Re: EVOLUTION VS RELIGION
Scientific facts change with time :) new discoveries....new facts :@:
Re: EVOLUTION VS RELIGION
But it is not an explanation,rather absurd,Science surely gives answers :)
Definition of Fact: A truth of one possible world (dimension).....
Re: EVOLUTION VS RELIGION
Ofcourse we accept science.It explains a lot.But within science itself there r conflicts too.Differences.New discoveries.
Re: EVOLUTION VS RELIGION
I've taken part in the discussion regarding evolution ... now let's look at the scientific basis for belief in God.
Point #1 - There are four windows of knowledge to humanity -
a) Things we know that we know
b) Things we know that we don't know
c) Things we don't know that we know
d) Things we don't know that we don't know
a) This is the knowledge we use consciously
b) We'll come back to this group
c) This is the knowledge we use without knowing how it came such as the ability to create sentences and language
d) There are things that because we have neither seen them nor any sign of them we have never thought about them and hence we can never know what is completely absent to us.
Now b) This is the group of things that we know but still today we don't know how they came about. For example - all the miracles that have happened in the past fit this category. There is no way that we determine ho they happened, but still we can say that they are true due to multiple cross-referenced narratives.
For Muslims the greatest miracles is the Qur'an. Now this Qur'an refers to two matters - one of the zahir and then of the batin - and it talks of that what is hazir and ghaib ...
Zahir is outward or physical and Batin is inward or spirital and Hazir is Manifest and Ghaib is Hidden ...
Now look to see that science is limited within what is Zahir and Hazir - it is blind to what lies in the Ghaib and blind to what lies in the Batin ... For example there is no way that science can prove or disprove "love" - rather we have to use empirical evidence to show this ... and this where we start to make a distinction between science and scientific methods.
Science cannot provide us anything beyond our 5 senses, however we can adopt the methods of science to "reason out" the "likelihood" of "shared experiences" being true - this is called empirical data analysis. Using this technique we can start to answer the questions that science cannot. However people often confuse scientific methods with science and hence give credit to science where in fact none is due.
Rather since the Qur'an talks about these matters it is clearly telling us that there is a place called the "ghaib" - not just something which is hidden to us from our eyesight, but also hidden to us ever being able to discover using scientific tools - we can however access matters of the ghaib through other means and this is where faith comes in to help us ...
My first point is therefore since faith covers all aspects of the 4 types of knowledge and science does not - faith is more useful to us than pure science. For a surety evolution itself employs faith based antics to conclude that in the future we may begin to see evolution take place - currently we have not seen it take place at all ... We have merely got fossil records which can be interpreted in multiple ways and dominant modern scientists have chosen to "believe" that life developed gradually - which may even be true ... but then they go on to say that God is not needed ... which is primarily hasty and illogical reasoning from the data at hand and secondly as a result side with atheism over religion showing passively that they choose to ignore all those areas we do not have access to as insignificant or not even real.
They give reality the definition of what can be seen and ignore the possibility that reality includes all that can be seen and not seen.
And when I say "seen" - I mean it with every possible scientific device .... not just with our eyes.
Re: EVOLUTION VS RELIGION
Re: EVOLUTION VS RELIGION
no man you are right .................:D
inshallah i will answer you soon....
Re: EVOLUTION VS RELIGION
What's the point of this debate? You will not change anyone's mind, and at worst, someone might take offense at something said about religion.
Re: EVOLUTION VS RELIGION
"a) Things we know that we know
b) Things we know that we don't know
c) Things we don't know that we know
d) Things we don't know that we don't know"......
THIS IS "mere" Philosophy..... Point hijacked :P:P
And how can u say that Quran pak is Authentic (assume:an atheist :P)?
Re: EVOLUTION VS RELIGION
What's the point of this debate? You will not change anyone's mind, and at worst, someone might take offense at something said about religion.
Debate hoti kis liay hain :DD, and btw It is biased to say that, "ok,whatever,I am tilted to my point"....it shows weakness of mind
Re: EVOLUTION VS RELIGION
"a) Things we know that we know b) Things we know that we don't know c) Things we don't know that we know d) Things we don't know that we don't know"...... THIS IS "mere" Philosophy..... Point hijacked :P:P
And how can u say that Quran pak is Authentic (assume:an atheist :P)?
Peace kashan123999
Of course it's philosophy ... it has not been hijacked - this tool has been utilised as a means to demonstrate the point that science cannot cater for all types of knowledge and it doesn't claim to do so - so on this basis alone science cannot replace the areas where philosophy/religion dwell.
