Re: Hamas bring misrey to Palestinians: EU, US stop aid
^ And I suppose Israelis have never attacked or killed any civilians?
Re: Hamas bring misrey to Palestinians: EU, US stop aid
^ And I suppose Israelis have never attacked or killed any civilians?
Ya but that is collateral damage...
Look at the Pakistani Army when they conducted operations in Waziristan, Innocent people were killed but again its collateral damage.
Innocent people die when military operations are conducted in populated areas or when terrorists hide among the civilian populations
but the difference is that Israel does not deliberately kill palestinian civilians where as Hamas does
Re: Hamas bring misrey to Palestinians: EU, US stop aid
but the difference is that Israel does not deliberately kill palestinian civilians where as Hamas does
Matter of opinion.
Sp what you are saying is that killing civilians under the guise of colateral damage is acceptable. Well think again.
Re: Hamas bring misrey to Palestinians: EU, US stop aid
Yes it is...
There is a difference between the Army conducts operation simply to kill innocent people look at what happens when the Russian Army conducted operations just to kill Chechens by going into villages rounding up all the men and shooting them so that the Chechen population will not be able to breed. Thats mass murder and that is different from what Israel does in the occupied territories when it targets Hamas or Islamic Jihad terrorists. They hide behind civilians and innocent civilians are killed when Israel targets them. There is a Major difference...
Let me give you some historical examples of acceptable Collateral Damage and non-acceptable Collateral Damage.
1 - The Roman Empire burns down Jerusalem and kills 17,000 people in 77 AD. Brutal Mass Murder just to punish rebellious Jews.
2 - The Crusaders conquer Jerusalem in the 1st Crusade and kill 150,000 people on July 7, 1099. Brutal mass Murder.
3 - The Spanish Conquistadors destroy the Aztec and Incan Empires during the 15th Century. Brutal Mass Murder.
4 - USA and Allied Air forces bomb Hamburg, Germany in 1943 killing 40,000 people, bomb Tokyo, Japan in March 1945 killing 150,000 people, bomb Nagasaki in August 1945 kill 75,000 people. Brutal Mass Murder. Notice I left out the atomic bombing of Hiroshima which in my opinion was justified to end the war. The bombing of Nagasaki was not valid since the Japanese Emperor didnt go down to Hiroshima to inspect the destruction caused by the bomb and since could not aquesque to the Allied demands of surrender.
5 - 250,000 Berliners die in the Battle of Berlin in April 1945. Those casualties are justified since the German Army's refusal for surrender and their tenacity of fighting the 2.5 Million Zhukov's 2nd Belorussian Front Forces. The civilians were caught up in collateral damage as members of the German Army and the Russian forces fought it out in Berlin.
6 - USA's indiscriminate bombing of North Korean cities during the Korean War in 1950-53, kills 1 million North Koreans. Collateral damage not justified.
7 - USA's indisciminate bombing of North Vietnamese cities during the Vietnam War in 1963-1975, Operation Rolling Thunder 1965-1968, leads to 1 Million North Vietnamese deaths. Collateral Damage semi-justified since North Vietnamese on purpose build high-value targets such as the Oil Refinery, Major shipping docks and weapons facilities and SAM (Surface to Air Missiles) near populated areas such as the Polish Mission center which housed over 50,000 people.
8 - Syria kills 20,000 Sunni Arabs during the Al-Hama Massacare in 1982. No trial, no one has ever been held accountable for that mass murder where as Arabs continue to blame Ariel Sharon for the massacare of Sabra and Shatilla in 1982. What they fail to realize is that days before the massacare, Pierre Gemayel, the leader of the Christians in Lebanon was assasssinated by PLO gunmen. Since Yasser Arafat had fled Beirut in August 1982, the Christian Militia loyal to Gemayel beleived that the PLO gunmen were hiding in the Palestinian refugee camps. They asked Israel to provide flares and search lights as the Militia searches the camp for PLO gunmen who assassinated Gemayel. The Militia doesn't find the gunmen but instead they massacare 2,000 Palestinan refugees in anger of Gemyael's death. Sharon's biggest mistake was to beleive that the Militia can behave like a professional army and not undisciplined gun totting murderers. And yet the entire Arab world blames Sharon for the massacare where as the Christian Militia and their commander still live in luxury in Beirut.
