Do you ever wonder, where God is? God, no God, or Correct God (merged)

[USResident]

Re: Do you ever wonder, where God is?

@HumanLikeYou

You misunderstand - I made it clear that I equate actions like terrorism and the IMPERIALIST actions of nations like Nazi Germany - you should read more carefully. The allied forces were legitimately combatting the imperialist actions of Germany. Sure, I agree with you that terrorism doesn't take just one form. However, it's terrorism's most recent manifestation, as implemented by Islamic extremists, that we're discussing here.

I can agree that these so-called terrorists are one of the most recent manifestation of terrorism however would you not also however that a lot of these have been bred through the western economic and social policies i.e. terrorism in other forms other than use of force. Taliban has its roots in US policy towards USSR. Al-Qaeda, has its roots in US medling in Saudi internal affairs. Western social and economic policies towards muslim countries have bred this new manifestation of terror. Now to fight it they are commiting acts of terrorism themselves.

@HumanLikeYou

The Iraqi insurgency are not defending themselves from aggressors. On a daily basis they are killing many innocent Iraqis. In any case - **you obviously don't read **my posts through before you begin responding, do you? Because I stated that I do not support the American action in Iraq. Really, the western forces should leave, and allow the extremist factions to initiate the inevitable bloodbath of a civil war which will follow, with many innocents killed; after which no doubt yet another autocratic/theocratic regime like Hussein's will be installed. You're quite right, muslims seem to prefer to live in such oppressive regimes ... though you are an interesting exception to this rule, perhaps there's something about the permissive life in the west that you enjoy then? Why don't you return to the middle east if you have such contempt for western values and culture?

You cannot prove the insurgency acts of terrorism in Iraq are being called by Iraqi people. For some reason I think a lot of these Islamist organizations, which accept responsibility of these acts are aligned with the occupying powers and not the Iraqi people. So then the other examples you agree with, that they are defending themselves, their means may not be justified but it is in defense. Reprisals for being oppressed. I do not care about western values or their culture as long is it does not bother me or get in my way of life. If it does then the argument about having liberties and freedom is null and void. If American people want to dig their grave in hell then that is their free will and choice. I will still try to deliver the message from God to them by peaceful means. The reason I am here is because Yes there is very little corruption that touches the generla populace here as compared to my own ethnic country. I end up violating even the basic principles of Islam when I live in my own country, which I do not here. However to say I do not feel prejudice here because I am a muslim is wrong. Being a muslim is soon heading towards like being a third class citizen in this country. This indicates that people here and policy makers here detest Islam. They have never even tried to agree with our values that we practice in everyday life. The culture followed here is not what their own biblical beliefes teach them.

@HumanLikeYou

Any dictionary will give you a definition. Here's one: 1 a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections

And the values that will be adopted in such a system will be based on what values the people uphold. Do you agree?

@HumanLikeYou

Sure - nobody says the implementation of democracy (rule by the people) instantly brings about perfect order in society. People are imperfect and certainly corruption exists in India, in the USA, too. However, unlike the hereditary autocracies / theocracies and martial regimes of the middle east, in a democracy, the people **have a voice, and the people can effect change. People do not live in fear. People have rights which are enshrined in law, and protected. **The people can agitate for reform and replace an incompetent government. Such a mechanism does not exist in a country ruled by the sword.

And Islam allows the people to have a voice as well. This is the misconception you have. The only difference is we would follow a set of values, which are in accordance to the Quran and Sunnah. If your ruler should deviate from them then the populace can over throw the ruler. In Islam no one is exempt from justice or above the law. Give me an example, of when you say a country ruled by the sword. And also prove to me that the laws of that country are in accordance with the Quran and Sunnah. In all the methodologies running rampant in theoracies/autocracies/hereditary and martial regimes, show me one in which there is a 100% fulfillment of Islamic values. Actually are lot of things you like in your democracy are already embodied in Islamic principles. Since you do not know much about Islam you think Islam is hostile to democracy. What I don't like in your arguments is you keep making general media statements and yet cannot link any example with scripture that supports your example. If I say the west has abondoned their Christian beliefs I can prove it. To say religion and state cannot go hand in hand is incorrect. If you have the proper religious beliefs I believe you will not find any hinderance. Secular states cannot find any values in their religions, which is why they are trying to pick and choose and form there own set of values. Muslims on the other hand can find guidance and values in their religion, which is why they do not need to embrace secular values.

