many of these are admirable suggestions, but i think the debate misses the point. There is almost an overwhelming support for democracy in Pakistan..there is also an overwhelming interest in politics in Pakistan (if not politicians).
However Pakistans core problem is a mentality of a certain type pf people (the majority of whom can be described as establishment supporters) who do not believe in treating other Pakistanis as human beings. They simply espouse authoritarianism and force to solve internal problems. Simply put: they think the lathi and the goli is the solution to everything, they condemn those who speak of rights as traitors, they often carry the old racist stereotypes close to heart (Bengalis can't fight, all Baloch are controlled by Sardars, all sindhis are meek, all mohajirs are crafty etc etc) and believe democracy doesn't suit the people of Pakistan.
If you identify and oppose those people whether civilian or military, you will get stable and cohesive democracy in Pakistan.
For democracy to flourish in Paksitan we need to strengthen our institutions, only than can true democracy take roots. Institutions like a true independent judiciary,an independent election commission which can restore people's faith in the process, an independent press and an accountability process. These are the basic fundamentals to promoting democracy in the country. Everything else will follow. All this talk about personalities will disappear if the system and institutions are working properly and these people are held accountable. No one will be able to attack the judiciary be it Nawaz or Mush. That is what is required, the strengthening and independence of these vital institutions. A start has been made and lets hope the progress continues.
When people talk about democracy they should also know that principle of democracy is:
Work-free class cannot become leader of working class.
Factory owner could not become leader of factory workers
Landlord farmers could not become leader of landless farmers.
Landlord cannot become leader of tenants
Teacher cannot become leader of students.
Etc. etc. etc … well:
People who have bias values or arebias (or discriminates) due to any connections (be that religion, gender (male/female), nationalism, ethnicity, provincialism, race, colour, etc) cannot become leaders of people of with other values or connections that is different to them. [That means, a person that talk about race, gender, ethnicity, provincialism, culture, religion etc in politics (and value that) … could not become leader of people that are different to him in race, ethnicity, province, culture, religion etc].
BB or NS or for that matter most of Pakistani politicians (who are rich and powerful, gunda of their areas, believe on superiority on basis of their background … etc, etc, etc) cannot become leaders of poor Pakistanis (who are mostly downtrodden, deprived and exploited).
Those that ignore the above and talk about democracy are actually not talking about democracy but are talking about democrashiit.
When people talk about democracy they should also know that principle of democracy is:
Work-free class cannot become leader of working class.
Factory owner could not become leader of factory workers
Landlord farmers could not become leader of landless farmers.
Landlord cannot become leader of tenants
Teacher cannot become leader of students.
Etc. etc. etc … well:
I don't know. When I left Pakistan the situation was that every civilian if they wanted to, they could have joined to become Fauji and after retirement every fauji use to become civilian. At present I am in UK and in UK situation is same. To me, Fauji is a working class job just like teachers, police officers, custom officers, people working in judiciary, or for that matter factory workers or farm workers … ect. Has the situation changed in Pakistan? What do you think? I don’t know if it has. Please let me know.
As far as rich and powerful are concerned (I mean most who are in politics), they do not work for any one, any organizations, institutions or whatever. They are different class of people. They are landlords, employers, owners of organizations or people where many work as their employees. They are there where they are because of their birth fortune than due to their work.
Though there are exceptions. These exceptions are those some that have become rich today because of corruption of their parents (like Gahur Ayub and Ijaz-ul-Haq) ... or those who are gold diggers and married rich and powerful to get to this level riding on their spouse wealth and position (like Imran Khan and Zardari) … and then there are those that have achieve this status using religion and Chanda money (like Fazlu and Qazi) ... etc.
Nevertheless, one thing is common and that is, none who are in Pakistani politics are working class or depend on money they earn or depend on someone else for their survival (as most western politicians do, depend on donations given to their political party). All these Pakistani politicians have made politics their career and they use politics to loot, plunder and exploit poor, thats all.
