I forgive mr. A.Q.Khan. No one's perfect. The man's made a mistake. Big deal.
Re: Demise of Pakistani nation
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Code_Red: *
Today, on February 4, 2004, Pakistani nation died after being on life support for a long time.
The people living in Pakistan are no more a nation. They are scattered bunch of individuals waiting for vultures to eat them.
Pakistan humiliated, disgraced its most celebrated son of the soil. The person, we saw as a hero, respected him, prayed for his saftey and loved him.
Sorry sir, but we are a dead nation.
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----i dont have the guts to read todays newspapers....
cant write my feelings.........Allah in say badla ay ......lainatul lah.....
*Originally posted by MiniMe: *
**
I disagree, the Russian attack on Afghanistan and the 1971 crisis were not less in any sense.**
and did teh nation or government act in the ideal manner in your point of view? did we do the right thing? teh ideal thing or the practical thing there?
and there are differences, in the case of russian attack, we were not being attacked, had we chosen to go to overtly join afghanistan in teh wat without the backing of US, we would be teh same way afghanistan is.
** Do you think the Pakistani Army was better then? **
well the results of 1971 are pretty evident in the form of bangaldesh..
and the russia-afghanistan deal, there was support from another super power
who do you think would come to Pakistan rescue if it got into a spat with the US..
*Just because there was an attack in US, Pakistan should change it foreign policies because a neighboring (forget Muslim) dependable country was in imminent threat from a superpower. *
If i recall right, Pakistan tried to mediate, but if US govt is not willing to back off, and taeban were nto willing to back down...the mediator could nto accomplish jack..and it made sense to disengage.
*It happened before as well. There where other options that the leadership could have used, or mediated. But the leadership proved impotent both on political and military grounds. *
The govt mediated..but either party was not willing to back off.
*Our leaders care too much about the international mood and care less about their own citizens, *
International mood directly affects the interests and wellbeing of our own citizens. teh effects of sanctiosn after nuclear tests is an example. and we saw what sanctiosn did in Iraq.
*the simple reason is that they do not represent the masses. Not only this they want the masses to follow their ideals. *
well that may be the case, but masses have picked candidates like BB and then cried about it months later. and then who else is there who will represent the masses and make teh right choices maintaining country interests, domestic mood, international situation and all in balance...
*Give me one incident, any source, where Pakistani people came out in protest for being suffering from the sanctions. *
They came out not against sanctiosn but against nawaz and citing economic conditions and "mehngai" etc as some issues.
** But sanctions never heart the Pakistani people more than the policies of its leaders.**
I trust u meant hurt and not heart?
sanctions defintely hurt the Pakistani people..the poor economy created havoc for many families.
*As far as I can recall until 2001 Pakistan has always been under some sort of sanctions, so it’s not new. *
under some sort of sanctions is not the same thing as under embargo liek Iraq was.
*I wish the Pakistani, people ask some thing in return of these taxes they pay as well, like representative leaders not like the Choudries, Mians, Jatois, Bhuttos, Lagahraiz, who have been the leaders by not paying taxes. *
sure, do u know what percentage of Pakistanis pays taxes?? and no the tax evaders are not just yer chaudhries and what nots. The leaders come from the qaum..sadly as crooked as these chaudhrys and bhuttos and lagharis, and maulanas may be, they do trully reflect whatthe nation is like. bhutto does not add water in the milk, jatoi does not make his taxi meter go fast, leghari does not ask you for a bribe at customs, Mian does not ask u for a bribe at a traffic sign, choudhry does not sell you counterfeit car parts as genuine.
I nominate brother khilaari as the new advisor! j/k
One thing is for sure, musharraf ka end me anjaam acha nahee hona, these are the same people that humiliated a leader like Ayub, so musharraf kiya cheez hai?
I dont know if all of this was pre-planned but as I see it Pakistan govt. has played its cards very well. They've not only managed to secure Qadeer's future (A house in posh Isb sector with all facilities for the rest of his life is pretty much guranteed, since the cabinet is more than likely going to pardon Dr.Khan) but also they can say to world that they have throughly investigated the whole case, and taken it to its conclusion.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by 5Abi: *
*Malik, you bring a good point, Pak should look out for her own national interest and not trust the "ummah" of Iran, Libya or Saudia. Iran and Libya ratted out and pointed fingers at Pakistan should think twice before trusting these countries. It should be noted here that North Korea has never implicated Pakistan or linked its nuclear tech to Pakistan, as far as I know. Thats something to think about too. *
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Absolutely spot on. It was these so-called Muslim countries that ratted on Pakistan, not North Korea or other non-Muslim countries, yet somehow the supporters of extremists and looters don't want to even address that point. Why?
