I must add that Musharraf is perhaps the most Machiavellian of all our leaders.
Despite the Indians saying they like all this, it must be sending chillies up their whatsits after seeing that Musharraf threaded the needle yet again. 
okay so not the ideal circumstances, but being able to navigate and deal with tough situations is important.
so there are some who think the solution or approach is not ideal..well maybe it is not, but for now it looks like it a feasible approach.
who else would you rather have handling a crises like this? Fazloo?BB? altaf? or nawaz..
Now this is what I call confirmation.
Nuclear scientist begs for mercy
Pakistan’s top nuclear scientist has confessed to leaking nuclear secrets to Iran, Libya and North Korea.
Abdul Qadeer Khan met President Pervez Musharraf on Wednesday and later went on TV to accept full responsibility for all nuclear transfers.
Dr Khan, regarded as a national hero, told the nation he had acted without authorisation and begged forgiveness.
President Musharraf said the case, which has sparked a national outcry, had traumatised Pakistan.
Pakistan began an inquiry into possible illegal transfers late last year after the UN passed on information it had gathered about Iran and Libya’s nuclear programmes.
There was never ever any kind of authorisation for these activities by the government - I take full responsibility
Abdul Qadeer Khan
A government statement issued on Wednesday read: "Dr AQ Khan submitted before the president that he accepts full responsibility for all the proliferation activities.
“Dr Khan has submitted his mercy petition to the president and requested clemency in view of his services to national security.”
Apology
**Later Dr Khan made his own televised statement in which he cleared President Musharraf and other government and military officials of any involvement in nuclear proliferation.
“There was never ever any kind of authorisation for these activities by the government. I take full responsibility for my actions and seek your pardon,” Dr Khan said.
He told his television audience: “I have chosen to appear before you to offer my deepest regrets and unqualified apologies.” **
On Saturday, Dr Khan was sacked as special science and technology adviser to the president.
Then on Sunday officials said he had signed a confession admitting he had traded nuclear technology information to other countries.
Later on Wednesday, President Musharraf is scheduled to meet the top nuclear decision-making authority to discuss Dr Khan’s plea for mercy.
National outcry
More than 15 people from the nuclear enrichment facility that Dr Khan used to run, Khan Research Laboratories, have been questioned in the nuclear transfers investigation.
Pakistani officials said Dr Khan had run a network that systematically smuggled nuclear equipment to third countries using chartered planes.
They said the network shared secret designs for centrifuges capable of producing weapons-grade uranium.
Dr Khan, it is alleged, also secretly travelled abroad to explain to Iranian, Libyan and North Korean scientists how to make nuclear bombs.
However, he remains popular in Pakistan and his dismissal on Saturday sparked a national outcry.
Correspondents say the government has to decide whether to prosecute Dr Khan, a move that could provoke a domestic backlash.
Opposition parties accuse President Musharraf of bowing to American pressure over the move.
Dr Khan’s supporters say if there was nuclear transference it could not have happened without the knowledge of military intelligence.
President Musharraf has insisted that no official has sanctioned the supply of nuclear secrets to other states.
So, was Maulana Qazi Hussain Ahmad lying? No news there I suppose.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
who else would you rather have handling a crises like this? Fazloo?BB? altaf? or nawaz..
[/QUOTE]
That's what I asked earlier as well and didn't get many answers. Criticsm is ok, and possibly justified as well. But bottom line is that Mushy is mvoing inexorably in the right direction on a number of fronts.
I would go further and make moves towards recognising Israel which would be a massive step in cementing relations with Washington and safeguarding the nukes. Just cause or not, we have done enough damage to our country on behalf of Palestine or the Ummah.
Here is a link to AQ Khan’s full appology
Nuclear scientist apologises - text
I don’t like the guy very much, but his coming forward has earned some respect in my heart. Doesn’t mean I buy his ‘bad judgement & good faith’ speech.
Excuse me.
Mr.Xtreme, you asked who else can lead our country?
That is why we have something called elections. I mean the ones not engineered by the ISI.
Why do we reduce it to a personality cult? When ZAB was at the height of unpopularity in 1976, people could have asked, "Who else could lead?"