Regarding the authenticity of the Qur'an - well just look at the current means for determining authenticity of any said subject matter - the tools pioneered by the Muslims are still the best ones around ... That is by:
Multliple transmission
Character profiles of narrators
Documented evidence
Now more recently carbon dating of documents ...
These are scientific methods used to provide us the best possible means to work out what was said or done in the past ... The Qur'an's transmission is mutawaatir and hence it is demonstrated as being authentic.
Next if you want to pick up the content of the Qur'an you check two other matters:
a) Independent witnesses on the character of RasoolaAllah (SAW) now if arbitrary or neutral people confess to the truthfulness of him, then it can be said that it would be logically unfair for us to conclude that a renowned truthful person would lie.
b) Look for a falsification test - Just like any good scientific theory the best way is to ask the person who poses the hypothesis to give a falsification test that deem it wrong if certain things happen or not.
Like Einsteins falsification test about light being subject to gravity where during an eclipse a star that should be behind the sun should be seen because it's light would be being drawn around through a lensing effect - the falsification test would be that if the star was not seen then light is not affected by gravity - the test demonstrated that the postulate was not wrong.
Likewise - the Qur'an is bold - it provides its own falsification test - It says "Had it been from other than God therein would be much discrepancy" and "bring a chapter like it ..." Since the test remains standing it remains demonstrated that the Qur'an being the Word of God is not wrong.
Re: EVOLUTION VS RELIGION
^^this is all philosophical talk.......!!! point closed BUT BUT BUT........yes I very much agree with falsification.....But it is not like a theory, it is like "YES it Exists/is" or "NO it is biased/(isnt)"
The reason "WHY SCIENCE" is because it is Rational,it helps us to make sense of things,look at them objectively......it is not ONLY what "WE" think is true, But what a material (for example) speaks about itself
So any rational arguments? :D
Re: EVOLUTION VS RELIGION
^^this is all philosophical talk.......!!! point closed BUT BUT BUT........yes I very much agree with falsification.....But it is not like a theory, it is like "YES it Exists/is" or "NO it is biased/(isnt)"
The reason "WHY SCIENCE" is because it is Rational,it helps us to make sense of things,look at them objectively......it is not ONLY what "WE" think is true, But what a material (for example) speaks about itself
So any rational arguments? :D
Peace kashan123999
Well rational arguments suggests that irrational does not constitute part of reality and we know that is not true ... there are plenty of things that humans do that is irrational ... in fact there are plenty of workable useful areas of the irrational domain.
For example the square root of 2 or pi as the circumference divided by diameter are both irrational numbers - they are called irrational because they go on to infinitum when written as decimals, but we know in reality that they are very useful numbers in their own right without having to understand them as decimal numbers.
Also science is often to blame for making sense out of what does not make sense ... for example insanity and people getting angry at events that did not manifest in to incidents and religious belief - one man's irrational argument can be explained quite rationally using the science we know and love today.
And science may help us look at things objectively, but not when people claim to be scientists asking from us to put faith into their claims ... such as evolution. Evolution is not something that "science shows us objectively" - objective proof of evolution is impossible because the claim of "evolution" is that takes place over many millenia ... this is not testable and hence it is not objective. It is a belief that things evolve through time just like it is a belief that we will have a Day of Judgement ... I have no need to substitute one belief which is better than the other ... The Day of Judgement makes me in to a nicer person trying to be good, but evolution wants me to feel as though I am competing with others so I must use all tactics to get more in order for my offspring to evolve better than them - or rather that my loins are more sought after than another man because women want to have my babies in order to succeed ... I feel this is a dangerous belief when put in to human terms. So one asks ... how is that rational?
Re: EVOLUTION VS RELIGION
Anth :)
well evolution is proved through fossils :DD
and there is a rational reason behind sq root 2 :P so it is no longer rational...and that was a lame point :DD
"The Day of Judgement makes me in to a nicer person trying to be good, but evolution wants me to feel as though I am competing with others so I must use all tactics to get more in order for my offspring to evolve better than them - or rather that my loins are more sought after than another man because women want to have my babies in order to succeed."
a bit of availability heuristics in the end but
NOW THIS IS THE MAIN THING....no one even touched that point so far,and what I think (maybe i mean,m human,i may be wrong :P),this is awesome,and HERE...on morality,Science IS BLIND. (by now I am switching back to my own point :P) .....Science doesn't teach us morality,and it is not that it may answer the question on morality,It has nothing to say about it...Science don't know How the First life Existed FROM,FROM INTERACTION?,why Earth only till now?What was the FIRST CAUSE (it is biased to say as some atheist do,that "what caused the first cause",if it is first cause,then it logical truth,and can be proved quite rationally),and Why irrationality exists in Cognition,Why this competition was so unusual that humans became the proposed limit of evolutionary complexity even when scientist themselves say that "ABUNDANCE IS OUR FUTURE"... ...and again it is not that science may try to answer,There is nothing here for science,....And I can go on with other rational evidences that ALLAH exists (already mentioned in several other int. forums :P)
..
