Re: Free Judiciary and Media; Reality or Delusion?
One of the corp commanders should be assigned responsibility of judging the "judgements", and the crap judgements like re-instating the CJ or allowing NS back in country should be discarded. If corp-commander is not ready to take this job, Pir of London can be assigned for this.
Will you ever spare "our" leader!:o
Re: Free Judiciary and Media; Reality or Delusion?
No sou mota moti action on the attacks of lawyer groups on different people. but how can they, abrar ul Haq's lyrics are more important and worthy of Supreme Court time.
**aik-ject-ly
CJ is acting like a naee nawailee dulhan jo baat baat per "rooth" jatee hai liken srif "susraal" waloon sai, "maikey" waloon ke koi baat buree nahee lagtee :)
**
With so many cases in pending from murder to rape, from corruption to default, CJ find "contempt" of court more important and gave it a date of hearing more quickly than any other case and btw, Sher Afghan was not dis-obeying the order (which should be contempt of court) he is just criticizing the court. I wonder why CJ's advocates and supporters find it odd when army says that there should be no public criticizing of Army... I mean if you cant criticize court decisions, then everyone will have a reason to believe that you cant criticize them!
Re: Free Judiciary and Media; Reality or Delusion?
If the time period for the freedom of judiciary and media is post 9 march (as I gather from your post), then isn’t it asking a bit much? The question u pose can be asked from the government , especially Musharraf who came in holding out exactly the sort of promises that would get rid of exactly the sort of malice u mentioned in your post. 8 years. Progress? Today, the cement, oil, capital market, construction, automotive and sugar mafia r stronger than ever before. I am sure u have read up on some of the adventures of these groups.
Is the judiciary playing to the gallery? We don’t know. Trouble is, even if it is, that doesn’t help Musharraf’s case at all. What judiciary says, whether playing up or in all seriousness, has to be followed through. And if it says, the giver of all freedom, should go, then he must go. However, what is more important for me is that the judiciary gives honest decisions. And as long as it is doing that, I am fine with it.
I am sorry sir. May 12 was anything BUT moderate, unless u have a definition of moderate which is significantly different from my understanding. I won’t even go into what happened to CJ when he was house arrested because that particular “moderate mishandling” was accepted by the moderately enlightened one himself. Attack on Geo? AAj? All moderately handled?
How come the executive is absolved of fighting all crimes? What has Musharraf done in 8 years or not done that u want judiciary to do or undo in months? And why is Musharraf making deals with the biggest problem in society…the feudals, in shape of PPP?
As for CJ, his suo moto’s on Vani , karo kari, and manu bheel r there for everyone to see. No need repeating.
Re: Free Judiciary and Media; Reality or Delusion?
As for contempt of court:
People need to be a little more educated about the subject. The practise in Pakistani judiciary is that if the person who indulged in contempt of court apologizes unconditionally, the court accepts their apology and lets them go. That is what happened when Islamabad commissioner and deputy commissioner were let off when they apologized for mishandling CJ. Similarly Munir was let off after he tendered a written apology.
As for CJ being vindictive, the argument has no legs to stand on.
one: if he wanted to, he could haul the commissioner and deputy commissioner back to the court and send them off to jail. He did not.
two: someone filed a contempt petition against Sheikh Rasheed and Pervez Elahi for using bad lingo against the CJ during the reference days. CJ refused to hear the petition and threw it out.
if Sher Afgan apologizes, he'll go home without a scratch. So people, before going on a rant against the CJ, get ur facts straight.
Re: Free Judiciary and Media; Reality or Delusion?
remember the flak u.s. supreme court got after the 5-4 decision validating 2000 election in favour of bush? thankfully the u.s. supreme court judges are not as insecure as our judges otherwise half the u.s. media would be in jail for questioning the motives of u.s. judges. dont forget the 5-4 decision was split along party lines with republican appointed judges favouring bush.
also there is more dangerous aspect to the contempt of court rule. few months ago, geo caught on tape, a court official taking bribe. when geo showed that footage, geo management was hauled into court for.......you guessed it, contempt of court. essentially court seems to be saying that our judges possess divine powers which makes their decision beyond criticism. the most dangerous aspect of the whole thing is that judges in such cases are acting as prosecutors as well as judges which goes against the fundamental principle of justice. and when you consider that our supreme court judges are handing out idiotic decisions like banning blogspot, or hauling abrar-ul-haq to court or ruling against privatisation or interfering in hostage negotiations, the supreme court's use of contempt of court is scary. to think these insecure people have the power to control our lives is not a pleasant thought.