Yes, we have a few people here (supported by Indian's) very angry not just at the skillful mastery of the Musharraf government in getting us out of this crisis, but also the fact that almost every prediction they have made in this thread has proven to be dead wrong. Such people were quite happily quoting anti-Pakistani articles from an array of mainly western sources (and they are still desperately doing it), and believing the lies being told in those papers. One can start quoting such posts, just to prove how wrong those predictions were...but why make it harder for them?
Abdul Qadeer Khan said it all his national address yesterday, trashing all the lies they have been promoting throughout this thread. If they are not satisified by that and what he has publicly said, and heed the advice he gave to all Pakistani people, then what can one do, but pray for them? :)
For those who think that the top brass of the army was not involved in the nuclear proliferation. I hope not only scientists but also the generals will be brought to justice.
Recent details carried by the American press about nuclear proliferation from Pakistan to North Korea, Iran and Libya have suddenly put a new complexion on the investigation being carried out by Pakistan against its nuclear scientists. These reports contain details of the revelations made by Dr AQ Khan to his investigators and subsequently leaked to the press in Washington and New York. Mr Khan has allegedly revealed that ‘he helped North Korea design and equip facilities for making weapons-grade uranium with the knowledge of senior military commanders, including Gen. Pervez Musharraf, Pakistan’s president’. Meanwhile, chief of the MMA, Qazi Hussain Ahmad, has told the TV channels that Mr Khan had denied to him that he has ever submitted any confessional statement to his investigators as claimed by the government leaks. In this connection, the latest position Wednesday was that Dr AQ Khan had submitted a mercy petition to President Musharraf which would be decided upon by the Nuclear Command and Control Authority.
The position taken by Islamabad after the scandal of proliferation broke was that some Pakistani scientists had sold nuclear technology and hardware ‘for their personal financial gain’ without the knowledge of the government and the military establishment. It also absolved President Pervez Musharraf from any suspicion of involvement because the incidents of proliferation are supposed to have taken place before his term in office and because he had made the nuclear programme safe through the setting up of Pakistan Nuclear Command and Control Authority in 2002. This position has now been seriously undermined by what has appeared in the ‘Washington Post’ of 3rd February, 2004. Mr Khan is supposed to have told the investigators that ‘Gen. Mirza Aslam Beg, the Pakistani army chief of staff from 1988 to 1991, was aware of assistance Khan was providing to Iran’s nuclear program and that two other army chiefs, in addition to Musharraf, knew and approved of his efforts on behalf of North Korea.’
The Post story has come up with more information on the extent of the state’s involvement in what Dr Khan was doing. The paper says: ‘A retired Pakistani army corps commander said Monday that the barter arrangement dates to December 1994, when then-Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto traveled to North Korea at the request of General Abdul Waheed, the army chief of staff at the time. A few months later, Khan led a delegation of scientists and military officers to Pyongyang, the North Korean capital, according to the retired general and a senior active duty officer, both of whom spoke on condition of anonymity. Musharraf was serving at the time as Waheed’s director general for military operations’. After General Waheed, there is further allegation that in 1997, General Jahangir Karamat, who followed him in the post of the COAS, secretly visited North Korea and then in 1998 ‘presided over the successful test-firing of a medium-range missile the Pakistanis called a Ghauri. According to U.S. intelligence officials and a former Pakistani nuclear scientist, the Ghauri was simply a renamed North Korean-supplied Nodong missile.’
As for General Musharraf’s involvement in this proliferation, new allegations have come to light from the ‘leaks’ from friends of Mr Khan. Dr Khan is supposed to have asserted to his investigators that ‘Musharraf had to have been aware of the agreement with North Korea because Musharraf took over responsibility for the Ghauri missile program when he became army chief of staff in October 1998’. The Pakistani claim that no proliferation activity could have been carried after the establishment of the Nuclear Command and Control Authority in 2002, has been presumably rebutted by another report in ‘The New York Times’ that Libya kept on receiving nuclear ‘help’ from Pakistan till the autumn of 2003! Add to this Dr Khan’s other alleged statement that he supplied nuclear technology to the three countries clandestinely ‘because he thought the emergence of more nuclear states would ease Western attention on Pakistan. He also said he thought it would help the Muslim cause.’
