... humans WANT to believe that they will live forever after death and be rewarded for good deeds.
humans donot want to accept permanent death and we will make up any belief to help us get over that fear.
Peace again bella88
This is an interesting theory that many people throw around - often without a license ... We can address this matter right now ...
Ok if it follows that religious people are afraid of permanent death as they make up the belief of the afterlife - it would be true to say that people who do not have faith in the afterlife are braver (!!!) ... So in the case of Islam where we are warned about doing bad then how does that fit with this notion? It is not only the promise of heaven we believe in ... we also believe in as well as people of many other faiths the afterlife being a consequence of our lives here ... if we were good then we get good if we were bad we get bad and so on ... this no longer fits the - afraid of death hence conjure afterlife mantra ...
Also, in Islam we do have a belief that some things will face permanent death ... to many things they will simply cease to exist and there will be no judgement - but for us - no - that is going to be a real hard time ... In the Qur'an there is a verse that goes like this:
Surah 78:40
**Indeed, We have warned you of a near punishment on the Day when a man will observe what his hands have put forth and the disbeliever will say, "Oh, I wish that I were dust!"**
We actually are quite concerned about going to the afterlife ... and also our concept of simply ceasing to exist (like dust) is more appealing than having to face that Day ...
Not just one or 2 verses, the entire quran is repetitive. yes your opinion is a typical opinion of a believer which is biased and subjective. And very frankly, this is not the forum to discuss why quran is false as that comes in category of insult to religion. im not here to prove why I feel the way I do regarding islam. this thread wasn't really about this topic anyway, dont know why you felt the need to bring quran as truth here. but when you claim quran as the truth, just know there are plenty of critics. if you want to learn why some people may not consider Quran as not the word of God, just google. I donot wish to get banned for serious offensive blasphemy. some users have already complained about me for 'anti-islam' propaganda maker. so no, i cannot go into detail on this forum. please feel free to check out other forums of ex-muslims where you can see every criticism and breakdown of verse to verse errors and contradiction.
My purpose is to show you that your criticisms about us actually are in your own selves ... cleanse them first ... And be precise when discussing matters with us ... please. Or else your contentions by not being precise cannot be effectively answered and hence it demonstrates that you are not looking for an answer ... you just want to voice an opinion. Philosophy from the broader sense is being applied here by me - in an attempt to come to a common understanding by being truthful, unbiased ... I hope there is more to sharpness and wit - I hope that beneathe that there is a human being who wants to connect with the truth, and I talk of myself more than others ...
This is an interesting theory that many people throw around - often without a license ... We can address this matter right now ...
Ok if it follows that religious people are afraid of permanent death as they make up the belief of the afterlife - it would be true to say that people who do not have faith in the afterlife are braver ... So in the case of Islam where we are warned about doing bad then how does that fit with this notion? It is not only the promise of heaven we believe in ... we also believe in as well as people of many other faiths the afterlife being a consequence of our lives here ... if we were good then we get good if we were bad we get bad and so on ... this no longer fits the - afraid of death hence conjure afterlife mantra ...
Also, in Islam we do have a consequence of permanent death ... to many things they will simply cease to exist and there will be no judgement - that is going to be a real hard time ... In the Qur'an there is a verse that goes like this:
Surah 78:40
Indeed, We have warned you of a near punishment on the Day when a man will observe what his hands have put forth and the disbeliever will say, "Oh, I wish that I were dust!"
We actually are quite concerned about going to the afterlife ... and also our concept of simply ceasing to exist is more appealing than having to face that Day ...
humans have always feared death and cannot accept becoming 'nothing'. even though i dont believe in any religion, it still hard for me to understand the concept of being dead forever. all animals and living things struggle to live and dont wish to die. religion is the way to become immortal. again, you can disagree or agree, doesn't matter. this is just my opinion.
this is why different parts of the world came up with their very own religion (well before islam or any Abrahimic faith was known).
even if you think that ceasing to exist sounds better than Hellfire, you still have a hope of living forever in complete happiness if you do good deeds. so if you believe in Islam, you can live forever in a very happy place. once again, islam is not the only religion in the world and is relatively new to many other older faith. people have been following all kinds of religion from the time of very early humans to basically explain the purpose of life and why things happen the way they do.
