Defination of a sahabi -according to Twelver shias

Society Religion & Philosophy
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BOY-NICE brother thank you for the references , you defination is surprisingly similar to the one most commonly used by sunnis as well.Incontrast to other definations like those of ibn mussaiyab which fell out of favor.

re: that specific narration there are different opinions I agree, but what amazes me how can such a narration find its way in the prestigious books of 12ers.My Intention was not to repeat this here but some people here just bombarded me with stale arguments totally irrelevant to my question and this pissed me off.

anyways another question what does kulyani have to say about sahaba / does he also have the same defination ?

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I am reading Allama Majlisi book Hayatul Quloob thesedays. I m only 1/4 way though it atm and I assume he wud touch the subject of the sahabas later in the book as this book starts from prophet Adam to our nabi and then the masomeen. You can find this book at ziaraat.com

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ok let me clarify the things more. See Shia ulema have never bothered to go into the issue of the definition of Sahabi. Since Sahabism is kinda root of Ahle-Sunnah thus there isnt any surprise if they have a lot of material written on this matter starting from its definition. On the contrary as you know Shias have always been paying importance to the text coming from the Imams of Ahlulbayt [as], thus what sunch and such Sahabi used to say and what is the definition of a Sahabi...these questions were never got chance to come up, as they didnt have any importance. So even if the definition of a Sahabi given by some Shia scholars happens to be similar to what Sunnies have, it doesnt really matter since the Sahaba who committed some objectionable acts, their acts are criticized by Shias irrespective of the 'definition'... like such and such person did this and that...so the question of 'definition' never really came up. Same goes with Yaqub Kuleni, he has compiled a book of narrations of Ahlulbayt [as], he never bothered to go into the issue as to what should be the definition of a Sahabi, since it has never been of importance to Shias.
I dont know if I am being clear here or not :S

As for that tradition of bulk of Sahaba becoming murtdad, having such narrations in one's book is not a question anymore when we see strange type of things found in both Shia and Sunni books. If we were to accept everything just because they fond place in the respective books, we might get ruined. Thats why its always better to consult the ulema about every issue so that they can tell us the conclusion from their larger prespective.

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Are you sure its not Sheikh Baqar Majlisi?

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my apologies for that and thnx for pointing tht out. I gt confused by the names. Apologies again.

And u r right abt the sahabas there. Since sunni mudhahibs have their root going back to the ashaabs, they have done much work on the rijal relatated to the shaykhayn etc. There is a lot of glorification and denting painting done in history in order to make the biggest bidat of Islam- khilafat- seem legal and part of Islam.

The general systematic trend is to deglorify the prophet and his family and somehow try to glorifying the other non deservant lot. (This may be a lil off-topic but on the arab satellite there is a program done by a christian father called Zakaria Botrous who totally blasts islam and persistently insults the prophet by quoting these traditions made by the enemies of Islam. These r the same traditions that were manaufactured to damage the status of the Prophet and his family. Take a look here: http://youtube.com/watch?v=mpsWnbApBNw&feature=related)

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Re: Defination of a sahabi -according to Twelver shias

Nusairee, I dont want to derail this thread but your criticism is rather harsh
and sorry to say but typical 12er propoganda

ahle sunnah scholars come in all kinds , some had a nasibi slant like ibn taymiyyah , ibn kathir
others like hakim niyshapuri had a pro-shia stance
generally speaking north african and syrian scholars are anti-Ali or anti-Alid
but Iraqi ahle sunnah scholars are more pro-Ali or Alid with exceptions [e.g abu hanifa and many kufan sunni jurists were largely sympathetic and supportive of Alid revolts like those of Zayd b Ali , muhammad b ibrahim etc the "forgotten" karbalas]

also remember that ibn hanbal who was staunchly anti-shia SECTS ] was definately not anti-Ali
its his famous saying that sahih hadith about fadhail of Ali are more numerous than any companion.
Their criticism of shia SECTS should not be equated to neccesarily criticsm of ALi his sons or his followers.

There are many nasibi narraters in sunni rijal but so are there many reliable shia narraters in their rijal books.