Re: Free Judiciary and Media; Reality or Delusion?
also there is more dangerous aspect to the contempt of court rule. few months ago, geo caught on tape, a court official taking bribe. when geo showed that footage, geo management was hauled into court for.......you guessed it, contempt of court. essentially court seems to be saying that our judges possess divine powers which makes their decision beyond criticism. the most dangerous aspect of the whole thing is that judges in such cases are acting as prosecutors as well as judges which goes against the fundamental principle of justice. and when you consider that our supreme court judges are handing out idiotic decisions like banning blogspot, or hauling abrar-ul-haq to court or ruling against privatisation or interfering in hostage negotiations, the supreme court's use of contempt of court is scary. to think these insecure people have the power to control our lives is not a pleasant thought.
Very well put.
Looks like it is the free judiciary that is the dictatorship - not the President that has been labeled by some as the dictator.
Re: Free Judiciary and Media; Reality or Delusion?
Very well put.
Looks like it is the free judiciary that is the dictatorship - not the President that has been labeled by some as the dictator.
Looks like you don't know much about different institutions in a government, judiciary is dismissing the cases it likes and acting on cases it likes... judiciary is not controlling ministeries, not controlling budget, not passing orders/plans, not deciding foreign policy etc... try to learn how a government works and where does judiciary fit in the whole system.
Re: Free Judiciary and Media; Reality or Delusion?
Well stated. :k: As we have seen the CJ’s supporters can get away with bullying, thuggery, violence and even threatening to burn the judges, but others merely voicing their opinions are hauled up in front of the court and humiliated.
Re: Free Judiciary and Media; Reality or Delusion?
is criticizing court verdict, decision, stance ..outside the court room contempt of court?
the whole roe vs wade dissidents shoulda been tried for conempt for decades then I suppose..
once the court passes a verdict, it becomes part of the public property and can be criticized. However, the criticism has to be in limits. Sher afgan did not criticise the judgment. He criticised the judges. In fact, he criticised the whole Supreme Court by saying that the SC has become a party to the politics of the country and that the judges should resign from their posts and set up justice party.
Does that behoove a federal minister?
Then again, when u have people like Arbab Ghulam saying that a woman's rule is "nahoosat" all cozy with the enlightened one, what more can one expect?
Re: Free Judiciary and Media; Reality or Delusion?
[quote="Captain1"]
judiciary is dismissing the cases it likes and acting on cases it likes... quote]
Nuff said :D
Re: Free Judiciary and Media; Reality or Delusion?
odd isn't it, those who are silent when by contrast Pakistans army randomly picks up people and keeps them in jails for 4 years get all offended when the courts start ruling against them..
Re: Free Judiciary and Media; Reality or Delusion?
he still has a right to free speech as long as he is not breaking any rules right? judges get criticized in US as well.
Re: Free Judiciary and Media; Reality or Delusion?
hope you are not still implying that it proves CJ as dictator :aq:
Re: Free Judiciary and Media; Reality or Delusion?
Not in Pakistan:
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2
****(d)**‘Judicial contempt’ means the scandalisation of a court and includes personalised criticism of a judge while holding office;
**10.**Criticism of judgments.-
No criticism of a judgment in a case which has been finally decided and is no longer pending shall constitute contempt, no matter how far reaching or outspoken in nature it may be, **if it is phrased in temperate language and does not impute improper motives to the judge.
**Contempt of Court Ordinance - X of 1998
the moron was issued contempt notice just as the current moron in question. So where does this picking one moron over another come in, I dont know.
Access to education is a fundamental right of every Pakistani and SC is the final body which ensures those fundamental rights. SO the suo moto on Bhangra lyrics was perfect jurisdiction of SC because the moron in question here has a tendency to use vulgar lyrics which in this case ended up with a girl having to abandon her studies because some morons at her school had decided to use the lyrics to harass her. So if a judge finds the lyrics moronic and decides to drag the moron who wrote those moronic lyrics to the court, it should not stop him from doing so just because some other moron carried out some moronic activities in the decade of the morons and no judge at that time took notice of it.
