law of a country does not mean the law is biased. Same is the case here. Another reason why we don't have to follow the smritis are because they time-bound scriptures. A new age gets a new smriti. So not only is manusmriti and vishnusmriti outdated, they are also irrelevant. You can sort of consider the constitution of India to be the Smriti of this age. I am however curious about what instances of caste suppression you found in the Atharvaveda (last link)

98

At least what I did was to provide credible links. I did not want to beat this argument to death nor I wanted to spend more time than needed on this issue so I held myself on these few random yet credible evidences to support my point.

I am glad you said just because someone broke some rules does not mean the rules are bad. Exactly same argument what I said when I answered to Chintu.

There is no proof absolutely what you mentioned about islam and I will not answer you just because the discussion is already too far gone and it will go out of the bound of the topic of this thread which is:

How badly hindus treat lower cast fellow citizens.

Why not admit it that hinduism divided people on false basis!!!!

I read its based on birth in certain family (which may have a particular occupation or line of work)

You admit its based on their occupation only.

The point is that its plain and simple wrong to divide people in to high and low "caste".

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Re: How High caste hindus treat low caste Dalits in India

I think we've all made our points clear.

Thread closed. Thank you all for participating.