Death Penalty Sought for Conversion.

[Ibrahim]

Ibrahim says: Jazak Allahu Khair Brother Akif for the facts in this case that seems to elude many.

Humility in Knowledge and ** Arrogance in Ignorance**
By Khalid Baig

Imam Malik bin Anas (b. 93 AH, d. 179 AH) was one of the greatest Islamic scholars of all times. ** Among his 1300 disciples were people from all walks of life; rulers, judges, historians, Sufis, poets, and scholars of Qur’an, Hadith, and Fiqh. The Khalifah attended his class as an ordinary student along with others. **

In the best traditions of this Ummah Imam Malik considered his knowledge as a trust. When he knew something to be right or wrong, no intimidation could stop him from declaring so. It was his fatwa that divorce given under compulsion is invalid, that earned him the wrath of the ruler (as it implied that pledge of allegiance given under compulsion was also invalid). He was punished with lashes and at every strike he said, “I am Malik bin Anas and I declare that divorce given under compulsion is invalid.”

** Yet it was the same Imam Malik who was more likely to say “la adree” (I don’t know) or “la ahsin” (I don’t know it very well) in response to the constant flow of queries directed toward him.** Once a person approached him and told him that he had come from Marrakesh — after a six month journey — only to ask a question. “My people back home are waiting for your answer,” he said. After hearing the question Imam Malik replied, “Please tell your people that I do not know the answer to your question.” In one case he was asked forty-eight questions and in response to thirty-two of them he said, “I don’t know.” It was commonly said that if somebody wrote down Imam Malik’s answers to questions, he could easily fill pages with “I don’t know” before writing a real answer.

The reason for this extraordinary care was nothing but a deep sense of accountability before Allah. It was the caution of a person who was standing between Hell and Heaven, fearful that one wrong step could lead him to the former. “Before you answer a question about religious law, visualize that you are standing at the gates of Hell and Heaven,” he used to advise others.

Of course, he was not alone. Ibn Jareej used to attend the majlis (sitting) of Abdullah ibn Umar, Radi-Allahu anhuma. “In answer to more than half the questions he used to say I don’t know.” Ibn Abi Layla saw 120 Sahaba (companions).** “Whenever one of them was asked a question he wished that someone else would answer it.” **

Nor was this caution restricted to Fiqh (Islamic Law). In interpreting the Qur’an or the Hadith, they exercised same care. Imam Muslim whose Sahih Muslim is unanimously considered second of the two most authentic collections of Hadith, had set for himself only the task of Hadith collection leaving the job of interpreting them to others. He was so concerned about this that he did not even divide the book into chapters for such classification would amount to interpretation.

They were the authoritative source on Islamic teachings, having devoted their lives to learning and practicing them. They knew very well the tremendous burden inherent in a statement that begins “Allah says”, or “The Prophet, Sall-Allahu alayhi wa sallam, says”. For here stating something that is not so means that a person is attributing something to Allah or the Prophet, Sall-Allahu alayhi wa sallam, that is not true. What can be a greater sin than that! They always remembered that it is Haram to give fatwa without knowledge. They always remembered the Hadith, “Whoever interprets the Qur’an without knowledge should make his abode in Hell.”

Fast forward to today and you are in a totally different world. Across the Muslim world today there are innumerable “experts” who are willing to interpret the Qur’an and Hadith, give fatwas, even do Ijtihad — all without the benefit of even the minimum religious education and training. If such a person is a good writer or speaker that is qualification enough. For the audiences today readily confuse eloquence with scholarship. If the “expert” also carries the magic title “Dr.” that certainly fills any gaps in his authority. It does not matter whether his educational achievement maybe in gynecology or business administration, journalism or nuclear science, physics or animal husbandry.