What Musharraf hs done so far is to make small crises big and then cut deals with Americans or Indians and take the pressure off. In the short run it looks like we escaped but in the long run, today our international image is that of an unstable state which will collapse if not for Musharraf. Is that good for us to get reduced to a one man state?
Great leaders are judged by what their legacy is, what stage they leave their country in when they leave.
When Musharraf goes, he takes all his deals between him and America with him.
Pakistan will be left holding the bag. And we still have the same coterie of Chaduries of Gujrat and their ilk firmly entrenched.
Systemically, nothing has changed in Pakistan. Zippo, Nada, Bupkus.
^ man all u do is whine...
a) Musharaf made a deal with india and US.
b) Future action in FATA
c) AQ threatened to expose army
and list goes on and on...
Could you produce some credible evidence to back this claim?
Also please propose a substitute to Musharaf if u dislike him that much...
should we bring HT or the talibaan??
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Khilaari: *
Excuse me.
Mr.Xtreme, you asked who else can lead our country?
That is why we have something called elections. I mean the ones not engineered by the ISI.
Why do we reduce it to a personality cult? When ZAB was at the height of unpopularity in 1976, people could have asked, "Who else could lead?"
What Musharraf hs done so far is to make small crises big and then cut deals with Americans or Indians and take the pressure off. In the short run it looks like we escaped but in the long run, today our international image is that of an unstable state which will collapse if not for Musharraf. Is that good for us to get reduced to a one man state?
[/QUOTE]
Khilaari, I agree with you in principle, but elections in the short term would just have given us BB or the Sharif clan and Pakistan in the current world situation couldn't really afford to have people like that at the helm IMO.
As for the image of Pakistan being of an unstable state that's true, but most independent observers seem to think that Musharaff has done a pretty good job of trying to reverse that. Nawaz is sitting in Saudi right now so that tells you where he's coming from, and BB, well she's still fighting a case against the Swiss banks isn't she?
Originally posted by Khilaari: *
**What Musharraf hs done so far is to make small crises big and then cut deals with Americans or Indians and take the pressure off. *
he made small crises big?
the whole afghanistan situation, was thata small crises that He made bigger? or was that a big..huge crisis that he safguarded Pakistan against by cutting deals which were unpopular with some but based in logic rather than emotions. people who got emotional went o afghanistan with their rifles and were later left stranded as teh taelban escaped in burqaas.
the issues with India which he is trying to resolve. did he make a small crisis into a big crisis? or have we fought a few wars with india already and have tense relatiosn which he has attempted to solve.
The nukes situation..did he make it bigger than it is, or was it a major situation that he has contained as best as possible.
The extrmist issue, did he make it bigger than it is, or is it a big issue that no one had tackled so far which needed to be done, a tough thankless task of trying to control idiots lashkar e this and tehrik e that.
*In the short run it looks like we escaped but in the long run, today our international image is that of an unstable state which will collapse if not for Musharraf. Is that good for us to get reduced to a one man state? *
3 points
1) there is no long run if there is no short run.
2) that image that you talk of, when was it that we did not have that image?
3) as far as a one man state goes, lets look back..i dont recall any particular point in recent history of pak when it was not a one man show (excpet when it was a one woman show) nawaz, BB, zia, bhutto..
Lets just say this... In recent history of pakistan. No leader has faced the type of intense pressure, Pakistan as a country has not faced the intense challenges that it faces today. The solutions may not be ideal and may nto eb to everyone's liking, the process of change may be slow, and may not be perfect, but we are under the international microscope since the those buffoons crashed the planes.
Is musharraf perfect no
are his solutions ideal no
but he has done better than pretty much any other leader in Pakistan would have done. as i said before...where would we be today if at 9/11 we had fazloo in power, or BB in power.
Fraudia,
Let's see:
Afghan Situation
He got one phone call from Powell and then unconditionally agreed to all US requests. Look at Turkey, they don't even have nukes. They gave finger to Uncle.