Overall, I am a pro-Israeli Pakistani. I beleive in close Israel-Pakistan ties. I believe that most arabs are hypocrites and only care about their own personal benefit and its about time that Pakistan started looking for its own benefit.
Re: Hamas bring misrey to Palestinians: EU, US stop aid
Just because armies in the past have killed innocent people under the guise of collateral damage does not justify or make it acceptable. It is simply butchery and murder of innocent people. you have made a very poor attempt to absolve Sharon from the Sabra and shatilla murders. Just because he turned a blind eye knowing full well what was going on inside the camps does not make him an innocent person. What do you think Sharon thought the Christian militias were doing in there, distributing charity?
You are entitled to your opinion but do not try and justify state sponsored terrorism as collateral damage.
Re: Hamas bring misrey to Palestinians: EU, US stop aid
Did u even read what I have stated there???
The leaders of the Christian forces in lebanon was killed by PLO gunmen.
Obviously, the IDF cannot enter a Palestinan refugee camp nor it had any intention of doing so.
It allowed the Christian Militia, the phelange, to enter the camps to search for the gunmen, but they instead killed 2000 people as revenge for the murder of their leader.
Obviously Sharon should have been a better judge of character and knew the barbarity of which the lebanese civil war had taken place, he should have known that the militias will not act in a disciplined manner once they enter the camps and for that reason, the Israeli commission found him partialy responsible...
But where was the Arab commission on the Al-Hama massacare when 20,000 sunni arabs were killed by Syria in 1982?
Where was the Lebanese inquiry into the massacare and why are the leaders of the Christian militia still living in his house in Beirut??
Is it because, that any action taken by Jews and Israelis no matter how insignificant is greatly exaggarated to fit the common stereotype as Jews being the old enemy of muslims and that crimes committed by Arabs and other muslims is glanced over.
Isn't it true, that if Israel was a Christian country or a Druze country instead of a Jewish country, the Arab countries would have long made peace with Israel instead of launching the 6 Day war in 1967 and forcing Israel to occupy the Gaza Strip, West Bank and the Golan Heights.
Why is it there is this common myth among muslims that Israel wants to expand from the mediterranean sea to the euphrates river??
If that is the case, then why did Israel give up the Sinai peninsula in 1982 or withdrew from the Gaza Strip and almost withdrew from the Golan heights in 1995, but had to deal with other matters as Hamas terrorists blew up buses in Israel.
"What do you think Sharon thought the Christian militias were doing in there, distributing charity?"
As to your question. Sharon thought that the Christian militias were looking for the gunmen who killed Pierre Gemayel, the Christian leader. Since Israel had very few allies in the muslim world, and turning down the only allies it had in the Middle East would be a tactical mistake at the exact moment when the Christians needed the Israelis the most when their leadership had been decapitated by Hezbollah, PLO and Muslim attacks.
Re: Hamas bring misrey to Palestinians: EU, US stop aid
Informative posts mercenary. Thank you. May I ask what do you do for a living?
Re: Hamas bring misrey to Palestinians: EU, US stop aid
I am a student.
I go to the University of Western Ontario, in Canada.
I finished my degree in Computer Science and Software Engineering Specialization
And Now I am finishing my second degree in Economics
I am a news junkie, and love reading about the military, politics, and geo-political situations.
Re: Hamas bring misrey to Palestinians: EU, US stop aid
I don't wish to derail the thread but to say that Sharon thought that they were only looking for the killer and it never crossed his mind that they might indulge in killing, keeping in mind what had gone on there before just goes to show what a moron Sharon is. Poor poor judgement on his part but than I don't buy this argument of Sharon didn't know what was going on.
Re: Hamas bring misrey to Palestinians: EU, US stop aid
So you are telling me that Sharon on purpose allowed the Christian Militia free reign to murder 2,000 innocent people at Sabra and Shatilla?
What does Israel, Sharon gain from all this?
The PLO had been driven out of Lebanon and to Tunis in August 1982. The Israeli Army was now beginning to withdraw from Lebanon to the southern perimter which they would hold until May 2000.
This massacare of innocent palestinian civilians caused the largest demonstrations in Israel's history.
So I ask again, if this was the aim of Sharon all along, to allow the rampaging Christian militia to murder 2,000 people in those refugee camps, what did Sharon think he hoped to gain from doing this?
