Fir'awn (Pharaoh) Smarter than Ash'aris/Maturidees?

your lack of historical knowledge is amazing. Can you please tell us when did Mu’tazilite started with their heresy? They were the first one to use philsophy and most of the Salaf warned against the iluml kalam, even your shaykh haddad admits it. If the use of philsophy was neccessary why didn’t the Salaf do so?

yeh, according to you, even the Salaf were deivated because they took the ayaat of the Sifaat upon their dahir meaning. Maybe you should try reading an earlier tafsir: Tafsir by 'Abdullah ibn 'Abass and Imam ibn Jarir at-Tabari (May Allah be pleased with them)

yeh sure

refer to this post

subhaanAllah, you just proved my point and refuted your deviant belief that Allah is not over His throne; allhamdulillah, Imam abou Hanifa clarifies the position of the Ahle Sunnah when he said “Allah is established on the throne without His need (haja) nor settlement (istiqrar) upon it”; whereas you say He is everywhere and the Istawa means He conquered (istalwa) the throne

look, how mansur maturidi distorted the clear words of Imam abou Hanifa (rahimahullah) when he clearly refuted your deviant belief.

do you realize that this again refutes you and proves our point? He said that Istawa is not unkown but kayf is and asking about kayf is an innovation; this is exactly what we say!

doesn’t help you a bit because we agree on what Imam said. mutashabih ayaat doesn’t mean that no one unserstands their meaning.

Re: Fir'awn (Pharaoh) Smarter than Ash'aris/Maturidees?

Sallam, Fortunately enough i got to see 2 tafasir

1) Ibn Jarir al-Tabari said in his Tafsir:

"Allah made himself exalted over the heaven with the exaltation of sovereignty and power, not that of displacement and movement."

Tafsir al-Tabari 1:192.

2) Imam Fakhr al-Din Razi in his al-Tafsir says,

"Since it is affirmed by this verse that "All those in the heavens and the earth must come to Allah as His slave," and since it is obligatory that Allah is clear of being a slave, He is therefore clear of being in a place or direction, or on the Throne or the Chair."

Tafsir Al-Kabir 19:93

As for the Salaf, they didnt need philosophy as they fought against sects such as the qadariya and the Raifidhi, whom based there arguments upon Quran and Hadith But later when teh Jahmiya and Mutazila came, who used philosophy we had to refute them with philsophy as they didnt accept any literal text. Honestly have you studied any books of aqidah or are you like the common man who has been influenced by just reading a book of Imam Ibn taymiyyah or Imam Ibn jawzi. Here is a book to read, Jaanibul Ilaahi fi Fikr Imam Ghazzali, I am sure that will remove all of your doubts

^you didn't bring any statements from the Qur'aan or Sahih Sunnah or the Salaf to disapprove me. Funny thing is that the statements of the four Imams you posted only disapproved you and yet you want to stick to your deviant belief when the evidence is crystal clear. It is even more funny that Imam Qurtubi (rahimahullah) affirms that you guys are wrong; read this with open heart:***“The most correct of these opinions, although I do not adopt it or choose it for myself!, is the opinion which numerous Quranic versus and narrations agreed on reporting: Allah SWT is over His throne, as He mentioned in His book, and His Prophet’s sayings, without a howness, He is separate from His creation. This is the opinion of the righteous predecessors as reported by the trustworthy.” (Aqaweel al-Thiqaat 1/132).***
I'll respond to your quotes later

[quote]
Tafsir al-Tabari 1:192
[/quote]
this seems a typo; can you please confirm the surah and the ayaat, thanks?

As-Salamu 'Alaykum

Bismillah Ar-Rahmaan Ar-Raheem

First, let's go over the explicit statements of Imaam ibn Jarir (rahimahullah) affirming Allah's Istawa as rising over: 1 - 57:4
وَهُوَ مَعَكُمْ أيْنَما كُنْتُمْ } يقول: وهو شاهد لكم أيها الناس أينما كنتم يعلمكم، ويعلم أعمالكم، ومتقلبكم ومثواكم، وهو على عرشه فوق سمواته السبع

[Allah's saying] "And He is with you (by His Knowledge) wheresoever you may be" He says: and He is a witness for you O people wherever you are He knows you, and knows your actions, and your place of return and abode, and He is over His throne above seven Heavens.

