ahem
Baluchi tribes' who don't give jack about Central Govt.
Read article: States within a States by Irfan Hussian. He has painted a visible picture for you, Imdad brother. :)
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Imdad Ali: *
Isn't that the same argument you use for Kashmir? The baluchis are doing what they think they need to do to win their rights.
[/QUOTE]
Don't throw off the topic..We are not talking about kashmir we are talking about Baluchistan, it is a non-sequitter fallacy to bring in Kashmir. Now that you have once again tried to avert the question: Do you believe Baluchis being discussed here are freedom fighters or terrorists? NO I didn't ask for what others believe, what Pakistanis believe, but rather YOUR personal beliefs? Enough is enough it's time you start making your anti-Pakistan rhetoric known to everyone.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by RajputFury: *
Don't throw off the topic..We are not talking about kashmir we are talking about Baluchistan, it is a non-sequitter fallacy to bring in Kashmir. Now that you have once again tried to avert the question: Do **you* believe Baluchis being discussed here are freedom fighters or terrorists? NO I didn't ask for what others believe, what Pakistanis believe, but rather YOUR personal beliefs? Enough is enough it's time you start making your anti-Pakistan rhetoric known to everyone.
[/QUOTE]
They are fighting for their rights that the governemnt has denied them since 1947. I don't see how this makes them anything but freedom fighters. These people were massacred by Bhutto and no government ever kept its promises to them. It is no surprise that they are bitter.
Now please tell me how telling the facts make me anti Pakistani? And why do you think they are terrorists?
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Pakistani Tiger: *
*ahem
Baluchi tribes' who don't give jack about Central Govt.
[/quote]
Good for them, since central govnt doesn't give jack about baluchi tribes or anyone else.
[quote]
Read article: States within a States by Irfan Hussian. He has painted a visible picture for you, Imdad brother. :)
[/QUOTE]
What state is Irfan Hussian talking about? The Army, the feudal lords, tribals, industrialists, or politicians?
Temper Temper 
Wrong.
Govt. does. Afterall, we have a PM from a Baluchi tribe. 
Losin’ the argument, Imdad?
Keep your mouth shut, eyes open and read conclusion Iran Hussian laid out since you can’t agree with me.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Pakistani Tiger: *
Wrong.
Govt. does. Afterall, we have a PM from a Baluchi tribe. ;)
[/quote]
Govnt does nothing at all other than cry about Kashmir.
[quote]
Losin' the argument, Imdad?
Keep your mouth shut, eyes open and read conclusion Iran Hussian laid out since you can't agree with me.
[/QUOTE]
What argument? You have no arguement. I don't need a commie like Irfan Hussian to think for me.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Imdad Ali: *
Govnt does nothing at all other than cry about Kashmir.
[/quote]
Here you go again:
How the Kashmir comes in my reply of a PM from a Baluchi tribe? You're missin' a picture brother. :)
[quote]
What argument? You have no arguement. I don't need a commie like Irfan Hussian to think for me.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, I do got valid argument. Iran did mention what I've been sayin' throughout this thread's discussion. How the hell Govt. suppose to cool down situation between the two tribes since they don't want to?
Don't you worry Imdad, Irfan doesn't know even your name. How the hell he suppose to think about you? ;)
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Pakistani Tiger: *
Here you go again:
How the Kashmir comes in my reply of a PM from a Baluchi tribe? You're missin' a picture brother. :)
Yes, I do got valid argument. Iran did mention what I've been sayin' throughout this thread's discussion. How the hell Govt. suppose to cool down situation between the two tribes since they don't want to?
Don't you worry Imdad, Irfan doesn't know even your name. How the hell he suppose to think about you? ;)
[/QUOTE]
What are you talking about? Rajput asked me if balochis were terrorists or freedom fighters. I pointed him towards Kashmir where one side calls them terrorists, other freedom fighters. Do you see the similarity or are you blind? The PM is part of the government and as we all knwo once someone becoems part of the ruling mafia, their polcies change. Musharaf is a mohajir, but he certianly has not done anything to benefit mohajirs. Once you get to the top you forget your people.