@HumanLikeYou

Let me add that some middle eastern states have embraced democracy to some extent - most notably, Lebanon and Egypt, and Turkey as I mentioned before. You would do well to appreciate the freedoms you enjoy in the United States - think about it, you are completely free to criticise the government, to protest, to say whatever you like against the existing status quo. You can even let off some steam and burn the US flag in some states ... try doing that in a muslim country.

Again, same sentence. Freedoms. Give examples. You can critisize in Islam as well, I can agree that current muslim rulers do not like that and prevent it however Islam allows it however you must realize the consequences of it before indulging in it. If it will destabilise your country, cause deaths, violence, make you susceptible to an enemy attack then it should not be done. Everything has a context and limitation. If done within it nothing wrong with it. Islam allows you to change the status quo as well if you find it against the Islamic values. Now burning the flag is simply to say you are disloyal to the country. Some actions should be realized. There are better ways to express your disagreement with something than disrespect the very country that provides you.

@HumanLikeYou

Your definition is not at odds with mine. But you´re not getting the point. "Fundamentalism", in the pejorative sense which I intend, refers to the trend within religions to *resist modernisation, **and to insist on adherence to the **literal interpretation of core texts *(such as the Bible or Q'uran). Obviously, where these literal interpretations come into conflict with other groups in society - take for example the intolerance towards alternative sexuality implied in Biblical / Q'uranic scriptures, or more topically the exhortations to violent action in the Q'uran - fundamentalism becomes a problem. So that´s my point.

Give examples of modernisation. What is alternative sexuality? Please provide examples here. Your response is very vague and lacks any substance without examples.

@HumanLikeYou

Certainly it's necessary to understand the causes of terrorism. The fact that we should consider all factors when discussing the phenomenon of teenage births in the USA and other countries does not mean that we shouldn't also consider all factors when discussing the phenomenon of terrorism. I don't recall suggesting that at all. However - I AM suggesting that muslim nations/communities are NOT trying to address these. Nor even acknowledging them. That's what we're discussing here. Focus.

I will agree with this. Muslims nations are turning a blind eye to their internal problems. Blaming does not achieve anything. Here is something which many non-muslims fail to realize. We don't need another system to make us realize what is wrong and eradicate it. Islam provides us with the necessary character building to eradicate these issues. Our problem is we are not following it. Does this explain to you why we do not like the word democracy shoved down our throats. When we know we have something that works we do not need to be finding other solutions. What we need to do is start implementing that solution. And if you have respect for muslims then you should respect the things we dislike and not try to impose them on us.

@HumanLikeYou

Honestly, mate, you really need to make sure you understand what's being said before you respond. Otherwise we're just talking at cross-purposes. I said that the HINDU FAITH fits in perfectly well with democratic principles, not reverence for the elderly.

So does Islamic faith. You have a misconception that democracy cannot work with Islamic values and principles.

@HumanLikeYou

"all these values" - which values? Contrast the legal system in secular democracies which outlaws murder in any circumstances, and asserts the equality of all genders/religions/races under the law; with that of Islam, which permits murder in certain circumstances, and which treats women and "infidels" like dirt. Quite agreeable if you're a muslim male, I'm sure.

I would like to know under which circumstance murder is allowed in Islam. Murder is not the same as capital punishment or killing in war. Islam does not tell us to treat women like dirt however muslims male have a tendency for this due to cultural trends not Islamic trends. I hope you can distinguish between culture and Islam in muslim countries. However I think you cannot which is why you made this statement.

@HumanLikeYou

Well, it's gratifying to know that you at least won't stick a knife into the next muslim when he / she does something to offend the faith. I suppose this should be required information on a first date between muslims - "if I ever give up the faith, will you kill me, darling?".

See when you get the right answer you still try to mock at it. And you think we are sick.

@HumanLikeYou

I provided you with the names of 3 clerics, and the names of those organisations with which they're affiliated. The only claim I made was that such clerics exist, and that they support extremism and encourage it. And the issue is that muslims either deny this (as you are doing) or ignore it. If someone brings a charge against you you are obliged to defend yourself against the claim if it is false - or acknowledge it and do something about it if it is true.