Kashmir
WE have Powell saying he put pressure on both sides. But we are the ones making concession after concession. First Musharraf set aside UN resolutions, thereby permanently destroying a strong basis for our just cause in Kashmir. He then unilaterally offered a ceasfire, which enabled India to build a fence fast. Why would Musharraf accept the fence if LoC was not going to be frozen for good? Then, most ignominously, Musharraf agreed that there is terrorism from "Pakistan controlled territory" meaning AJK. In 1999, Gunja's Lahore agreement was 10000 times more honourable.
Nukes
Firstly, Musharraf was acting irresponsibly when he still did not check all these acts after he came to power and especially after 9-11. What did he think, AQK can carry goods on PAF planes to Libya and North Korea and US will not know?
That is why I blame him for making the problem bigger. He is the supreme commander of our armed forces and the armed forces control our nuclear establishment. He let our nuclear establishment play a dangerous game with nukes and got caught. When he was busted, he tried to pass off the blame to AQK alone. That backfired. Now he has negotiated a deal with AQK as well as US. God know how much more indignity that will bring to our qaum.
Extremism
Musharraf was the one who encouraged the MMA. By banning the PML-N and PPP, and by ISI dirty tricks MMA came to power. Why were all cases against prominent MMA leaders dropped just before elections if Musharraf did not want them to win?
As to the jihadi tanzeems, we all know the sectarian thugs that were let ou just before elections after promise to support PML-lotaz.
Here again, Musharraf played a double game. Giving all fancy speeches on "enlightened moderation" to Goras while making deals with MMA back home.
Where is that leading us?
Corruption
Musharraf has recruited the same Chaudhries, Aftab Sherpao, Faisal Hayyat, Sheikh Rashid etc. who looted Pakistan under Gunja and BB. There is no difference now.
As to Army corruption, nothing is being done. General after retired General is buying plots cheaply and making a killing. I can list out a few dozen big scams in the last two years all involving retired Armymen.
We are ranked just as corrupt today as before Musharraf.
Finally, say what you want about the civlian leaders. They will not be forgiven for their corruption and plunder. Especially Ganja, Abbaji and BB.
**But let it not be forgotten that it was the civilian leaders that have ever stood up to the US.
Z.A.Bhutto said NO to US about stopping the nuke program when they offered fighters in return for shutting down our facility.
Gunja was the one who resisted 1000 times pressure than Musharraf ever had when he ordered nuclear tests after India tested in 1998.
Musharraf has been eager to cave in time after again with phone calls doing the trick.**
*Originally posted by Khilaari: *
Fraudia,
Let's see:
Afghan Situation
He got one phone call from Powell and then unconditionally agreed to all US requests. Look at Turkey, they don't even have nukes. They gave finger to Uncle. **
is turkey next to afghanistan
did turket recognize afghanistan
did Taleban have ties to Turkey?
Turkey did not have any skin in the game. Turkey did not have any relations with saddma in the way pakistan did with taleban.
**
Kashmir
WE have Powell saying he put pressure on both sides. But we are the ones making concession after concession. First Musharraf set aside UN resolutions, thereby permanently destroying a strong basis for our just cause in Kashmir. He then unilaterally offered a ceasfire, which enabled India to build a fence fast. Why would Musharraf accept the fence if LoC was not going to be frozen for good? Then, most ignominously, Musharraf agreed that there is terrorism from "Pakistan controlled territory" meaning AJK. In 1999, Gunja's Lahore agreement was 10000 times more honourable. **
is there a difference of circumstances between 1999 and 2003-2004?
does US have more of a vested interest in india due to economy etc?
the advances made in kashmir issue were all lost on 9/11.
kashmir was not on anyone's radar really until recently
UN resolutions? whether or not u set them aside, have they accomplished anythign for us yet? did we accomplish what we wanted when we had the resolutions?
later in your post u say that we continued with the nuke things as if we would nto be caught, well here he was proactive and admitted that there is a problem with terrorism, as if that could have been something that one can hide. he did teh right thing by noting it, banning the groups etc etc.