And who do you think likes to create tension betwen tribes? Who created split in MQM? Who flamed the Pushtun-Baluchi ethnic clash in balochistan? It certainly didn't happen by itself.
Reference of RF to my reply and mixin' Kashmir with Tribes, hain? Where the hell MQM popped up in this thread? Hello!
Brother Imdad,
I wouldn't like to go in depth discussion with you since you can't separate thread discussion as I've seen you mixin' apple with oranges. Btw, did Musharraf tell you he's a Mohajir? I have watched and read each and every speech of him, never mentioned Mohajir word but he did say he's a Soldier of Pakistan and a Pakistani, by raising a slogan Pakistan First. Never heard of him sayin' that he's Mohajir.
In the end, if you just start by goin' over the thread, you'll figured out from where we started off and where the discussion is now. You can do that when you figure out this:
Are you a blind or You are blind.
For the time being, EOD with you. :)
PT, good job, and nice assessment. Nicely rounded up with good articles.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Imdad Ali: *
They are fighting for their rights that the governemnt has denied them since 1947. I don't see how this makes them anything but freedom fighters. These people were massacred by Bhutto and no government ever kept its promises to them. It is no surprise that they are bitter.
Now please tell me how telling the facts make me anti Pakistani? And why do you think they are terrorists?
[/QUOTE]
Ok now that we know that your a supporter of seccession of Baluchistan from Pakistan, I can respoond to your questions. I agree that Baluchistan has been treated unfairly in the past, I agree that ZAB's brutal repression of Baluchi rebels was unnecessary. However the main difference between you and I (you being anti-Pakistani) is that I am for dialogue, autonomy and discussion within the Pakistani state. No one has denied the need for improvement in the intra-provincial dialogue and consensus. I have earlier said that most of the Baluch greivances are supported by facts. However I do not want Baluchis leaving Pakistan or opening up movements to secede. I would rather see economic and social development, break down of the feudalistc tribal system through the cooperation of moderate and pro-Pakistani Baluchi leaders and most importantly, the average person. Before there is to be a dialogue I believe all Pakistanis would like to know where these leaders stand, and not surprisingly I asked you the same question-- to gauge your commitment to Pakistan as a unified state. I believe that the leaders that resorted to violence in the 1960-70s (the ones I already mentioned) were terrorists because they resorted to violence before sitting down and talking to the government, discussing their issues. Again, their issues and concerns had merit, whereas their actions did not. Just like YOUR statements may have merits, but in my eyes YOU hold no connection to Pakistan, so WHY BOTHER discusing things with you?
Traitors are in every country, we as patriotic Pakistanis will work with all Sindhis, Baluchis, Punjabis, Pashtun or anyone else who is willing to accept Pakistan as their country.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Pakistani Tiger: *
I wouldn't like to go in depth discussion with you since you can't separate thread discussion as I've seen you mixin' apple with oranges. Btw, did Musharraf tell you he's a Mohajir? I have watched and read each and every speech of him, never mentioned Mohajir word but he did say he's a Soldier of Pakistan and a Pakistani, by raising a slogan **Pakistan First.* Never heard of him sayin' that he's Mohajir.
[/QUOTE]
Brother PT, I respect President Musharraf primarily because he is a patriotic Pakistani. He has meved Pakistan ahead in unifying the provinces throgh his policies. I think we learn a lot about Imdad when he said Musharaf is a mohajir, but he certianly has not done anything to benefit mohajirs. Once you get to the top you forget your people. **
Imdad's words prove that he is hell bent on dividing Pakistanis, what hell is "your people"? Your wrong Imdad, he's done more for **his people-- The Pakistani people, than you or any other watan faroosh could have done. When I see Musharraf I don't see a "Muhajir" I see a pure Pakistani. I think that he should certainly celeberate and remember his heritage, but Pakistan should always override anything else.