Re: Hamas bring misrey to Palestinians: EU, US stop aid
Weird, I always thought blowing up a public bus up was a ‘declaration of war’. And why won’t Israel just accept Hamas offer of ‘quiet for quiet’, at least give Hamas time to prepare for war.
Hamas: Israel severing security ties with PA is 'declaration of war'
The Palestinian leadership reacted furiously Monday to Israel's decision to sever ties with the Palestinian government, with Hamas calling the move "a declaration of war," and Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas accusing Israel of breaking international law.
Prime Minister-designate Ehud Olmert said Sunday that Israel would end relations with the PA, which it now viewed as a "hostile" entity, and would act to prevent Hamas from becoming an established government.
The decision comes two weeks after the new Hamas-led Palestinian government was sworn in by Abbas, and several days after Hamas offered Israel "[quiet for quiet](http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/703421.html)."
[http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/704141.html](http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/704141.html)Re: Hamas bring misrey to Palestinians: EU, US stop aid
Interesting responses.
I suppose many wanted a puppet government, but unfortuante for them that Palestinian people elected another party.
The party in power should stay strong and make sensible decisions. Picking fights with others won't do them any good. They should do what Palestinians want them to do. Afterall, it's the Palestinians that brought them into power. Represent their people and all will turn out well, insha'Allah.
Re: Hamas bring misrey to Palestinians: EU, US stop aid
i’m not talking about history 'im talking about science and economics:D…my fields of study…i sincerely believe politics is just a dust mirage…given to shallow minds to discuss opinions without discussing the disturbings facts…no one is talking about the real issue that makes the israel/palestinians fight:Water conflict…but if you guys prefer to ignore facts..and keep on babbling about hypotheses…go on:halo:
Re: Hamas bring misrey to Palestinians: EU, US stop aid
.....no one is talking about the real issue that makes the israel/palestinians fight:Water conflict....but if you guys prefer to ignore facts..and keep on babbling about hypotheses...go on
I don't see Hamas having "water conflict" at the top of their agenda. Sources? Merci.
Re: Hamas bring misrey to Palestinians: EU, US stop aid
Reasons why EU and others are stopping aid against Palestinians is because Hamas haven't renoune violence, haven't recognize Israel's right to exist and express clear support for Middle East peace process, as outlined in the Oslo Accords.
The problem is not Hamas getting elected or Palestinian's choice to represent them. Hamas must denouce violence as their agenda in order to blend in with the world community. We can go back and forth on opinions and/ or hypocrites but the point is when you form a government, you are no longer a millitant group, rather than representing the entire population with diverse views and lifestyle. Hamas does not represent that won't be able to stand and deliever, if the Middle East peace process continues. It is a loss for Palestinians and Hamas must change their way, if they want something better for their people. They can not fight or survive alone.
Re: Hamas bring misrey to Palestinians: EU, US stop aid
lol…did Bush have OIL on top of his reasons to invade America 
…politcal people are puppets and lyers:Dthe only thing they want is the power…and get elected…the real governing thing is done in the shadows of the mass media:halo:
Isreal has more money…hence more power to negociate against palestine…and hamas knows it…the only for them to get something now…is to weaken israel…and they know it too;)
afterwards they will be able to tackel the real water issue…but some urgent things are trying to get the power to negociate the right to water…it’s not easy:D
Re: Hamas bring misrey to Palestinians: EU, US stop aid
why do Israel need a separate state??? why not joining arabs and jews???
if people are so eager to see peace and “stop violence” why do they saw the seeds of war:halo:…EU and USA did a mistake by allowing the jews to form a separate state…and they don’t wanna recognise..it’s painfull to accept mistake…but those who made it are dead…so why westerners of today still defend they stupid forefathers?
Re: Hamas bring misrey to Palestinians: EU, US stop aid
Hmmm! Interesting! Well if weakening Israel is Hamas's main goal, then they are mighty successful in it. I already see Israelis begging Hamas and asking not to weaken Israel.
Re: Hamas bring misrey to Palestinians: EU, US stop aid
:Dlol Israeli are not as stupid as you think:D..they won’t let themselves be weakened by poor ressourceless Hamas without taking action:halo:…their first action was to get USA and EU stop funding Palestine…
i would say that Isreal once again is winnning