The results have been disastrous. The vast confusion and ignorance of even elementary subjects in religious teachings among the seemingly “educated” classes today is unprecedented. ** Today one can find all sorts of un-Islamic ideas and practices, conjectures, whims, and desires finding approval in the “Ijtihaddom” that has been concocted. What is more we also make a virtue out of this catastrophe by bragging that we have broken the “shackles of blind following” and opened direct access to the original sources of Islamic teachings. But no amount of bragging can hide the fact that this is the equivalent of allowing unlicensed and untrained people to practice medicine. ** Although in this case the resulting death and injury is not physical and is therefore less visible.

The reasons for this malaise are complex but two stand out. First, the schooling of our “educated” people included very little or none of Islamic education. Plainly, we do not know and we do not know that we do not know. Second, many of us harbor great mistrust of those who have received formal Islamic education. In turn this is also based on ignorance of what constitutes such education. It is a distant world, a black box, and all we know is that there is something wrong with it.

For a change let us visit a darul-uloom where they are screening candidates for admission to the next ifta class. The top scorers from the regular alim course were given a test and just the top ten scorers from the test will be brought for interview. They are tested not only for their knowledge of Arabic and religious texts but also their ability to understand complex real life situations and to communicate well. Once they graduate, they will do an internship for years under qualified and experienced muftis. But even the best of their teachers will consult others when they face a difficult issue. After exercising the best of caution they will learn to say “Allah knows best” at the end of their answers.
It is not to say that the decline of Muslim political power and the general decline of Muslim civilization has had no effect on this area of activity or our darul-iftas are running problem free. But can anyone in all honesty declare that an alternative that misses each and everyone of these features is better? ** There is a famous saying in Urdu. “A pseudo doctor is danger to life. A pseudo religious scholar is danger to faith.” Do we know the danger?**

Ibrahim says: salaams to all

Dear Brethren

let us look at the laws prescribed by God in the Bible such that we can comprehend the practices of the prophets and their teachings more easily .

Exodus 22: 20.

"Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the LORD ** must be destroyed. **

Leviticus: 24: 16.

anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD ** must be put to death.** The entire assembly must stone him. ** Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death.**

Numbers 3:10.

Appoint Aaron and his sons to serve as priests; ** anyone else who approaches the sanctuary must be put to death."**

Deuteronomy 13: 6.

If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known,

7. gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other),

8. ** do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. **

9. ** You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. **

10. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

11. Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, ** and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.**

Ibrahim says; These are the injunctions that the Jews and Christian have to practice as per their scriptures.

Let us go back a little further to see, if this was a new injunction or a permanent one revealed in order to preserve the sanctity of mankind’s faith in God.

LORD SIVA CONDEMNED FOR ALLOWING A LOW-CASTE (A SUDRA) TO READ VEDAS

Women & Sudras (& outcastes) are not allowed to study the Vedas; this is one reason this “God” Siva is denounced for allowing a Sudra the Vedic teachings. Daksa’s curse is as follows:

Brahma Purana 2:13:70-73; Garuda Purana 6:19; Bhagavata Purana 4:2:10-32.

“The Brahmins will not sacrifice to you along with the other gods, ** for Siva has defiled the path followed by good men; he is impure, an abolisher of rites and demolisher of barriers, [who gives] the word of the Vedas to a Sudra.** He wanders like a madman, naked, laughing, the lord of ghosts, evil-hearted. Let Siva, the lowest of the gods, obtain no share with Indra and Visnu at the sacrifice; let all the followers of Siva be heretics, opponents of the true scriptures, following the heresy whose god is the king of ghosts.”

LORD RAMA, THE GREAT UPHOLDER OF DHARMA, SLAYS AN INNOCENT SUDRA

Lord Rama, the sat-purusa (ideal man) & the great upholder of dharma, upholds the dharma of slaughtering an innocent Sudra only because he was performing asceticism (tapas). Low-castes like Sudras were not allowed to perform austerities or penances as Brahmins were, because the whole universe could go out of balance when caste divisions are not adhered to. Therefore, Sambuka, only because he was born as a Sudra and was performing the svadharma (caste duty) of a higher caste than his own, was slain by Rama as a sacrifice:

Ramayana 7:88-89.