***Nukes*
Firstly, Musharraf was acting irresponsibly when he still did not check all these acts after he came to power and especially after 9-11. What did he think, AQK can carry goods on PAF planes to Libya and North Korea and US will not know? **
Has this not been going on for sometime anyways, u think the intelligence community would have been blind to it?
BUt yes, in hindsight he should have been more aware of that and shut it down. But he is not the only president of some country who has faced an embarassing situation with fallguys. ollie north and Iran contra deal comes to mind.
*That is why I blame him for making the problem bigger. He is the supreme commander of our armed forces and the armed forces control our nuclear establishment. He let our nuclear establishment play a dangerous game with nukes and got caught. When he was busted, he tried to pass off the blame to AQK alone. That backfired. Now he has negotiated a deal with AQK as well as US. God know how much more indignity that will bring to our qaum. *
Did he start this game? or had thsi game being played before he even entetred in the picture? and once the game has started..could you just stop it and come clean? stopping before getting caught or stopping after getting caught either is not a good situation to be. This game should have never been started whoever was involved in it and at whatever levels.
The problem was not made bigger by him, the problem was a big problem when it started..it was just hidden, and now it no longer is. Based on the cards that he has been dealt, he has made the right decisions.
Should he have known about this and stopped it as soon as he got into power, probably. aside from that, i dont think there is anything that he could have done differently.
**Extremism
Musharraf was the one who encouraged the MMA. By banning the PML-N and PPP, and by ISI dirty tricks MMA came to power. Why were all cases against prominent MMA leaders dropped just before elections if Musharraf did not want them to win?
As to the jihadi tanzeems, we all know the sectarian thugs that were let ou just before elections after promise to support PML-lotaz.
Here again, Musharraf played a double game. Giving all fancy speeches on "enlightened moderation" to Goras while making deals with MMA back home. **
MMA ppl are idiots in general but they are not the type of extremists blowing up buildings, shooting at buses, etc etc. I am referring to lashkar e this and tanzim e that etc.
*Corruption
Musharraf has recruited the same Chaudhries, Aftab Sherpao, Faisal Hayyat, Sheikh Rashid etc. who looted Pakistan under Gunja and BB. There is no difference now. *
true, but he has also recruited ppl like shaukat aziz, and developed grassroots level political reforms. hey i would have been very happy had he just executed all the politicians, but thats not very feasible now is it?
**As to Army corruption, nothing is being done. General after retired General is buying plots cheaply and making a killing. I can list out a few dozen big scams in the last two years all involving retired Armymen.
We are ranked just as corrupt today as before Musharraf.**
army corruption is indeed a problem, these problems were created overtime and have been ingrained, yanking them out in one swift blw is easier said than done.
we are NOT ranked as corrupt today as before musharraf.
we have better standing economically..even without teh aid than we have had in past. refer to world bank reports.
But let it not be forgotten that it was the civilian leaders that have ever stood up to the US.
on what issues? I dont recall BB making any waves..
**Z.A.Bhutto said NO to US about stopping the nuke program when they offered fighters in return for shutting down our facility.
Gunja was the one who resisted 1000 times pressure than Musharraf ever had when he ordered nuclear tests after India tested in 1998.**
the circumstances were completely different, lets not forget 9/11 took place in the interim.
Musharraf has been eager to cave in time after again with phone calls doing the trick.
He is a a wise man to understand that the situation the country is in, he would rather meet demands after a phone call than after an invasion.
Demise of Pakistani nation
Today, on February 4, 2004, Pakistani nation died after being on life support for a long time.
The people living in Pakistan are no more a nation. They are scattered bunch of individuals waiting for vultures to eat them.
Pakistan humiliated, disgraced its most celebrated son of the soil. The person, we saw as a hero, respected him, prayed for his saftey and loved him.
Sorry sir, but we are a dead nation.
I disagree.
We are seeing the beginning of the end of yet another dictator. Whether he is a Sadat (taken out by his own) or Zia (taken out by the Godfathers), we will see.
We survived 1971. We survived Zia. We will survive after this.
Our qaum is built tough and it will withstand all kinds of jahilyat. Inshallah one day we will get a real leader.