My purpose is to show you that your criticisms about us actually are in your own selves ... cleanse them first ... And be precise when discussing matters with us ... please. Or else your contentions by not being precise cannot be effectively answered and hence it demonstrates that you are not looking for an answer ... you just want to voice an opinion. Philosophy from the broader sense is being applied here by me - in an attempt to come to a common understanding by being truthful, unbiased ... I hope there is more to sharpness and wit - I hope that beneathe that there is a human being who wants to connect with the truth, and I talk of myself more than others ...
this is where your biased views are so obvious. when anyone criticizes your faith, they need to 'cleanse' themselves first. yet it's completely right to criticize other faith because they are all false.
humans have always feared death and cannot accept becoming 'nothing'. even though i dont believe in any religion, it still hard for me to understand the concept of being dead forever. all animals and living things struggle to live and dont wish to die. religion is the way to become immortal. again, you can disagree or agree, doesn't matter. this is just my opinion.
this is why different parts of the world came up with their very own religion (well before islam or any Abrahimic faith was known).
even if you think that ceasing to exist sounds better than Hellfire, you still have a hope of living forever in complete happiness if you do good deeds. so if you believe in Islam, you can live forever in a very happy place. once again, islam is not the only religion in the world and is relatively new to many other older faith. people have been following all kinds of religion from the time of very early humans to basically explain the purpose of life and why things happen the way they do.
Peace bella88
As I said earlier Muslims do have a concept that involves being dead forever ... In some cases that is more appealing than having to face the trials of the afterlife ... As a person who is thinking the way you are ... Instead of concluding that it is because of fear ... You could in fact conclude that it is a voice calling you towards the design function ... You desire life because there is life after this one ... Such an argument can be induced.
this is where your biased views are so obvious. when anyone criticizes your faith, they need to 'cleanse' themselves first. yet it's completely right to criticize other faith because they are all false.
Here by cleanse I was referring to biases that you have demonstrated, without any recourse to religion from me, without any blame ... I just chose the words cleanse ... It could be purge ... All the while you accuse me of bias ... Yet on many instances I have defended religion per se ... Yes, part of me wants to show the superiority of Islam ... Not as a way to dominate and insult, but to show compassion and invite ...
But when conversing issues ... One would expect the opposite person to be sincere and at least follow through an argument.
humans have always feared death and cannot accept becoming 'nothing'. even though i dont believe in any religion, it still hard for me to understand the concept of being dead forever. all animals and living things struggle to live and dont wish to die. religion is the way to become immortal. again, you can disagree or agree, doesn't matter. this is just my opinion.
*this is why different parts of the world came up with their very own religion (well before islam or any Abrahimic faith was known). *
even if you think that ceasing to exist sounds better than Hellfire, you still have a hope of living forever in complete happiness if you do good deeds. so if you believe in Islam, you can live forever in a very happy place. once again, islam is not the only religion in the world and is relatively new to many other older faith. people have been following all kinds of religion from the time of very early humans to basically explain the purpose of life and why things happen the way they do.
The first Prophet of Abrahamic religions was Adam (a.s). Would you let me know which religion existed before Adam (a.s)?
I'm leaving all emotion here ... This is pure academic analysis ... The extent of what I said is easy to understand ... My first claim was about the Qur'an not being changed ... From evidence we can see this is the case ... Look to the oldest Qur'an documented ... Othmani ... Also, with so many people who have memorised the Book in each era it is impossible to get it wrong ... The Book of Mormon pails in comparison ...
But you see I like your statement I have put it in bold it is truly the sort of question a chemistry or physics experiment should be begun with ... A hypothesis ... A prediction of what is to come ... Any good scientific idea should be able to generate that ... Did you say evolution was science? I think I said it was more like a religion ... You see evolution cannot be used in the way you want me to defend my religion ... You can't tell me what will be the next creature to evolve, from where and from which mechanism ... And when!
