Hadith and Sunnah: Satanic Innovations?

Society Religion & Philosophy
21

[quote]
Originally posted by sholay:
**
Now that I have returned from my well earned break, I will get down to business.

Not too deep, as this forum is starting to bore me a little and I will move on no doubt.

But for the time being, here are a few questions for AMY.

You stated:This is precisely what happened after the prophet Muhammad's death; Hadith (oral) and Sunna (actions) were invented and attributed to the Prophet. Hadith and Sunna are satanic innovations..........

How many times does the Qur'aan tell us to worship our Lord and pray(salaat)to Him?

How many times does the Qur'aan show us the actions of prayer etc i.e. rakat,times and so forth?

In which chapter of the Qur'aan are we taught how to specifically perform Salaat.

Once you have answered, we can deal with A'Hadeeth.**
[/quote]

Your questions are genuine and I have answered all these questions in the other thread about the validity of hadith. I have also provided all the references from quran where all this is explained.

Punjabi Kurhi

22

Amy,

I kind of agree with you to some extent, as I myself don't recommend that we run after Hadith Books (instead of Quran) for guidance in every little matter of life. However, we should be careful enough not to take it towards the other extereme. I believe that whatever is presented to me, if it doesn't contradict the soul of Quranic teachings as I have understood it, I should accept it.

Now most of the Hadith books are pretty harmless in the sense that very rarely you will find an instance when the hadith in consideration seems to be in contradiction with Quran. And in this case, obviously the right thing to do is to reject the hadith but nor Quran. So we should have a sound knowledge of what's said in Quran, but that shouldn't stop us from studying Hadith, as if something looks suspicious, i know where to turn to: The Quran.

If Propher Muhammed had just given out the Quranic verses as they were revealed and had not done any work himself, do you think Islam would have reached where it is now. Obviously not, he lived what was in Quran, and obviously, as a Muslim i'd be interested in knowing how he lived his life and behaved in different situations. It's much easier to follow the practical examples, especially for people who are not fortunate enough to thoroughly study, and thus understand Quran. (It is our duty - no doubt, but not all of us are fotunate enough, and we cannot just banish them).

Quran tells me to be nice to people, and if I read somewhere that Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) once stood in respect when the lady who fed her came to see him - why should I have any problem accepting that. And why should I not read other books on his life, and study Hadith to see what he said and did in PARTICULAR situations of his life. Emphasis being on particular!

It bothers (rather irritates) me too when some people (especially in conversations) give too many references from hadith books, talk as if their leader is the compiler of that book, and not Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) himself. But don't you think that it's ok to study and learn from hadith as long as we don't forget that a Hadith is only a practical example of what's said in Quran, and we should always rely on, and give preference to Quran whenever we seek guidance.

It is true that sometimes some overenthusiastic (I don't want to judge them by calling them something else) people go too far and insert their own interpretation, and even fabricate stories (God knows all), but should we let these people deprive us of the right to study about Prophet's (PBUH) life and teachings. And is to fair to judge the sincere acts of some people who try to gather information about the Prophet's (PBUH) life for other people's use as satanic ? Can't we just be careful about what we study and still be able to learn from examples we find in the life of our holy Propher (PBUH) ??

My ten cents, and Allah almighty is the ultimate judge.

23

Amy, why not work towards eliminating other far dangerous stantic innovations that Islam is suffering from today? Why make a belief system an innovation and leave all other true innovations which people are following blindly on the name of Islam? I will have more on this but please read this short quotes:

The imaams denounced those who go against the Sunnah.

Al-Tirmidhi narrated in his Sunan that one of the scholars of the madhaahib said: Salaat al-istisqaa’ (prayer for rain) should not be done, but they should make du’aa’ and then leave, all of them. Abu ‘Eesa said: this is against the Sunnah.

