^ yeah but he should have known better..pakistan say kabhi achi news kyon nahi aati?
It’s like to dog who cried wolf.
For years our government has been lying on everything. Taliban - WE have nothing to do with them, Jihadis - They are not our people, Nukes - We did nothing wrong etc.
Now its open season on Pakistan. When you admit being a liar on one thing, it’s licence for everyone and their uncle to pile on and send out all sorts of “news” on Pakistan.
Sheikh Rashid, ISPR, FO and even Gen.Musharraf need not bother denying it because the world assumes they are lying.
Sheesh 
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Khilaari:
**Malik73,
That will never happen... **
[/QUOTE]
Believe me you never know.
But don't worry many of the things reported in the Pakistani and international media about this 'crisis' will never happen. If you notice some of the stories posted contradict others, and most are just pure sensationalism and speculation, with little factual basis. In fact if you think back over 2003 it was variously predicted that the Musharraf-Jamali administration would openly support/vote for America's position on Iraq, recognise Israel, and would send troops to Iraq for sure. I don't even need to list the number of predictions made in 2002 about what Musharraf would decide about Pakistan's political makeup upto the elections, only for those to be proved all wrong. Going back to the first half of 2001, in the months leading upto the Agra Summit people were openly predicting various negative consequences for the Kashmir struggle, only for them to be proved ever so wrong.
To be fair, there have not just been wildly off base predictions (and talk of "sell outs" and accusations of treason etc) made about and against the Musharraf government but also all previous governments since 1988. Tell me how many times over the last 15 years have the Benazir, Nawaz, Musharraf and Jamali governments been accused of wanting to turn the "LOC" in Kashmir into an international border? Did anything ever come of that? NO.
Apart from the U-turn made over Afghanistan (which any other government or leader would have done the same or worse), which in my view now was absolutely necessary to save Pakistan (we should always come first), all other accusations do not amount to much. It's time we set aside our emotions and accusations, stop dreaming of some utopia that does not exist in reality, and start thinking about our Pakistan first. After the behaviour of some of our so-called 'brothers' and how they have landed Pakistan right in it for whatever vindictive reasoning, I am more than ever convinced that we should start realigning our foreign policy completely and radically towards a Pakistan First direction, where we conduct relations with all states on an equal and quantative basis ensuring maximum benefit for Pakistan.
We have yet to see proof. I dont think the man is a traitor. The traitors are Iran and Libya. As they sold us out to the Americans. A good old fashioned covert ops killing some leaders should do the trick when it comes to them. They sold us out and they need to be dealt with.
The Hero of the nation is no traitor. He has done alot for nation. Plus is extremely pathetic to see people believe the government one min and the next denouce them because they say something against their political party. Believe what is proven not what the government may say. I want to see this story more fleshed out before i make a judgement on the governments actions.
But the man is not a traitor.
This is just blown out of proportion especially when compared to other states who are signatory to NPT and are guilty of spreading WMD. Pakistan is not signatory to NPT so Pak is not guilty of anything. However before we pass judgment we must keep in mind AQK has done a lot for Pak! BUT that does not mean he or any of his subordinates have the right to sell nuclear know how to any state unless it was authorized higher up. AQK has $2B in his bank account (oh really) If he does then where did it come from? Would be nice to know.
Instead of jumping up and down lets wait until the smoke clears and ignore the western media for the moment. they have nothing better to do except bark like foaming at mouth kuttas like they are. Of course no mentions of other states that are party to NPT and have proliferated 1000 times more. The first rule of what you want is asking for it, too much media coverage is also the culprit. We must hush up as this being our domestic affair and if any one is in pain then point him to the actual proliferaters and lets see what happens. President Musharraf did say that some Europeans individuals/companies must be investigated but that will happen when the cows come how. Those who are in agony are fighting a losing battle. Where there is a will there is a way those who want these toys will eventually get them by hook or crook.
What are you talking about Abdali.
We cannot ignore the Western media because it is obviously being orchestrated by their respective governments.
Already there is talk of an IAEA team in Pakistan. This is serious stuff. Only because Gen.Musharraf is officially on the US saint list, we are escaping sanctions. Don't forget that our current recovery is almost entirely due to the "halwa" we received after our U-turn on the Talibans.
