Re: For they are created from a bent rib
so, ravage: you are saying the hadeeth is fabricated?
Re: For they are created from a bent rib
same is true for your translation. The fact that the context of the translation suggests the creation of Adam not his soul is totally missed. Hence, your most strong argument is answered.
Re: For they are created from a bent rib
yes Anwaar Qureishi, it is fabricated in my belief.
Re: For they are created from a bent rib
thanks for pointing that out.
My first post in this thread was pointing to this anyway…
All of us have stated our point of view and I suggest that sadiyah should lock this thread now.
Re: For they are created from a bent rib
Anwaar, bear in mind, that its you who are going against the majority of the translators, who have either translated the verse as Soul or Essence. I can see right now, that you have a very scratchy grasp on the language, you shouldnt have the cahoney to make such tall claims about incorrect contexts the way you are doing right now.
rahi baat lock karnay ki now that we've established that I dont believe the hadees to be correct, einstein, the only reason we would be having this discussion is that the hadees is in question. that has been the context all along.
the discussion hasnt been directed towards establishing whether or not pcg or I believe in this hadees, but whether it is fabricated or not.
Re: For they are created from a bent rib
good… so don’t just restrict yourself to “you can either translate nafs as soul, or nature”… since a word for word translation of nafs allows for rendering it as ‘person’ as per your agreement with Yusuf Ali doing this in 6:98
Re: For they are created from a bent rib
yeah you know it ofcourse 
Re: For they are created from a bent rib
There was a program on views on news a while back - i had posted a thread on it.
I distinctly remember the main dude - he's really famous of an aalim - can't remember his name honestly - he was defining the different concepts of rooh, jism, etc.
One of the words was shahoor (consciousness, I believe). Another was "nafs" - from what I remember, his descriptions of these two words were that they are NOT souls.
Essence does not have to be soul. Your soul may/may not be made of flesh and atoms. But you essence - your nature - is.
So in a way, yes, we're talking about the body of Adam being created in that ayah. Perhaps, perhaps not. But it depends on what you take "nature" to mean. I'm thinking God is talking about nature as in what your essence is - and your essence, frankly is flesh, bones, blood, etc - you're a pack of lving and breathing cells.
Now the translations you people have posted up have 2 distinct messages - some of them say that hawaa (or whoever the first female was, since the name is not given in the Quran) was made of the same essence/nature (nafs). Cells or molecules, superstrings, whatever the actual biological basis of this nature is (remember, Arabs in the 6th/7th century would not have known basic biology that we know today and God can't ruin it for mankind by giving us the equations to solve and a drawing representation of what nafs looks like biologically - so we can only speculate).
The other set of translations say that the first lady was made from Adam's nature.
Regardless of how you translate nafs, there are still two distinct meanings here.
Re: For they are created from a bent rib
meray bhai, you dont get it. the argument about Nafs has been about whether or not in a word for word translilteration, Nafs would be translated as soul.
In a translation, where the translation would be subject to interpretation by the translator, nafs can be used for person. However, in each of the translations quoted so far, EXCEPT for one lesser known work, the creation of Havva has either been from the same soul, or of the same nature as Adam.
it is incredibly presumptuous to suggest thereafter, with the knowledge of Arabic I see in you guys, that you know better than they do.
Re: For they are created from a bent rib
ravage, I thought you’re a non-Sunni Muslim. If such is the case, then I doubt that you would deem Bukhari, Muslim, et al to be authentic?
ps. my intention is not to offend you, but I think Sunnis and non-Sunnis do not believe in each others’ hadith books and their respective sources.
Re: For they are created from a bent rib
not really, our approach towards sunni ahadith tends to be that we accept them if they do not conflict with Quran our our own sahih ahadith. so while we believe a lot of bukhari to be fabricated, most of the shia sunni arguments tend to be with the use of sahih sunni references for example.
the shia pov on this issue, by the way, is also divided. there is a weak hadees in Allama Majlisi's book that says something along the lines of what this hadees is saying, but there is a sahih hadees saying something along the lines of Allah is above creating Havva from the rib of man (i dont remember the exact words).
Re: For they are created from a bent rib
15:28 Behold! thy Lord said to the angels: "I am about to create man, from sounding clay from mud moulded into shape;
15:29 “When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him.”
Re: For they are created from a bent rib
ravage, why don't you share some ahadith (on this topic) from Shia Islam? It'd be interesting to learn what Shia Muslims believe in (on this topic).
In addition, I thought Shias don't quite regard many sahaba as well as Aisha (RA), if such is the case, then wouldn't many Sahih ahadith be ignored by the Shia Muslims as they may be of the view that many sahaba and Aisha (RA) may not be trustworthy?
Re: For they are created from a bent rib
AQ what is your point? dont shirk away from the discussion simply by being inconclusive.
sadiyah, the most relevant Shia perspective on this was already posted by PCG at the beginning of the thread. I'll get home tonight and see if I can find direct references from our books on this issue, i got these two references from a shia bbs system that i cant directly quote here.
regarding your second point, the hadees e kissa, one of the most widely read ahadith in shia Islam is sourced, amongst others, to bibi Ayesha. regardless of what goes on amongst majalis, much of which might not be correct in the shia school of thought, we have a lot of ahadees quoted from sahaba, including bibi ayesha.
to be honest, the usual thought process of the typical shia (including me) is to accept sunni ahadith that agree with a shia interpretation of the religion, and reject ones that conflict with it, as untrustworthy. I guess people better versed in history follow a more rigorous process, i honestly dont.
Re: For they are created from a bent rib
i’ll try to look them up again
Re: For they are created from a bent rib
Dr. Israr Ahmed translated NafsiyuN wahidaah in urdu as aik jaan and then notice how he translated the later part…
I am not able to just take that part out so please, take some time (43:37 minutes) to listen to this:
Surah Aal-e-Imran ayah 181 - Surah An Nissa: ayah 14
Re: For they are created from a bent rib
Ravage only knows Arabic 
Re: For they are created from a bent rib
gupguppy, you’re right, i was misusing “transliteration”, it was a new word for me 
nevertheless, im sure you understand what we’re talking about. Anwaar wished to translate word for word the quranic verse, which he was doing incorrectly.
and yeah right, the competance of the translators is very unlikely to be less than the quality we have here. the reason “from the same soul” is unlikely to mean Adam (if you translate nafs as soul and not person) is that you are extrapolating beyond the text of the verse. why didnt the pronoun just change from minhaa to minhu then?
Re: For they are created from a bent rib
^ sorry, posting again… i deleted the earlier one - so you’ve replied even before i’ve posted 
please learn the meaning of the word ‘transliteration’. NO ONE has been talking about how nafs should be correctly transliterated. For your benefit, transliteration means: ‘To represent (letters or words) in the corresponding characters of another alphabet.’
example:
لاَ رَيْبَ فِيهِ
is transliterated in English as:
la rayba fihi
understood?
4 out of the 6 translators disagree with “of the same nature” so since you are keeping score we can dismiss that rendition
“from the same soul” can still mean “from Adam”… according to you, who or what is meant by the term “nafs-sin wahidatin” in 4:1
also, the truth is not how many translators sided with one or other translation… knowing what the verse ‘says’ isn’t the same as knowing what the verse ‘means’… translators might have some degree of competence in the former, but commentators would have a distinct edge in both, particularly the latter
Re: For they are created from a bent rib
erm, so part of this post i've already replied to. im not sure what u've added this time, at any rate, lemme know if anythings unclear in my response.