When people talk about democracy they should also know that principle of democracy is:
Work-free class cannot become leader of working class.
Factory owner could not become leader of factory workers
Landlord farmers could not become leader of landless farmers.
Landlord cannot become leader of tenants
Teacher cannot become leader of students.
Etc. etc. etc … well:
People who have bias values or are bias (or discriminates) due to any connections (be that religion, gender (male/female), nationalism, ethnicity, provincialism, race, colour, etc) cannot become leaders of people of with other values or connections that is different to them. [That means, a person that talk about race, gender, ethnicity, provincialism, culture, religion etc in politics (and value that) … could not become leader of people that are different to him in race, ethnicity, province, culture, religion etc].
BB or NS or for that matter most of Pakistani politicians (who are rich and powerful, gunda of their areas, believe on superiority on basis of their background … etc, etc, etc) cannot become leaders of poor Pakistanis (who are mostly downtrodden, deprived and exploited).
Those that ignore the above and talk about democracy are actually not talking about democracy but are talking about democrashiit.
Good description Sa1eem!
genuine democracy starts at the grass roots level ( so efforts must be made on that front as Aliyish mentioned) but how to do away with the crop at the top (the feudal, industrial, military nexus that FOL alluded to). We have a 'top down' approach/system working in our country since the past 50 plus years. The bottom up approach will be a dream come true but are we ready for that. Much depends on our diminishing 'middle-class' which unfortunately isn't as vibrant, active and politically inclined as is the case in India.
Exactly Minerva, our middle class is more careless than affordable for us and the lower classes are too powerless and ignorant as well as misguided. The bottom up approach is definitely very important and unfortunately the leaders, allegedly democratic or dictatorial both don't heed this too much. The irony is, BB self-proclaimed ultimate savior of democratic process these days demanded the govt for abolition of the local body govt system started in 2001 as part of the deal. How democratic of her. Shows how close to heart these leaders actually hold democracy when it comes to action more than lip service. And with such motives, these leaders can never deliver.
We need to start by completely reorganizing the army. The current setup of hundreds of generals doing absolutely nothing needs to go. The army needs to be put at the mercy of the people's elected representatives and not the other way around.
Khek, but before putting *anything *(let alone something as vital and valuable as the Army) at the mercy of the people's so-called elected representatives, lets first make sure that those who the people elect as representatives are also infact at the people's mercy; the way democracy actually prescribes, and not the other way round with the people being at their mercy once the polls are over, as has been the case during Pakistan's so-called democratic times.
However Pakistans core problem is a mentality of a certain type pf people (the majority of whom can be described as establishment supporters) who do not believe in treating other Pakistanis as human beings. They simply espouse authoritarianism and force to solve internal problems. Simply put: they think the lathi and the goli is the solution to everything, they condemn those who speak of rights as traitors, they often carry the old racist stereotypes close to heart (Bengalis can't fight, all Baloch are controlled by Sardars, all sindhis are meek, all mohajirs are crafty etc etc) and believe democracy doesn't suit the people of Pakistan.
If you identify and oppose those people whether civilian or military, you will get stable and cohesive democracy in Pakistan.
Interesting sum up Zakk! You've described one type of ppl as well as many diff types. But one thing is for sure, and you're right, as long as ppl don't identify the ppl in power with motives etc that hamper democratic process there cant be democracy. But i feel even more imp is the awakening of the people to understand their power, their responsibility in being aware, choosing the right people, holding them accountable, opposing them full force against all wrong actions small or big right there then. Once the people seize that power there can be nothing but democracy, but our ppl haven't the grip so far.
Absolutely Ehsan bhai, but the cycle I guess will have to start from the people getting a grip first, holding not just the Pres, PM, Ministers indirectly accountable, but also those people running the institutions that keep check, judiciary, media, EC, NAB, NSC, even Army. The steering chords shall run through the institutions and their leaders to the national leaders and their accountability.
I always feel the first step has to be an awakening at the bottom.