BOY NICE bro thanks for the reply inshallah I will discuss the issues u raised a little later

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Re: Defination of a sahabi -according to Twelver shias

^ u know whats harsher is when people write that Hinda was mominae aale quraysh and Abu Sufyan a momin.

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Re: Defination of a sahabi -according to Twelver shias

^ listen buddy abu sufyan and his clan after "accepting" islam were by defination sahabis
now they were at the bottom of the ladder thats why they were called Tulaqa or "freed ones" by muhajireen & ansar.Now if they had behaved like good muslims afterwards every thing would have worked out and islamic history very different.
In due course of time they seized power transforming the arab tribal meritocracy to arab imperialism akin to romans/sassanians.
The muhajireen & ansar unfortunately did not have the unity to stand up against them or even completely understand the extent of their plots. They realized it too late thats why their heroic [but isolated] stands at karbala [banu hashim],Harra [ansar]and Makkah [ibn zubayr] were disastrous failures in the short term.After wiping out this islamic elite the ummayyads felt they had permanently restored "order" but these failures only strenghtened the resolve of the pious to resist and leading this were the jurists and scholars who despite their outward acceptance of these kings permanently checked their authority in religious affairs.That is why today islam can still boast of strong juristic traditions dating back to Prophet and what most muslims believe were rightly guided caliphs.And despite going through a dark age in which the most debauched managed to become caliphs their influence did not seep into the religion itself.

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Re: Defination of a sahabi -according to Twelver shias

^i rather like your idealistic take on the events buddy but unfrtntly things didn't quite get out of the gutter as clean as may b u r trying to suggest.

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Re: Defination of a sahabi -according to Twelver shias

^ what u call idealistic is what is the bigger picture , now if u want to dwell on a extremely revisionist version of history than its ur choice.Speaking of getting out of gutter , after the martyrdom of tawwabun and Mukhtar the history of intra-shia sectarian conflict is not that rosy either.

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Re: Defination of a sahabi -according to Twelver shias

^NO. Every Muslim should consider 'idealistic' what was ordered by Allah and his messenger. That is to follow Allahs' book Quran, his messenger and his messengers' Ahlay Bayt. Looking towards the ppl who got us in the gutter will only get us in the gutter and nowhere else.

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jst chking my new signature :)

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and how do we follow ahle bayt did they leave any books with us ? NO so we rely on narrations from them , for that we need rijal for narraters

what 12ers might think are authentic narrations from ahlebayt might be considered forgeries by sunnis as they consider nararters unreliable and vice versa ...so its not as simple as this

as much as u like to avoid it , u cannot avoid this debate on reliability of narraters and jurists

yOuR aTtEnDeNcE PlZ!!!
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Re: Defination of a sahabi -according to Twelver shias

^ i agree and cetainly think this issue is an important one because how could people like Abu Hurayra, Abu Sufyan, Son of Aas become source of hadiths? Hind becomes momina aale Quraysh and muawiya and yazdid and the likes become Radi Allah Ta'lah? Unfortunately ppl didnt utilise the ilm of the Ahlay Bayt and what was passed on too was destroyed at every opportunity given, eg Shaykhayn were anti-hadith and threatened people against propogating hadiths, Allama Tusi had almost his whole collection thrown in the river, Al Azhar had its library burnt by Salahuddin's men etc.

Quran has called a group of people purified ones and demanded their love. Rasulullah has set the benchmark and said that the sign of a momin is love for 'Ali and the sign of a munafiq is hatred of 'Ali. So why even bother with the likes mentioned above when their ill intentions towards Islam and hate for Imam Ali and Ahlay Bayt is well proven from history.

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Re: Defination of a sahabi -according to Twelver shias

Sahabi in Quran and according to Shia
Sura Yusuf Ayat 39
2 Mushriks in jail with HAzrat Yusaf AS and Quran use the word Suhabi for them which proves tht there is no need of Emaan to be a Sahabi.