About the $2 billion, how do we know its true? All Pakistani papers are carrying the same stories so its obviously leaked by people close to the govt. AQK has been responsible for purchasing a lot of components even today and it has always been no questions asked. Do you really think AQK could have done all this without COAS approving it? If so I have a bridge to sell in Brooklyn...
In 1998, if anyone had told me that Pakistan will be forced to abandon its Afghan policy, its Kashmir policy and its nuclear policy, I'd have laughed at that.
Today, we are seeing the same thing happening, under a mighty military leader.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Khilaari: *
What are you talking about Abdali.
We cannot ignore the Western media because it is obviously being orchestrated by their respective governments.
Already there is talk of an IAEA team in Pakistan. This is serious stuff. Only because Gen.Musharraf is officially on the US saint list, we are escaping sanctions. Don't forget that our current recovery is almost entirely due to the "halwa" we received after our U-turn on the Talibans.
About the $2 billion, how do we know its true? All Pakistani papers are carrying the same stories so its obviously leaked by people close to the govt. AQK has been responsible for purchasing a lot of components even today and it has always been no questions asked. Do you really think AQK could have done all this without COAS approving it? If so I have a bridge to sell in Brooklyn...
In 1998, if anyone had told me that Pakistan will be forced to abandon its Afghan policy, its Kashmir policy and its nuclear policy, I'd have laughed at that.
Today, we are seeing the same thing happening, under a mighty military leader.
[/QUOTE]
We are escaping sanction not because of Musharraf but US needs us at this time. Its that simple, there is no such thing as friends especially a US friend its “INTERSET” And who is questioning the unauthorized purchases where did you pull that from? of course when such transactions are made authorization is required. Here we are questioning the unauthorized transfer of “information” like Wen Ho Lee did at Los Alamos Labs. Did any of the scientists mail something or was it electronics transfer? Was it done with the blessing of their superiors or did they do it on their own. We may never know unless there is a public inquiry. And please don’t make baseless claims Paks nukes are not going anywhere, Not too long ago right on this forum someone like you also said Pak nukes are in Chinese custody.. LOL…. Just sit tight and watch the show Paki nukes will change hands quite a few times before the story dies down until then yes you can sell the bridge and I will pay you cash on delivery :)
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Abdali:
Instead of jumping up and down lets wait until the smoke clears and ignore the western media for the moment. they have nothing better to do...
[/QUOTE]
Exactly my point!
You have some people here who are prepared to believe some of the stuff written in the western and Pak media, if it corresponds with their political biases, yet dimiss other stuff as untrue if it does not.
Yet while condemning our own government and leaders, and make allegations based on what they want to believe, these people don't want to face upto why Libya (and Iran) betrayed our scientists and stabbed Pakistan in the back? Are not the likes of Libya the biggest traitors of them all to have not only sold out to the US, but left Pakistan in this position?
I wonder why some people won't even address these crucial points, from where it all began?
One has to be a moron of the highest order to follow the media, as if Iraqs WMD drama was not enough! need I say more. This is just blown out of proportion by the same media that was hounding Saddy about its WMD. All I have to say is just sit tight and watch this drama being played out. I agree with you in that Iran and Libya are back stabbers regardless how they recieved help from Pak.
Here is another story of US role in proliferation.
http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=1999/3/11/55955
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Abdali:
Here we are questioning the unauthorized transfer of “information” like Wen Ho Lee did at Los Alamos Labs. Did any of the scientists mail something or was it electronics transfer? Was it done with the blessing of their superiors or did they do it on their own. We may never know unless there is a public inquiry.
[/QUOTE]
Excellent point.
If people cared to read their history, instead of basing their claims on speculative news articles, and their innate political biases they would find that the cold war period (1945-1990), and even after is full of examples where weapons scientists sold knowhow and technology to the other side for large personal monetary benefit or misguided political beliefs. Now are we going to say that their (home) governments knew what was happening, about all the transactions and played a large part in them?
If we keep ignoring the media, then why bother with day to day activities. I have no political biases. I used to be Gen.Musharraf’s supporter. But we have to see what is happening today. U-Turn after U-turn and our nation’s name is dragged through the mud along with people who helped give us the deterrent.
The sheer number of stories on Pakistan, starting from late 2003 show that they are being orchestrated by governments. Who cares if they are true or not. Look at Iraq, they went to war lying all the way.
Already we have a US military person promising Osama’s and Mullah Umar’s capture. As soon as that’s done, they will escape from Afghanistan leaving it to UN troops. Then why do they need Pakistan.