The day a poor man, or a lower-middle class man or a middle-class man realizes that he should be in control and those ruling should be accountable, and the day these common men/women; we all unite, prepare to act and raise voice in unison against corruption, it will be the first day of transfer of power to the people. But, this first step may take another few years before the next step could set in with the right results.***** The next more important step which could go fatal if not taken right is decreasing ignorance, raising awareness, improving literacy thus getting better equipped to elect the right people. Third step would be constant awareness, struggle for equal justice, crushing all corruption right in the beginning, punishing the corrupt strictly and surely. Having strong institutions, holding their leaders accountable, who in turn keep honest checks on national leaders and then once step 3 sets in, it has to be constant, if it derails, the whole setup shall destabilize again.
**
***Some might point that this step has initiated recently. Perhaps yes, but step 2 is being taken in haste, which messes it up, and that's one of the reasons why I want the current setup to continue further. This newfound awareness, if it indeed is that, should continue and improve this setup first. Too much haste in getting rid of them and most importantly messing up step 2 by bringing the tried, tested, so-called democratic actually undemocratic criminals back by supporting them just because they are the only option other than this govt and due to being tired of this govt like an impatient kid is a fatal mistake. And of course if step 2 messes up there is no going to step 3 and no hope for stability.
I always feel the first step has to be an awakening at the bottom.
That is very true, people don't realize the value of their vote but there is a reason for that too. People vote for someone who then goes to "assembly" and there is no 'return' for the people then people get disappointed, then the other round of circus begins (assembly dissolved, re-election) people vote again and nothing comes out of the process for them.... people disappointed again...
People have to be 'awakened' as well as people need to be given 'accountability' system both in 'political party' level as well as 'government' level so people can check their 'leaders'. Without 'awakening' and no accountability will become dangerous.
*****Some might point that this step has initiated recently. Perhaps yes, but step 2 is being taken in haste, which messes it up, and that's one of the reasons why I want the current setup to continue further. This newfound awareness, if it indeed is that, should continue and improve this setup first. Too much haste in getting rid of them and most importantly messing up step 2 by bringing the tried, tested, so-called democratic actually **undemocratic criminals back by supporting them **just because they are the only option other than this govt and due to being tired of this govt like an impatient kid is a fatal mistake. And of course if step 2 messes up there is no going to step 3 and no hope for stability.
Thats where the "current setup" failed, they let these people escape and failed to prove their crimes, made "accords" with them, the 'return' of the criminals is because of criminals in place.
Well, democracy could not be imposed or given. It comes. What I know, I think that Pakistanis have not taken even their first step for democracy (or it is possible that I might be wrong).
Just like people make their union (for instance workers union, teachers union, student unions, etc), people should make their own party. They should contribute in that party fund, have their own party constitution, and elect their President, general secretary and other office bearers, in same way they elect their President, general secretary and other office bearers of their unions. People should make sure that instead of looking for big landlords and industrialist (as some worker unions looked for and selected Z A Bhutto in late 60s), they should be led by people of their own party who are suppose to be like them (average Pakistani).
This is how political parties should get established. Once established, this party has to attract people from all walks of life and from through out Pakistan. Then they fight for democracy and contest (using the money coming from contribution of their workers), and if that party than comes to power, people in that party would be bound to work for the people they really represent and they would be answerable to the people too.
This thing could not happen as it happens these days, where a selfish lone ranger or group of thugs join together and start a party giving fancy name to their party, but with real purpose to loot, plunder and exploit the masses, and then masses jump on their wagon to get them to power, and once these thugs come to power they loot, plunder, and exploit the masses.
^ Completely wrong. Name one instance where democracy happened by itself...it doesn't just 'come'. It is ushered in by accomplished statesmen who lead the people. For such statement to be so, they need to have earned people's trust. and such trust has to have been based on 'good' traits rather than negative traits.
Good traits are things such as social work, industrial / business, educational, revolutionary...combined with some sacrifice. Bad traits are communal politics, religious clanism and other 'negative' groupisms.