You completely ignored what I had asked. Give me clerics from the mainstream thought of muslims. Ones whose credbility is not questioned. I can google out some clerics for other religions in the same way for other countries. What matters is do these clerics have any part in running their countries, NO. Your argument has no value here.

@HumanLikeYou

So, do you claim that no muslim clerics have supported and celebrated extremist actions, and encouraged others to do the same? And if you acknowledge that they have, then why do muslims not censure these individuals?

Freedom of speech. I thought you supported this concept and its democratic value. Lets see the hypocrisy come out here now.

@HumanLikeYou

No - civilian deaths in war are a terrible consequence of the conflict, but in general, civilians are not the intended **targets. As I said - terrorism is the **intentional killing of innocents.

My opinion is that in the recent Lebanese conflict, Israel acted to defend herself against a terrorist organisation which has the stated aim of destroying the nation of Israel. If Israel **wanted **to target civilians, there would be very few civilians left walking the streets of Beirut and Tyre now. Israel does not want conflict. If the surrounding Arab nations accept her right to exist, and cease the Jihad against her, she will not harm them.

**I DO AGREE WITH YOU THAT **Israel was unecessarily heavy-handed, and ruthless; and willing to risk the lives of innocent Lebanese civilians. There was also no need to damage the Lebanese infrastructure, the airport, and to cause environmental damage like the oil spillage off the coast. These are terribly sad outcomes and I think Israel has blundered.

However, I disagree with your statements regarding Hezbollah killing "mostly soldiers". Hezbollah launched rockets into civilian areas, many hundreds of them, civilians **were **killed, were you not watching the news at the time? killing of innocents. And I will acknowledge that there may be cases of intentional killing by armies (including western armies) - and yes, I would consider those acts terrorist acts.

Give a number of Israeli civilian deaths compared to Lebanese civilian deaths. You might not want to do this otherwise you will loose the argument here. Its easy to monkey around when statements are general nature. I'm also glad you realize some evil on Israels part though and do not turn a blind eye to it. Why should the Arab nations accept Israels right in exist in their midst. Why doesn't any other country offer territory for Israel.

@HumanLikeYou

On the contrary, religious faith is not inconsistent with secular government. For example, the number of practising Catholics in Latin American countries remains very high. The number of Hindus in India remains very high. Of course, due to the fact that secular democracies tend to permit personal freedoms which theocracies deny, individuals are at liberty to choose NOT to believe in a particular faith, or to choose another, or to choose none at all! So if you are saying that being a muslim is inconsistent with living in a secular regime because muslims expect everybody in their country to be muslim, then sure, I understand exactly where you´re coming from with "losing their religious identity" !!! What is it about freedom that frightens you so much, my friend?

What I don't like is that you are rejecting God's laws and values. Let me ask you something, what is it about your faith that you want to free yourself of?

[USResident]

Re: Do you ever wonder, where God is?

@HumanLikeYou

You really DON´T read, do you? Go back and read what I said before you respond with such "extremism". Then please apologise. I read everything you write very thoroughly and carefully before I respond, please give me the same treatment.

Sir, I am reading. You are not.

You said we think terrorist acts commited are justified. I said they are not.
You said the terrorist claim to be muslims. I said people carried out such actions cannot be muslim.
You said how do I know that all muslims are not terrorist. I said you sterotyped a few people who claim to be muslim with all of us. We condemn them.
If the security agencies of the government is not able to find them and root them out then what do you expect a common muslim person living his life to do. Get commando training and start looking for them. An ordinary person can only condemn using words. Those who are charged with finding them are trying and when they do they'll have their fair share of punishment. USA went to war to find two men OBL and Mullah Umar, they failed and your ranting that we don't do enough.
There is one way to root them out is all muslims stick to guns and start hunting them down. I'm sure non-muslims would go on a ****tin% marathon if they learned every muslim in the woirld is now armed and dangerous as compared to a select evasive few before.

[Dushwari]

Re: Do you ever wonder, where God is? God, no God, or Correct God (merged)

Oh bhai,

please
no fights

i tell u what
Allah means no compensation in religion

so each to his own ...