Besides let's get to the meat of the question you raised ... It is quite humorous ... You asked me it as if I am the one bringing the message and you want me to call up the miracle ... The miracle of predicting the future accurately ... Regarding eclipses I will just use a planetarium or almanac to give you the dates that have been calculated the true task is to make a prediction without the natural world's clock helping us ... My religion does not tell me that it can give me what science gives me... But it tells me how to behave ... It tells me how we think .... And what we ought to do to get salvation. science can't tell you how to get salvation ... But that is why I don't ask you that question ... Because I am honest enough to admit that they are unsuitable for our discussion at hand.
Both of your first assertions are opinions, and are disputed with significant evidence.
Your second assertion is comical. But, I'll, again, assume you're serious because you seem to be putting it forth. Let me just say that I hope you don't go to a doctor that diagnoses you prior to seeing you and understanding what your symptoms.
Now we get to the fact of the matter. Your religion, like all others, is a set of beliefs. It tells you how to behave. That's fine and well. The issue I have is: People of faith injecting their religion in place of science.
As I said earlier Muslims do have a concept that involves being dead forever ... In some cases that is more appealing than having to face the trials of the afterlife ... As a person who is thinking the way you are ... Instead of concluding that it is because of fear ... You could in fact conclude that it is a voice calling you towards the design function ... You desire life because there is life after this one ... Such an argument can be induced.
peace psyah,
i dont even understand what you're trying to say now. my point was people made up religion to answer their question and to have an afterlife. even if its more appealing to not have an afterlife if you're a sinner, you do have a choice to have a very happy afterlife if you do good. also God forgives as well, and he can forgive anything other than shirk so every muslim has this hope that many of their sins will be forgiven as God loves you 70 times more than your own mother. thats the motivation in believing in religion
The first Prophet of Abrahamic religions was Adam (a.s). Would you let me know which religion existed before Adam (a.s)?
just because Quran states it, it doesn't become a fact. and secondly, I donot believe in the creation of first man and woman as being sent down from heaven for eating an apple.
and the earliest humans did not have the same belief as what we do now. tribes in native america 20,000 years ago had completely different religion. ancient african tribes had different religion. native aboriginal australian had different religion. NONE of these people followed any kind of abrahmic faith.
And yes I know, as per Islam, a messenger has been sent to every civilization but I seriously doubt that. we have not seen any evidence of abrahimc faith in many parts of the world.
Now we get to the fact of the matter. Your religion, like all others, is a set of beliefs. It tells you how to behave. That's fine and well. The issue I have is: People of faith injecting their religion in place of science.
Peace kprasad
You see I have never injected my faith in place of science ... I believe myself to be a scientist which is why I feel insulted to call evolution a science ... I am also a man of faith and
I see the framework of evolution to be like a faith ... If you are true to the above statement then you should be able to accept that a person can be both a scientist and a denier of evolution ... Here I have not injected my religion ... Rather I am saying that evolution is given under the guise of science ... And I am trying to give a wake up call to that fact.
You believe there is sufficient proof against my stance on spurious claims .... yet you ignore solid arguments that stand against evolution ... This indicates to me an irrational bias away from Islam or religious faith in general ... It is not only important to be critical to accept things, but it is also important to be self-critical about not accepting things that fit also.
You see I have never injected my faith in place of science ... I believe myself to be a scientist which is why I feel insulted to call evolution a science ... I am also a man of faith and
I see the framework of evolution to be like a faith ... If you are true to the above statement then you should be able to accept that a person can be both a scientist and a denier of evolution ... Here I have not injected my religion ... Rather I am saying that evolution is given under the guise of science ... And I am trying to give a wake up call to that fact.
You can believe yourself to be whatever you want and you can believe your religion to be whatever you want. I have no quarrel with that. I support your right to do so, and I would defend it absolutely and without reservation.
You, theists and deists in opposition of evolutionary biology, have no counter theory. Your only opposition is based on your religion. Nothing else. Science, evolutionary biology, works on evidence and data, something religion does not have, hence you need faith in religion not in science.