Pakistan To Get Record $700 Million
WASHINGTON, USA: Feb 04 (PNS) - Pakistan will get a record fund allocation of $ 700 million from the United States for financial year 2004-5. The amount is part of the five-year (05 to 09) aid package that totals $ 3 billion - $ 1.5 billion in Defence and $ 1.5 billion in economic support assistance.
In an interview with APP, the Deputy Chief of the Mission, Mohammad Sadiq Monday said the United States Administration has suggested "a record fund allocation of over 700 million dollars for Pakistan for the U.S. budgetary year 2005."
It is higher than the previous fund allocation for the current year, which amounted to 395 million dollars, of which figure, half was utilized in debt repayments saving on the debt interest amount.
"This is despite the fact that there was immense opposition from Indian lobby and others, who tried to bring about different enactments in a bid to halt the proposed earmarkings," Mr.Sadiq stated.
Out of $700, the allocations are $300 in Economic Support Fund, $300 for Foreign Military Financing, and remaining $100 forother areas including allocations for child health development assistance, anti-terrrorism, border security and training, support for narcotics control.
He said Pakistan has utilized the $200 million for Economic Support Fund for repayment of its debt. It helped in writing off of almost $500 million debt to the US.Pakistan's foreign debt and liabilities total $35 billion, of which $33 billion is debt.
The $3 billion package was announced by President George W. Bush at Camp David in a meeting with President General Pervez Musharraf on June 24, 2003.
According to the agreement, $600 million will be disbursed each year - half of the amount being for defence equipment purchases and remaining half for economic development.
President George W. Bush signed and submitted to the Congress
the budgetary allocations Monday.
Re: Demise of Pakistani nation
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Code_Red: *
Today, on February 4, 2004, Pakistani nation died after being on life support for a long time.
The people living in Pakistan are no more a nation. They are scattered bunch of individuals waiting for vultures to eat them.
Pakistan humiliated, disgraced its most celebrated son of the soil. The person, we saw as a hero, respected him, prayed for his saftey and loved him.
Sorry sir, but we are a dead nation.
[/QUOTE]
Don't be disheartened. Look at it this way.
A.Q(the hero) has yet again single handedly saved
PAK.
I salute him.
take care
Fraudia,
Two points.
You think the US has the guts to invade Pakistan? 
The best they could have done is sanctions, and it couldn’t have been worse than what we had until Sep 10, 2001.
Secondly, about the Jihadi tanzeems. Can you name one tanzeem whose ameer has been arrested or put on trial? Javed HAshmi is in jail without trial. Zardari is in jail for 7 years without trial. But all the jihadi jahils are out free under Musharraf.
As to my other points, you cannot defend Musharraf on corruption, which has been the same as before.
So here we are. Four years plus and in terms of real reform, we have Z E R O
Re: Re: Demise of Pakistani nation
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by rehman1: *
Don't be disheartened. Look at it this way.
A.Q(the hero) has yet again single handedly saved
PAK.
I salute him.
take care
[/QUOTE]
The time will tell, who is saved. The fact of the mater is that we were not a good nation. We blame every leader of wrong doing. but we forget that we made them leaders and we gave them power.
What the hell if he transfered any technology. We should have backed him. And never should have cofessed any wrong doings. Has America and Britain ever confessed that they unjustly waged war on Iraq and killed thousand of innocent people. Has russia ever appologised for killing millions of Afgans.
And talk about unity of Muslim ummah. Unity with traitors like Libya and Iran. Who saved their ass, and stabed their brothers in back. shame on them and shame on us.
khilaari
military war is not the only type of war that can mess with a country is there? How long would pakistan last under severe iraq-esque sanctions.
people had wondered whether US would invade iraq too btw.
as far as corruption gos, although Pakistan is not some great place and corruption free, we are not ranked #2 like before, unless u are suggesting that we bribed someone to rank us less corrupt :)
No i dont know of any extremist who is in jail, and that is wrong.
Having Zardari in jail is wrong too, he should be tried and lynched, and so should his wife and other PPP goons.
the bloodbaths of hyderabad are not forgotten.
You’re a little off base here.