Re: Free Judiciary and Media; Reality or Delusion?
lower courts r useless. i think everyone knew that. in fact there is even a headline statement by Rana Bhagwandaas to the same effect.
Re: Free Judiciary and Media; Reality or Delusion?
A drop in the ocean may be just another drop. But a drop in the desert is life. All channels and their owners and their respective publications and their editors would also have some comparison with the past. Even if it isn’t a stark comparison its a comparison nonetheless. And its easy to deny Musharraf’s vision and efforts under his leadership for media freedom and expansion, but he is the father of free media in Pakistan. Of course he too shouldn’t be expected to correct the wrongs and wrong mind frames of 60yrs in 8.
But then again, why the sudden awakening post 9 March? What for if not for political (or commercial for media) advantage and personal salvage?
Surely the problems haven’t ended and with help from the same mafia and more that was never nipped they have multiplied, more often than not due to conspiracies and admittedly the fact that the crooks were never thrashed and instead some freed, some sent to exile and some pardoned, and some domesticated for political purpose; that is an issue, but that happened when a democratic process was essential as per global pressures and the govt was forced to team up with lesser crooks to keep at bay the bigger ones. It has all backfired, but wasn’t Musharraf’s selection up till 2002 better than his election in 2002 and its outcomes from then on?
Agreed too, however, the only problem is the judiciary is giving honest quickly-delivered-at-your-doorstep rapid decisions in cases of its choice, and the choice is mostly those cases pointing at or bringing down the government, its depts., ministries, officials and above all Musharraf. It’s almost like an FMCG MNC’s campaign for its products: “bring to us your contention with the govt/Musharraf and anything to do with either and receive a quick ruling. Guaranteed verdict in your favour as a promotional ad-on!”
Oct 99 to Sep 07; almost 8 years. How many 12 May’s at Musharraf’s direct orders took place? he sure went through a lot of moments in the past 8 yrs where he should have shown his dictatorial undemocratic wrath. Why wasn’t Nawaz hanged, why wasn’t Shahbaz put in Adiala jail when he showed up, why wasn’t Zardari killed in jail, why wasn’t Iftikhar confined in a 6x6 cell? Why wasn’t Javed Hashmi shot at dawn instead of Life? Why aren’t papers, channels, anchors and editors attacked/disappearing large scale? Why no Martial Law and dictatorial thrashing? And do we know for sure yet how directly or indirectly Musharraf ordered or did not order the killings. 4 political parties wrestled out in a strong-hold area/city of one party. All were photographed, stills and videos aired of objectionable actions all over the world and on the internet. But the blame given to MQM only and Musharraf held most responsible. What about the rest? a spade is a spade no matter how much we may love or hate a shovel…
Am against any such deals too.
What I want the judiciary to focus more on than Musharraf is petty lowly issues more concerned with the life and times of poor Pakistanis, cases which can gain no political mileage or concern non-political helpless and affected commoners. I want the SC to start solving them, the miseries of 60 yrs before taking on the govt and gaining political advantage and hype. Out of the tens of thousands of pending cases in the SC, HCs, LCs, why don’t i hear of rapists being hanged every day? robbers being sentenced, murderers being hanged, property snatchers being made to compensate, bribing officials being sentenced, land disputes, property disputes resolved, Police officials being thrashed for brutality, street crime being looked into, influential Prado driving elite stopped from breaking traffic laws, using tinted windows, hitting and running, and what not…
if the courts and SC first focuses on this and gains confidence of the people and starts contributing and improving life and safety of the people and their everyday lives, then I will be convinced more. Sorry if i’m not convinced of their sincerity if all justice they are concerned about is high profile hyped up political justice…
Re: Free Judiciary and Media; Reality or Delusion?
[quote=“Aalsi”]
Re: Free Judiciary and Media; Reality or Delusion?
and they should not be, it does no good if everyone 'knew' that and we live with it and accept it as how life is. That has been my point all along because this independence of judiciary is not doing good to anyone stuggling through common courts. More has to be done. maybe starting with a major audit of cases pending or completed. The time taken to solve things as simple as real estate disputes is long nuff, lets see what the avg throughput of judges is and how clean their verdicts are.
yeah I was hoping the whole lower judiciary would become clean overnight as well. Count me in the disappointed lot.