Pakistan has never had great statemen that achieved leadership based on good traits. It has become progressively worst. As Fraudia pointed out recently, in the past 2 decades, even mediocre statesmen haven't come about.
That has left a void and the crappy religious and military guys have filled the vacuum. And they therefore have fostered the negative traits.
Even the little breadth dignity that people felt as you can see, was due to somebody standing up for a good trait (CJ), not that he is a saint or anything - I am just pointing out that leadership requires some accomplishment and some sacrifice (taking risks for a good trait can also be considered a sacrifice).
each person must change, every family, community, and then the nation on the whole. the culture at work must change, in private lives of families and with friends. the subtle changes in socio-economic modality will provide a real opportunity a scalable system whereby state's politics is monitored by the people who directly get affected by the policies.
public service is then an honest commitment to be made otherwise it will be always ineffective and in fact destructive govt. that will have the reigns of the state and a bad quality of living of its citizens.
industrial and IT advancement is good and required with better planning for the infrastructure, amenities for civilians, minimized educational class disparity or difference can achieve that.
better economic prospects for all citizens can control the economic class disparity in all its forms, from social justice to individual growth in wealth which in turn can positively skew the national per capita GDP.
as far as religion is concerned, it can be still both idealized in a state as a guideline and practiced successfully, but it must not allow for self claimed political agendas in the guise of religious teachings.
education and health are two main sectors through which, immense positive changes can be introduced. this can happen if everybody is involved with a serious concern about creating a social system within the country to make it comfortable for all citizens.
and just to reiterate - democracy does not have to be fashioned after another country's models. what will work in Pakistan may or not work in America and vice versa. people from Pakistan, both living in there now and those living abroad, should have a well-reasoned, fair & independent system of running our country on fair and equitable social, civic and national context. at least then people can call it their own!
This statement shows a typical attitude of lazy intellectualism. In other words you are aksing
Where is Eesa AH or Moosa AH or Ibrahim AH for Pakistan?
FYI. Eeas Moosa Ibrahim or Mohammad pbuh are rare occurrences. Most of the time the leadership is asserted by mid level leaders of industry, academia, and farming. Those are the people who out of devotion for country or devotion of money or both, work tirelessly day and night and keep the country well fed and clothed and keep the infrastructure in working order.
If you are looking at CJ, lawyers etc. you are looking at a tamasha (circus). Don't get mesmarized by non-players and wanna-be leaders.
True leaders are Mansha group owners, Pakistani farmers and people like Syed Babar Ali (LUMS founder), Agha Khan (AKU founder) and the list goes on.
I think notwithstanding current political turmoil Pakistan democratic future looks good and for 2 reasons. Free media and judiciary, but biggest obstacle to democracy in Pakistan is army. Until we find the way to control this monster democracy in Pakistan will remain a distance dream.
No we've had democracy for a straight 10 years 1989 to 1999; it's achievable, but how do we make sure it's not a rotten version. Because ppl hadnt quite found the bliss they look for when they had democracy and were more than welcoming to the Army and its commander in 99.
So the system can be had, whats more imp is, the system's being clean. How do we do that? And no Mush alone cant do it.
So the system can be had, whats more imp is, the system's being clean. How do we do that? And no Mush alone cant do it.
Wait....he said the exact opposite in Oct. 99 and has continued to assert the same since then. Why do we not believe our leader now? Is it because he failed to carry out any political reform or is it because he really actually failed to carry out any political reform?
Like I say, he tried, and his failures were not ONLY because of his mistakes or short-comings, the larger share is contributed by the unrest, conspiracies, political sacrifices, manipulations and the madness in the system prevailing for 6 decades. So how is he alone responsible? He said he'd clean it, and we ALL believed it, but today when he hasn't been able yet, also take a look at the forces making everything impossible for him. Not since Mar 2007 only, but since 2001/2002.
U know, the political parties can make a whole lot better arguments/excuse why they could not deliver. But at the end of the day..thats what they r, excuses.
Musharraf is no different from ANYONE as far as politics is concerned.