I'll stipulate, you can be religious and still be a scientist. However, this is negated when your religion clouds your science.
Trust me as a scientist it really bothers me that I can’t find or have not found a case of speciation taking place in the wild …yes, I have heard of hybridisation … But that works in the wrong direction … I reluctantly speak with and still use evolutionary terms … It is a theory but not a fact of life … The sudden explosions of different life forms in the fossil record and here in our lifetime suggest similar animals just compete for the same food and some come out successful … Like the grey and red squirrels in the UK … Looking at the fossil record we might conclude that grey squirrels evolved from the red … We know however the greys were introduced to compete with the red … And as an accident of nature the red were killed off …
I don’t have the answer to where the primordial lion came from or the primordial elephant … And in each case I would expect a whole community to appear together … In order for the genus to procreate successfully … It is a real puzzle … Perhaps one day we will find real evidence for evolution … Until then my questions are too hard for the evolutionists to answer and as a response I cannot accept evolution theory … Not as truth … But as a belief thus far … Yes.
I’ll explain what evolution theory does have that lends its support from the scientific angle … The entropy required to create or spontaneously make appear is too low … It is easier for shifts and changes to happen from an energy conservation point of view … From this angle it does indeed seem that the most feasible explanation of life form is to have come from other life forms … And that to me is the only convincing argument for evolution …
Although the theory does push the idea of a lowering of entropy … The idea of creation is even lower than that which creates a bigger problem.
Is that religion clouding my science or giving it more clarity? I think you know the real answer to that.
Having said that if such is eminent from a dimension or phase of existence that we cannot as yet fathom then that may explain it too. Entropy increases and it may only sometimes appear to decrease because we are not looking at the whole system.
just because Quran states it, it doesn't become a fact. and secondly, I donot believe in the creation of first man and woman as being sent down from heaven for eating an apple.
You was implying as if abrahmic religions are new but Quran does not claim that. If you dont believe that its another story. similarly i dont find every evidance of evolution concrete enough.
[QUOTE]
and the earliest humans did not have the same belief as what we do now. tribes in native america 20,000 years ago had completely different religion. ancient african tribes had different religion. native aboriginal australian had different religion. NONE of these people followed any kind of abrahmic faith.
And yes I know, as per Islam, a messenger has been sent to every civilization but I seriously doubt that. we have not seen any evidence of abrahimc faith in many parts of the world.
[/QUOTE]
basic message of all religions sent to earth was worship God, details of revelations were different. While the revelations updated, followers modified the religions causing the need for new religions to be sent to earth.
well you could doubt that but you dont have concrete evidence against the claim of Quran.
If you haven’t found the evidence for speciation, then you’re not looking hard enough, and I suspect it’s willful. I would even dare to say, the case for speciation. Moreover, the biggest case, and evidence, for speciation is within our own DNA. It’s the best map we have of how we’re all interconnected.
As for the grey and red squirrel, we don’t need conjecture. We know what happened. We have evidence. We have corroboration. We have lots of data. Even if we just looked at the fossil record we’d know it was introduced. This is how we know camels couldn’t possibly have been around in the days of the Abrahamic patriarchs: Domesticated Camels Came to Israel in 930 B.C., Centuries Later Than Bible Says
Again, it doesn’t matter whether you accept them or not. It doesn’t matter if you think evolutionary biology is voodoo or magic. That’s you’re personal belief, though wrong it may be. Your ‘hard questions’ have not only been answered, but the answers are becoming clear. Every bit of new therapies and new medicines are built on our fundamental understanding of evolution. The fact evolution occurred, isn’t even debated in science. The only opposition to evolution is religion. Nothing else. Again, I challenge you to put for a counter theory!
As for your entropy…comment…I’ll leave you with this: We have this gigantic energy source a little more than 8 light minutes away from our home…
But all religion, especially ancient ones which are no longer even followed after European invasion were not even about worshiping God, and many were completely Godless. some were polytheist, while some were Animistic. Animism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia different tribes had their own belief and their own ways of worship which we will find very strange. Some people worshiped animal spirits while some considered their ancestor spirits as holy.
this is your theory or Islamic theory that followers modified religion, but thats simply not the case. I have yet to see evidence of this claim that God sent prophet/messenger to every part of the world, especially to N.and S America, Australia, and ancient polynesian tribes living for thousands of years with completely different religion.