Al-Bukhaari (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in his Saheeh:

Chapter on following the Sunnah of the Prophet (saas) (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him):

Ibn ‘Awn said: there are three things which I love for myself and my brothers: this Sunnah, that they should learn about it and ask about it; the Qur’aan, that they should seek to understand it and ask about it; and that they should leave people alone unless it is for a good reason.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, Kitaab al-I’tisaam bi’l-Kitaab wa’s-Sunnah).

Let those people fear Allaah who think of the Sunnah as unimportant and say it is only the matter of externals and does not matter, and they go against it deliberately, thinking that this proves how moderate and reasonable they are, as they claim. They are doomed and lost, for the Sunnah of our Prophet (saas) (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is most dear to us.

May Allaah help us follow and adhere to way of Prophet(saw). Amin.

24

Basit:

You keep quoting bukhari, I have already stated my opinion about bokhari and I just didn't wake up one day and decided that bokhari was talking garbage, I understood quran and only then I found what a lie bokhari and rest of the garbage was.

25

assalamu alaa manitaba al Huda!

Don't bother arguing with Amy--I have sussed her out; she belongs to that sect of zindeeqs who deny the hadith totally whether these hadith are sahih, tawatir etc. There leader was a satan called Rashid Khilafah.
They also go by the name of The Submitters. They deny the necessity of hadith. Whereas the Qur'an says, "Obey Allah and Obey The Messenger".and
"Whatever the Messenger gives you, take it and whatever he stops you from refrain from it" and
"He speaks nothing of his own desire. It is WAHY send down to him." (sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam)

My advice for you all is to keep away from such satanic misguided ppl.

La hawla wa la quwwata ilah billah.

[This message has been edited by Asif (edited June 10, 2001).]

26

Asif

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

Correct me if I’m wrong, but you have just violated one of the most basic tenets of “Sufism”. Back to square one.

They shoot partypoopers, don’t they?

27

Mr. PP I am afraid you are wrong. All of the great Sufis have always insisted that Sufism must always be within the boundaries of the shar’iat and anybody who claims to be a Sufi and does not follow the shar’iat is a deviant. Sufismis not something extra to Islam–rather it is the heart of Islam, the internal aspect of the shar’iat if you will.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

And the most important aspect of shar’iat is aqeedaH and the rubbish amy is posting goes against the most fundamental tenets of islamic aqeedaH and hence i am totally correct in criticising her zindiqiyyat.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

28

My dear Asif, you have completely misunderstood me I’m afraid.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

My point was not about the content of her postings. I was, in actual fact, referring your comment which I quoted above. You called her satanic.

That is what I meant by the violation of a basic tenet in Sufism. From my experience in observing this field, I know that such comments are not sanctioned as part of the apropriate behaviour which is meant to be observed by a Sufi, Muslim etc. Your reference to her being “satanic” is completely beyond your jurisdiction as a Muslim. Only God has the authority to label people as “satanic” or “Kafir”.

It is up to you to decide what you are going to do about it. We can argue about this till the cows come home. But the basic fact is that “taqabbur” is a facet of the individual which is completely disliked by God Almighty.

As far as the teachings of the Qur’an in this connection are concerned, it is quite obvious that the Qur’an does not promote any such reactions, even in the worst of conditions. The Qur’an, on the other hand, teaches the Muslims to be most forgiving, and asks them to control their anger even in the worst of situations. The Qur’an, thus does not want Muslims to react to provocative and inciting conditions. It asks them to keep their cool under all circumstances. The Qur’an says:

  • “Nor can goodness and evil be equal. Return (evil) with what is best. Then will he between whom and thee was hatred become as it were thy friend and intimate. And no one can exercise this except those are steadfast (in the way of Allah); no one except persons of the greatest good fortune.” (Fussilat 41: 34 - 35)"

These are the teachings of the Qur’an for all those situations where a person is prone to lose his temper and take some rash actions. You should, therefore try to maintain your cool under all situations and avoid all reactionary steps.