Regarding authenticity of QURAN,I may write them later...sorry
and Thank u so much sir g,U are an awesome man :)
Re: EVOLUTION VS RELIGION
1)philosophy on its own is nothing to go by as regard God. Why not?Because if you were born in a box and never knew what existed outside the box if anything at all then just sitting inside the box you can only and only conjecture or make assumptions about outside that cannot be relied upon. This proves beyond a shadow of doubt that philosophy is not the tool that can help us regarding existence of God.
Philosophy is created by mullahs to confuse people regarding theology by making them go in circles like a dog chases his tail. How philosophy has helped people reason things ie become rational or logical about concepts and objects.
closing of muslim minds
The Closing of the Muslim Mind: How Intellectual Suicide Created the Modern Islamist Crisis
faith based processes are unreliable
Philosophy News | Jesus, the Easter Bunny, and Other Delusions: Just Say No!
2)Science came about as humans became more and more logically aware and they began to reason things out in the physical world. Science is the only reliable method but is not 100% precise. Again the scientists have taken up the cause of science to confuse people because they try to put across information about the science that is not true.
For example, scientists have not managed so far to measure anything precisely because technologist have not managed so far to create any precision instrument or testing method. It all begins and ends with approximation due to margin of error.
The scientific method revolves around observations, deductions, predictions and verifications.
Most people have no idea what all this is about and some are not even interested in learning but they are ready for arguing over things anyway. May be following links will help us understand things better.
mojizaat possible? dr israr
Miracle of Hazrat Ibrahim - Is Allah bound to natural Laws - 021 AL AMBIA 068 070 - YouTube
definition of miracle
Definition of a Miracle (Pt 2) - The Atheist Experience #693 - YouTube
Supernatural Explanations
Supernatural Explanations - The Atheist Experience #699 - YouTube
How do you know the bible is God’s word?
How do you know the bible is God’s word? (The Atheist Experience) - YouTube
3)Coming to the quran, it is testimony of Allah for mankind and is 100% provable just like any other testimony in court of law. This is why the quran is proof of all things about Allah and universe and humanity.
It is unfortunate that muslims have been misled by their mullahs and therefore they too became like people of any other religion following everything like other people when they were actually supposed to lead humanity out of its problems with help of the divine guidance. Recently instead of taking major stand points put forth by sir syed and iqbal they began opposing them and today we can see state in which we find muslim nations.
How money is used to control humanity
The Money Masters - Full - YouTube
The new world order as the powerful want it.
Invisible Empire A New World Order Defined Full (Order it at Infowars.com) - YouTube
for better explanation please see my following thread
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/religion-and-scripture/522010-have-we-understood-the-quran-properly.html
Re: EVOLUTION VS RELIGION
Anth :)
well evolution is proved through fossils :D..........
Also:
Evolution is a scientific theory, based on evidence physically collected by humanity.
Creationism isn't.
Re: EVOLUTION VS RELIGION
Ofcourse we accept science.It explains a lot.But within science itself there r conflicts too.Differences.New discoveries.
I read about two weeks ago that this discrepancy was due to a poorly calibrated instrument.
Also, just because there are some differences among scientists, that is no reason to dismiss Science. In fact, in Science, as opposed to religion, one changes one;s views as new evidence presents itself. I think that is the way it should be, dont you?
Re: EVOLUTION VS RELIGION
I read about two weeks ago that this discrepancy was due to a poorly calibrated instrument.
Also, just because there are some differences among scientists, that is no reason to dismiss Science. In fact, in Science, as opposed to religion, one changes one;s views as new evidence presents itself. I think that is the way it should be, dont you?
Peace Southie
So how do we improve on the idea that "there is only One God" ?
Re: EVOLUTION VS RELIGION
How are you, Psyah?
I agree with you that we cannot improve upon that. Good point.
Re: EVOLUTION VS RELIGION
Evolution hui kyunk Allah pak ye sab chahty thy,Ek taqat mojud hy jo pori qainat ko sambhaly huy hai ye baat to wo scientist bhi manty hain jo evolution ki baat krty hain,to hum muslims hoky aisi baaton pr kyun behas krhy hain jo sahi nahi,ap sab Quran pak mn likhi hr ek baat ko manty hain qabool krty hain???If YES so why we think like that.
evolution hua is sy yeh baat bhi sabit nahi hoti ky Allah pak nahi hain.
Re: EVOLUTION VS RELIGION