We want to see Pakistan developed, it's people happy and the leadership patriotic from Skardu to Makran, and I have my faith in average Pakistanis to lead us to that goal.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by RajputFury: *
Ok now that we know that your a supporter of seccession of Baluchistan from Pakistan
[/quote]
Where did you come up with this conclusion? If what you say is right then that would mean that most balochis support independence? I am just supporting their right to struggle against an uncaring and unfair govnt. Human rights have a universal apeal, and you cannot use the "Islam card" or "Pakistan card" to stop people from fighting for their cause. You can call them terrorists, animals, or whatever but they will continue to fight for what they believe in. Same thing is happening in Kashmir, Palestine, and others places in the world. Their are people who are part of the establishment who think of these peoples as sub human and terrorists, but it hasn't stopped their stuggle.
[quote]
I agree that Baluchistan has been treated unfairly in the past, I agree that ZAB's brutal repression of Baluchi rebels was unnecessary. However the main difference between you and I (you being anti-Pakistani) is that I am for dialogue, autonomy and discussion within the Pakistani state. No one has denied the need for improvement in the intra-provincial dialogue and consensus. I have earlier said that most of the Baluch greivances are supported by facts. However I do not want Baluchis leaving Pakistan or opening up movements to secede. I would rather see economic and social development, break down of the feudalistc tribal system through the cooperation of moderate and pro-Pakistani Baluchi leaders and most importantly, the average person. Before there is to be a dialogue I believe all Pakistanis would like to know where these leaders stand, and not surprisingly I asked you the same question-- to gauge your commitment to Pakistan as a unified state. I believe that the leaders that resorted to violence in the 1960-70s (the ones I already mentioned) were terrorists because they resorted to violence before sitting down and talking to the government, discussing their issues. Again, their issues and concerns had merit, whereas their actions did not. Just like YOUR statements may have merits, but in my eyes YOU hold no connection to Pakistan, so WHY BOTHER discusing things with you?
[/quote]
See that's the problem with you. Becuase I harbour a sentiment that the elite of Pakistan do not like, I suddenly have no connection to Pakistan. I agree with you about the dialogue between people and listening to the voices that usually get no attention in Pakistan. But the govnt is only paying lip service to these voices. You may have complete trust in the army and govnt, but I don't. I have experiance to go by and the history of Pakistan as my evidence. These people have never done what is good for Pakistan, and I don't see this changing. They do not listen to the voices that have been crying for last 55 years, so why should I give the govnt the benefit of the doubt? This is why people have to take matters in their hands to get their rights in Pakistan. The ruling elite only cares about maintaing its statis quo, nothing else.
Thsi idea of a unified state can onyl work when both parties want the same thing. Considering the actions of the govnt I am not so sure they really care about any united or strong Pakistan.
[quote]
Traitors are in every country, we as patriotic Pakistanis will work with all Sindhis, Baluchis, Punjabis, Pashtun or anyone else who is willing to accept Pakistan as their country.
[/QUOTE]
Everyone accepts Pakistan as their country, only the govnt does not accept everyone as equal citizens.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Pakistani Tiger: *
Btw, did Musharraf tell you he's a Mohajir? I have watched and read each and every speech of him, never mentioned Mohajir word but he did say he's a Soldier of Pakistan and a Pakistani, by raising a slogan **Pakistan First.* Never heard of him sayin' that he's Mohajir.
[/QUOTE]
Well he likes to call himself Urdu-speaking. And he can call himself whatever he likes, but it doesn't change the fact about his ancestory.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Imdad Ali: *
Well he likes to call himself Urdu-speaking. And he can call himself whatever he likes, but it doesn't change the fact about his ancestory.
[/QUOTE]
Thread is not about Musharraf and he never called himself Urdu-speakin'.
Whatever you might wanna call him doesn't effect him, anyway.
EOD
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Pakistani Tiger: *
Thread is not about Musharraf and he never called himself Urdu-speakin'.
[/QUOTE]
Oh he did, and I heard it on PTV.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Imdad Ali: *
Oh he did, and I heard it on PTV.
[/QUOTE]
You forgot to clean your ears that day.