If any person is disrespectful towards the Qur’an, any Muslim personality and even the Prophet (pbuh), we are advised by the Qur’an not even to return any bad comments about that person. Even in such inciting circumstances, a Muslim should advise such people according to the following directive of the Qur’an:

  • “Call to the way of your Lord with (great) wisdom and solicitude and argue with them in ways that are most gracious. (And remember that) your Lord knows best those who have strayed from His path and (also) those that have received guidance.” (Al-Nahl 16: 125)

Your response to this will be quite indicative of your true piety as a Muslim, and in the level of piety you have attained in reaching the threshold of the Sufi.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

My fondest regards to you and those aound you.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

They shoot partypoopers, don’t they?

29

mmmmmmmmm what was this topic about? oh I see: satanic innovations

Punjabi Kurhi

30

Dear amy

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

Rest assured, you are most welcome to call us satanic and whatever else you like. In fact, I must confess I rather enjoy it.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

The reason why I have asked Asif, not you, to refrain from making derogatory remarks, is indicative of a difference of a relation between me and him, as opposed to between me and you. Like all others who have posted for a long time in this forum I regard him as my friend. Note the diference. Thus I have every right upon him to say what I feel should be said. Whether he agrees or disagrees is not relevant. I know he will hear me out. I would do the same for him.

Your persistence in the use of disrespectful and emotional remarks, I’m afraid, rather gums up the works in the relations between us all and you, right at the outset. Even if we try to hear you out, you do not attempt to hear us out. So where does the chance arise for us to agree to disagee?

I am sure you will agree that the position of the Qur’an, the Prophet (pbuh) and his companions is not so vulnerable that a negative remark by “someone” would spoil it. Their position is not only established but fully acknowledged by history. We must, therefore remember that “spitting at the sun does not hurt the sun, but proves our own level of intelligence.”

They shoot partypoopers, don’t they?

31

[quote]
Originally posted by amy:
** Are you a fortune teller? or your pee brain is only capable of spitting garbage. Consider this a civilized response to your stupid comment. I don't think you want uncivilized response from me. That may deprive of sleep for a few days.
**
[/quote]

I doubt that too

32

Amy,
Now that you are trying to say that we should not run after hadith. So are u saying that the work of Bukhari, Muslim, Tirmizi, Abu Dawood are wrong. That in itself is a kinda baseless argument.

What i want to know is that what made you say that we should not "run" after hadith. Some complicated cases are not directly refered to in the quran. So where do we go. Who has the supposed devine konwledge? I personally dont think that ANY man is in a position to pass his judejement and make it Islamic Law. Only those laws are Islamic that were implemented by the prophet (saw) or are directly stated in teh Quran. The Preference being the second...obviously...
But without the hadith we would not have the situations in which the ayats were reveled and we might also lose the real meaning.

My question is. Now that you claim that Hadith and sunnah might be stanic innovations then what do know that hte prophet did?

33

........amy............

Now I am confirmed......
Are you a Jaiz, Halal child of your father
Go and have a DNA test done and you will find out who your father is

.....the devil, Saitan
Mr Iblis

34

To All:

Amy..(I mean Amanda Davies--she sent me hate mail to my email address calling me amongst other things a motherf****r) is a Submitter--they are Kaafirs who call themselves Muslims and follow a kaafir called Rashid Khilafa. These Kaafirs believe that you should only follow the Qur'an and not the hadith at all.
Because I guessed correctly that she belonged to this group of kaafirs she sent me email full of hate to my university email address. I expect she will now send me PMs full of hate.

La'nat Allah alaa kadhibeen.

35

Is she even a Submitter? I checked out their website and even their deviant creed forbids alcohol - whereas Amanda in another post tries to defend the drinking of alcohol.

My theory on the matter is that she is a Christian or an aethist, who is merely pinching ideas off of the Submitters' website in a vain and futile attempt to discredit Islam.

36

For the record, Amy is a JEW.

She slipped up once, unintentionaly, whilst making a comment.