That is why US media is full of anti-Pakistan stories while projecting Gen.Musharraf is made to be the one man saving Pakistan from doom. We know its nonsense but who cares.
BTW, I’m not lying about the IAEA thing. See:
IAEA team arrives in Pakistan
ISLAMABAD, February 01 (Online): A 3-member team of International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) has arrived here Saturday after their visit to Libya and Iran in connection with ongoing debriefing process on the alleged involvement of nuclear scientists in proliferation of nuclear weapons to both of these countries.
The team exchanged information with the investigation team engaged in debriefing of nuclear scientists and other officials of Khan Research Laboratories.
Well placed sources informed Online that IAEA team has got information on the transfer or sale of nuclear technology to these countries during its recently concluded visit.
The team has just arrived in Pakistan and its visit is being kept secret.
When contacted by the Online, the responsible army authorities refused to confirm or deny the reports regarding visit of the team and its engagement in Pakistan.
Scientist: Clinton Administration Gave China Top Nuclear Secrets
As I know, not much came out of those allegations as well? I am sure some people back then, based on speculative news stories, and their political views believed such allegations? Also, I am sure that when the the IAEA visited the US six years ago, some ill-informed people were prepared to believe the worst about the US nuclear capability?
IAEA Inspections of US Uranium Facility](http://www.acronym.org.uk/dd/dd21/21iaea.htm)
But these “patritiotic Pakistani’s” who are prepared to call our government and leaders ‘traitors’ based on not much more than news articles, and ongoing investigations cannot somehow address the points about the blatant treachery of Libya (and Iran) against Pakistan. Makes you wonder…?
Yep, I remember that one when there were allgations and IAEA was in US investigating. The only difference in our case is that their media howls throw the wazoo for obvious reasons. As if mirchi wala dunda was inserted… LOL…
Malik73/Abdali,
Sorry to say you guys are not getting the point.
US is a signatory to the NPT and CTBT as a Nuclear power. As a signatory, any other signatory nation can challenge the US to prove compliance, but cannot do much else.
Pakistan is NOT a signatory. The presence of IAEA means inspections of our facilities. By foreigners.
Now tell me that's nothing to worry about.
If a non-military leader has suggested IAEA inspections, he'd be shot.
^ What are you trying to say here? That Pak will hand over its nukes and dismantle its nuclear installation to IAEA!!!! Oh well then in that case I also have a bridge for sale... But its not COD.......
Abdali,
Nothing happens overnight.
Nuclear deterrence is not some child's play where you build a few bombs and put in some bunker and bas kaam khatm. You need to constantly produce fissile material and keep improving your weaponsry, by making the bombs smaller and more lethal.
When we built our bomb in the 1980s, it was based on a simple design using enriched Uranium, but the device was bigger. Then we moved on to smaller bombs which are enriched Uranium boosted by tritium. I know becase I studied physics in college and have read many books for years now. But the critical part is continuing research and constant need for nuclear fuel.
When you allow foreigners into your fissile material production facilites, that is the first step. First they will stop your nuclear fuel. Then its a long slippery slope.
Now where did you get that we allowed phorners to take a peek in our secret installations. Listen kid, Paki nukes have already exchanged a few hands after 911. First Chinese then yanks and now IAEA I am sure Santa will also get the chance soon. LOL...
Abdali,
So IAEA is coming to Pakistan to eat halwa puri and polish off some doodh patti?
IAEA is the enforcement arm of the NPT/CTBT.
They are coming to question the culprits not to ask for our nukes. I won't be surprised you spread the rumor of Paki nukes in US hands. But then ask me if I care I have heard plenty stories right here on this forum. As a matter of fact according to some Pak should not have been on the map today..
IAEA, Pakistan Seek to Smash Nuclear Underground
DAVOS, Switzerland (Reuters) - The head of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) said Saturday the agency was working with Pakistan to trace and cripple a sophisticated underworld thought to be helping countries with clandestine nuclear weapons programs.
Abdali,
Please don't put words in my mouth.
I have also seen people argue about the infallibility of our nuclear establishment, strategic depth policy and many other things.
As to "IAEA, Pakistan Seek to Smash Nuclear Underground", I submit that this only goes to substantiate my point. We have no business with the IAEA when it comes to nuclear weapons. This whole saga has just opened the door for them.