If you haven't found the evidence for speciation, then you're not looking hard enough, and I suspect it's willful. I would even dare to say, the case for speciation. Moreover, the biggest case, and evidence, for speciation is within our own DNA. It's the best map we have of how we're all interconnected.
As for the grey and red squirrel, we don't need conjecture. We know what happened. We have evidence. We have corroboration. We have lots of data. Even if we just looked at the fossil record we'd know it was introduced. This is how we know camels couldn't possibly have been around in the days of the Abrahamic patriarchs: Domesticated Camels Came to Israel in 930 B.C., Centuries Later Than Bible Says
Again, it doesn't matter whether you accept them or not. It doesn't matter if you think evolutionary biology is voodoo or magic. That's you're personal belief, though wrong it may be. Your 'hard questions' have not only been answered, but the answers are becoming clear. Every bit of new therapies and new medicines are built on our fundamental understanding of evolution. The fact evolution occurred, isn't even debated in science. The only opposition to evolution is religion. Nothing else. Again, I challenge you to put for a counter theory!
As for your entropy...comment...I'll leave you with this: We have this gigantic energy source a little more than 8 light minutes away from our home...
Peace kprasad
When I talk about speciation evidence ... I mean to observe the act ... The fact that genes of living creatures is similar also just indicates that we all were Created by the same Entity with a similar life signature ... It does not necessitate or isolate the cause to be evolution ... Because again you are making general statements without going into detail ... Please avoid statements like "hard questions" have been answered ... They have not been answered ... if they have been answered then not with science ... Merely with faith like statements ... Such as evolution ... I have only accepted the plausible nature of the theory ... as a theory and not as fact, and I was always in that position ... The moment I start to take evolution as fact ... It becomes a faith because the evidence is simply not there ... i.e. The measurement is not there, the observation. A counter theory may be that groups of creatures just appear in the wilderness ... Another theory could be that a whole community of animals of one type are converted over night into another species together. But you see not having a detailed counter theory does not make the original theory right ... When they formed the geocentric theory of the universe and there was no better theory at the time it didn't make the geocentric theory right ...
As for camels that is interesting trivia ... I'll read it and comment below:
Although I do not believe the Bible to be an unadulterated text ... In it's defence the article in my opinion is shoddy ...
1) to analyse one bit of an archeological area for its camel remains can only prove when those particular camels came ... It cannot disprove when other camels did not come and especially not in other areas.
2) there is no indication in the Bible that domesticated camels were introduced en masse in the area ... That is an assumption and a wrong one.
3) the article does not say and cannot reveal when camels were first domesticated everywhere in the world ... For sure camels were used by caravans and nomads for centuries and Abraham (AS) was nomadic ... So people like him could have walked their camels over many miles to that area.
I don't understand why you can accept articles like this so easily yet deny the existence of God ...
Here is an alternative theory I just made up ... please analyse it and dismantle it ...
· Genetic drift and natural selection is the cause for changes of an organism within its own genetic family. Speciation does not occur.
· The classification of living organisms is essential in the determination of which groups of animals could be part of the same primordial template.
· This theory postulates that all existent animals have had a primordial template.
· The way to determine which animals are part of the same primordial template is indicated in the ability of their sex cells forming a zygote together (successful cross-breeding)
· Animals that may hence appear to be similar, but do not bear any genetic compatibility are really only apparently similar as an accident of nature
· Primordial templates appear miraculously throughout time as demonstrated by the fossil record, when new creatures appear they will create an imbalance and compete with existing animals and hence result in certain animal classes being driven to extinction.
If they were not worshipping God, they were not following any religoin. definition of religion is incomplete without God.
Logically, monotheism preceded polytheism and polytheism was derived from monotheism.
Modification was a must factor and it was as crucial as followers could make polytheism out of monotheism.