37

Mr. Partypooper:

How did I know that you won't be able to restrain yourself. History tells us that a person who tell the truth like it is, is always alone against a gang. For clarification, I'm a jew, a christian and most of all I'm a Muslim. The only problem is that I am not brain washed into believing certain things that most people in this forum seem to believe.

From my perspective, in a public domain forum like this, when people disagree with the content of a particular post, they have two choices: In the first scenario, they can criticize the content only, and continue the debate in a civilized manner, which might resolve the differences or both parties may continue to run parallel for a while till they both run out of steam and debate will end in impasse, but they would still be talking and discussing other matters. In the second scenario, people can choose to not only criticize the content but also the author of the content, which is fine by me, except that when they do that, they have to be prepared for any type of response that'll come to them. I am really not sorry for anything I have said and will not hesitate to respond in the same or harsher manner to any or all personnal attacks. After all, I an posting some very painfull truths about the religion.

Punjabi Kurhi

38

Very interesting site… www.Quran.org

Here Mr Rashad Khalifah himself translates a Quranic ayat as:

Whoever obeys the messenger is obeying God. As for those who turn away, we did
not send you as their guardian." (4:79-80)

and also beleives in:

“This (Quran) is the utterance of an honorable messenger. It is not the utterance of a poet; rarely do you believe. Nor is it the utterance of a soothsayer; rarely do you take heed. A revelation from the Lord of the universe. HAD HE EVER UTTERED ANY OTHER RELIGIOUS UTTERANCES (attributed to us), we would have punished him severely, then we would have stopped the revelation to him (fired him). None of you could have protected him against us.” (69:40-47)

and then he concludes that we should not follow Hadith & Sunna. how come at one point he says that in Quran Allah commands to follow Mohammed PBUH in order to obey Allah and then he also beleives that Allah would have punished Mohammed PBUH if he had uttered something that Allah didn’t want. Does this “so-called” Dr know the history? does he know what Allah’s punishments are? was Mohammed PBUH punished? of course no, then it means that he didn’t say what Allah didn’t want.

And as Allah commanded us to obey Mohammed PBUH, so we should follow his footsteps. if Allah didn’t want us to do this, Allah would have said to follow ONLY & ONLY Quran and not Prophet PBUH.

wallah, He (Allah) is the ONLY who can guide, and HE is the one who can blind you even if all the lights are present and your eyes are open.

We oughta be Changez like, don’t we?

39

amy.....
What a sweet person you look in this post, everybody would say that, but not me or anybody who have read your most posts or PMs.

Don't worry about "painful facts" about Islam but take care of your own religion.

If you are so brave tell us your religion and we will prove it a bulk of soil infront of Islam.
But I know you wouldn't, caz you don't have any religion at all, Saitan doesn't have any religion.

And don't worry if some body calls you with bad names because they have to, you don't understand any other language.

[quote]
Originally posted by amy:
**Mr. Partypooper:

How did I know that you won't be able to restrain yourself. History tells us that a person who tell the truth like it is, is always alone against a gang. For clarification, I'm a jew, a christian and most of all I'm a Muslim. The only problem is that I am not brain washed into believing certain things that most people in this forum seem to believe.

From my perspective, in a public domain forum like this, when people disagree with the content of a particular post, they have two choices: In the first scenario, they can criticize the content only, and continue the debate in a civilized manner, which might resolve the differences or both parties may continue to run parallel for a while till they both run out of steam and debate will end in impasse, but they would still be talking and discussing other matters. In the second scenario, people can choose to not only criticize the content but also the author of the content, which is fine by me, except that when they do that, they have to be prepared for any type of response that'll come to them. I am really not sorry for anything I have said and will not hesitate to respond in the same or harsher manner to any or all personnal attacks. After all, I an posting some very painfull truths about the religion.

**
[/quote]

[This message has been edited by wasir (edited June 13, 2001).]

40

wasir,

I think we should all calm down. The use of such language is completely unwarranted.

amy,

If I have offended you in any of my comments to you, I wholeheartedly apologise. Rest assured, that was not my intention.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

They shoot partypoopers, don’t they?