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[quote]
Unfortunately ppl didnt utilise the ilm of the Ahlay Bayt and what was passed on too was destroyed at every opportunity given, eg Shaykhayn were anti-hadith and threatened people against propogating hadiths, Allama Tusi had almost his whole collection thrown in the river, Al Azhar had its library burnt by Salahuddin's men etc.
[/quote]

the shakhyan did not do any persecution of ahlulbayt from all mainstream historical accounts.Infact sayyidna umar sent senoir companions to various regions to propogate islam better in newly conquered regions.This actually encouraged hadith narration [even if the shakhyan were themselves skeptical about it]
as far as later times are considered shias and sunnis oppressed each other depending on who was in power.shias being in minority obviously suffered much more.

[quote]
Quran has called a group of people purified ones and demanded their love. Rasulullah has set the benchmark and said that the sign of a momin is love for 'Ali and the sign of a munafiq is hatred of 'Ali. So why even bother with the likes mentioned above when their ill intentions towards Islam and hate for Imam Ali and Ahlay Bayt is well proven from history
[/quote]

thats why this hadith is well documented in sunni hadith works as well from multiple sources.But sayyidna Ali cannot be used as the ONLY source of hadith cuz otherwise you are totally disregarding the other contribution of sahaba in spreading islam.
with regards to the tulaqa u mentioned above they are a very minor source of hadith.Abu huraira being the exception obviously, but not all of his hadith are politically damaging to the Alid cause either.[e.g abu huraira narrated ghadeer tradition and traditions in honor of Hasan b Ali at his funeral]
But other sahaba who were friends & allies of Ali are also very important sources of sunni hadith. Abdullah b abbas, abu saeed khudri and jabir b abdullah each have narrated over 1000 hadith each.Not to mention other smaller contributions by many other sahaba and tabaeen.
Even many senoir 12er narraters like hisham ,
zurara b ayan ,jabir b yazid also come under criticism from even 12er rijal sources [mainly for deviating in their views from the later imams] so its not like your chain of transmissions are impeccable.

In conclusion I wud say that sunni hadith history is far from one big enterprise concerned with turning out anti-ahlulbayt hadith as their critics like to think.
It has its share of nasibi and shia influences.In earlier times with ummayyad & abbassid repression the nasibi influences pre-dominated but in later times there is a wide acceptance of pro-shia traditions and the official line of ahle sunnah swung widely in favor of Alids.And Ali went from being the cursed and vilifed usurper of uthman which was muawiyah's propoganda] to the fourth rightly guided caliph for sunnis.

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Re: Defination of a sahabi -according to Twelver shias

[quote]
Same goes with Yaqub Kuleni, he has compiled a book of narrations of Ahlulbayt [as], he never bothered to go into the issue as to what should be the definition of a Sahabi, since it has never been of importance to Shias.
I dont know if I am being clear here or not :S
[/quote]

brother BOY NICE i think the reason why 12er scholars have not gone too much into defination of sahaba is because their rijal works usually start from times of Imam baqir & sadiq.And so they began writing biographies for companions starting from these imams.By this time vast majority of sahaba were dead anyway.Also in later 12er hadith works there seems to be a effort to distinguish their stance from other pro-Alid doctrines like those of zaydia and mutazilite.Thats why only those narraters with solid 12er credentials seem to have been given preference.

Before that period it seems to me that shia and sunni narraters [or shud i say proto-sunni ,proto-shia] were used by all hadith compilers.So we why so many famous sunni hadith works even the 6 grt books have transmitters with shia-leaning.So in early narraters accepted by both e.g we see hudhaifa ,abu tufayl , zayd b arqam etc.Its hard to characterize their hadith as strictly shia or sunni.Their early biographiers like ibn rafi ,ibn kalbi were also called shia loosely since their forefathers had sided with Ali in civil wars but they generally did not considered imami or 12ers as they did not express any explicit acceptence of the imamate doctrine that came to be associatted with 12ers.

Introducing Myself
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Shaykhayn discouraged hadith propogation.

I never said that Imam Ali should be the only source of hadiths, i was only talking about a clear 'benchmark'. i gtg now..