In spite of the above ‘revelations’ in the American press, the Administration in Washington has expressed the view that it is satisfied with the steps that General Musharraf is taking at home to make sure that a clean breast is made of the matter and no further proliferation takes place. But the problem for President Musharraf is no longer related as much to foreign policy as it is to domestic politics. The official position is becoming untenable in the eyes of the people who regard Dr Khan as a national hero. If the state of Pakistan was involved in proliferation how can the scientists be isolated and made the scapegoat? No one believes that the scientists could have smuggled some heavy nuclear hardware abroad without the knowledge of the Pakistan army which has been in charge of the nuclear programme.
Considering that Pakistan has remained seriously destabilised on questions of foreign policy, leading to at least three attempts on the life of General Musharraf, it is just the wrong time to hold trials in connection with what has come to light about proliferation. We simply cannot afford to further erode the credibility of the scientists as well as that of the Pakistan army and its chiefs. The only way out of this crisis is to close the nuke scientists file by accepting the mercy petition of the scientists; by making sure that a repetition of what happened should not take place and that the scientists, while being sealed from further proliferation, should be treated in such a way that they are not able to continue to glorify themselves in the public eye or be in any position to ‘leak’ more harmful information to the outside world. This is paramount in the interest of the security of our nuclear programme which should be guarded at all cost. *
How ironic...the great myth that civilians can't run Pakistan properly is shattered.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Malik73: *
IF, the allegations against Qadeer and co are true i.e. of $2 billion in foreign bank accounts, multiple properties and businesses everywhere etc, then he must have been paid a great deal by Iran and Libya to procure and facilitate nuclear technology? Then the government should do two things:-
1) Ask Qadeer to hand over all this cash and property back to the Pakistani state, as it would go a long way to wipe away a great portion of our external debt.
2) At the same time ask him to document all the information he has acquired about the nuclear programmes of Iran and other states he may have helped (the Libyans have already volunteered theirs), and then pass all this info over to the IAEA.
Then pardon Qadeer and others. Classic political deal, Pakistani style which reaps great economic benefit for us, and restores international favour for us at the same time. :)
[/QUOTE]
:)
As I predicted, President Musharraf has just pardoned A Q Qadeer, with the following statement:-
"There's a written appeal from his side and there's a pardon written from my side. Whatever I have done, I have tried to shield him. But one has to balance between international requirements and shielding. "
P.S. Now let the whiners, whine on. :p
And for those who implied that Musharraf was taking Pakistan down the path of nuclear disarmament…
***He said Pakistan would not submit to any U.N. supervision of its weapons program, and that no documents would be handed over to the U.N. nuclear watchdog, the International Atomic Energy Agency …
Despite the latest controversy, Musharraf said Pakistan wouldn’t ever give up its nuclear weapons.
"This country will never roll back its nuclear assets,‘’ he said.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by shawaiz: *
For those who think that the top brass of the army was not involved in the nuclear proliferation. I hope not only scientists but also the generals will be brought to justice.
[/QUOTE]
By who? Musharraf is America's man and the whole western world is probably behind him.
Now if Musharraf was buckling under western pressure, during this very difficult of times would he be making this very public declaration to the IAEA? But this part I liked, as well:-
***However, he said the IAEA was welcome to come and discuss the proliferation issue with Pakistan. ``We are open and we will tell them everything,‘’ Musharraf said. ***
Just as I predicted, it’s time Pakistan started ratting on those who ratted against us. 
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Mr Xtreme: *
By who? Musharraf is America's man and the whole western world is probably behind him.
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you are still against mush Mr Xtreme. he just declared that he is open to discuss issues but Pakistan would not submit anything to IAEA or UN. If not, can you name someone else who could've done this and saved Pakistan?
:hehe: :rotfl: :hehe: :rotfl: :hehe: :rotfl:
Musharraf also said the all guilty will be strongly punished :hehe:
If I had a dollar for every time Musharraf has lied to us, I’d be Bill Gates.
Did you guys listen to Mushraff this morning? (Maybe I was listening to a recording) He sounded really mad, and tried to clear up the names ... but some of the key details he missed; like why did the army didn't know about the leaks?
Musharraf has become godfather of Pakistan. It is up to him whether he pardons a criminal, expatriates him or puts him into jail. In this way the dictators restore democracy.