2 - 58:7
وعنى بقوله { هُو رَابِعُهُمْ } بمعنى أنه مشاهدهم بعلمه، وهو على عرشه، كما

and His saying "but He is their fourth" means that He is witnessing (seeing) and has knowledge of what they [the creation] do, whilst being above the throne. [roughly translated]

4 - 20:5
وقوله: { الرَّحْمَنُ عَلـى العَرْشِ اسْتَوَى } يقول تعالـى ذكره: الرحمن علـى عرشه ارتفع وعلا

and [His] saying "The Rahmaan rose over (Istawa) the throne": [meaning] the Almighty says that the Rahmaan rose ('ala) and ascended (irtafa'a) over His throne [roughly translated]

5 - 40:36-37
وقوله: ( وَإِنِّي لأظُنُّهُ كَاذِبًا ) يقول: وإني لأظنّ موسى كاذبا فيما يقول ويدّعي من أن له في السماء ربا أرسله إلينا

and [His] saying "But verily, I (Fir'aun) think him to be a liar" meaning: That perhaps I (Fir'aun) may reach the gates of heavens, the gates that would allow me to see the God of Moses; for I believe Moses to be a liar with respect to what he says and claims; that he has a Lord in the heavens who sent him [roughly translated] So, here we've explicit statements from the Imaam affirming Allah's rising over His throne and Him being above the seven heavens over His throne.

Now, let's go over what the brother quoted

btw it is the tafsir of ayat 2:29; I don't know brother where you got the translation from but is has been grossly mistranslated [some parts of it that i've read somewhere else] and taken out of context. Actually, in this passage Imaam ibn Jarir (rahimahullah) once again refuted the deviant beliefs; here's the Arabic passage:وأولى المعافي بقول الله جل ثناؤه : { ثم استوى إلى السماء فسواهن } علا عليهن وارتفع فدبرهن بقدرته وخلقهن سبع سموات . والعجب ممن أنكر المعنى المفهوم من كلام العرب في تأويل قول الله : { ثم استوى إلى السماء } الذي هو بمعنى العلو والارتفاع هربا عند نفسه من أن يلزمه بزعمه إذا تأوله بمعناه المفهم كذلك أن يكون إنما علا وارتفع بعد أن كان تحتها , إلى أن تأوله بالمجهول من تأويله المستنكر , ثم لم ينج مما هرب منه . فيقال له : زعمت أن تأويل قوله : { استوى } أقبل , أفكان مدبرا عن السماء فأقبل إليها ؟ فإن زعم أن ذلك ليس بإقبال فعل ولكنه إقبال تدبير , قيل له : فكذلك فقل : علا عليها علو ملك وسلطان لا علو انتقال وزوال . ثم لن يقول في شيء من ذلك قولا إلا ألزم في الآخر مثله , ولولا أنا كرهنا إطالة الكتاب بما ليس من جنسه لأنبأنا عن فساد قول كل قائل قال في ذلك قولا لقول أهل الحق فيه مخالفا , وفيما بينا منه ما يشرف بذي الفهم على ما فيه له الكفاية إنه شاء الله تعالى

The most befitting/appropriate/suitable/preferred of all the (aforementioned) meanings with respect to Allah's saying: "He then rose to the heavens and then He made them", meaning He rose ('ala) and ascended (irtafa'a) over them...and it is strange that who denied the commonly understood meaning of the lanaguge of the Arab do Taw'il of Allah's saying ''He then rose to the heavens" ...

I'll post the rest of the translation later
First, in this passage, Imaam ibn Jarir (rahimahullah) was refuting the believes of some of the people who did taw'il to mean 'Allah's rose over' to turning to or facing. So, his saying "not that of displacement and movement", is refuting those who state that rising to the heavens necessitates movement, because as he argues, iqbal – to turn to – also necessitates movement. Otherwise, he has already made his position crystal clear, that the most appropriate of all interpretations is to say that Allah Ta'ala literally rose and ascended to the heavens! Secondly, Imaam ibn Jarir (rahimahullah) is the last person that Ash'aris want to quote because his statements are explicit affirming the daahir (apparent/literal) meaning of Allah's Sifaat and I've quoted few of them above.

Wallahu A'lam