“Thereupon approaching him, Rama said, ‘O you of good vows, blessed are you; I do ask you, now, O highly effulgent and grown old in asceticism, in what Varna (caste) are you born? I put this question out of curiosity. I am the son of king Dasaratha and my name is Rama. For what are you going through such hard austerities? Is it heaven or anything else that you pray for? O ascetic, I wish to hear, of the purpose for which you are performing such hard penances. Are you a Brahman, or an irrepressible Ksatriya or the third caste Vaisya or a Sudra? Speak the truth and you shall be crowned with auspiciousness.’ Hearing the words of Rama, the ascetic, whose face was downwards, gave out his degraded birth and communicated unto him for what he was performing ascetic observances. Hearing the words of Rama of unwearied actions, the ascetic, with his face downwards, said, ‘O highly illustrious Rama, I am born in the race of Sudras; and with a view to reach the region of the celestials with my body I am going through these austere penances. O Kakutstha (Rama), I shall never utter a falsehood since I am willing to conquer the region of gods. ** I am a Sudra and my name is Sambuka.’ The Sudra ascetic having said this, Rama took out of scabbard a beautiful sharp sword and chopped off his head therewith. And that Sudra being slain, Indra, Agni and other celestials praised him again and again and showered flowers.”**

Ibrahim says; Hence the laws are very consistent when it comes to matters of faith from ancient times .

The reason for this should be obvious , it would me much more simple to understand when we consider faith as a body and what ever that tries to corrupt it, like a cancer trying to destroy that body.

In which case the removal of that cancerous cells is the only solution for the survival of that body.

Now coming back to the hadiths where killing a revert has been mentioned, one should not be hasty in assuming that this is the norm in Islam . These hadiths are limited in details as to why it was approved in those particular cases but the scriptures gives sufficient details as to when one is to be put to death as is the case in the Bible, (for Jews and Christians) .

Similarly In Islam

Whenever anyone of us seem ever so bent on being rebellious by reneging our faith in Allah (swt) , ** it is when such a person becomes “harmful” to the society, the law and command to ‘execute” applies. ** In other words one can convert to any religion or even become an atheist if that is what they have chosen to become, ( In Islam there is no compulsion in religion) but when one starts trying to harm others by spreading misinformation or by misrepresentation the facts willfully or by fabrication with intent to destroy that faith, then the law against “false prophets” has to be applied to the fullest extent without mercy as prescribed in the Bible and Qur’an . ( hence one can be sentenced to death for such a crime)

This is actually simple to understand, you see, some bacteria’s live within your body and are not harmful to you, so one will not be bothered about it but when they start harming your body , ** you will have to kill them or else they destroy you. **
Hence in Islam the law prescribed by Allah (swt) is

6: 151 ** Say: “Come I will rehearse what Allah hath (really) prohibited you from”:** join not anything as equal with Him; be good to your parents: kill not your children on a plea of want; We provide sustenance for you and for them; come not nigh to shameful deeds whether open or secret; ** take not life which Allah hath made sacred except by way of justice and law:** thus doth He command you that ye may learn wisdom.

Ibrahim says: It is not only that human life is sacred, but all life is sacred. Even in killing animals for food, a dedicatory formula “in the name of Allah” has to be employed, to make it lawful. Similarly in taking life it must be by way of “Justice” and not on account of preferences, injustice or malice.

Thus in the case of those who becomes apostates, the law applicable to them are

9: 65 If thou dost question them they declare (with emphasis): “we were only talking idly and in play.” ** Say: “was it at Allah and His signs and His apostle that ye were mocking?” **

9: 66 Make ye no excuses: ye have rejected faith after ye had accepted it.** If We pardon some of you We will punish others amongst you for that they are in sin. **

Ibrahim says; hence Muslims are left to judge the situation and the circumstances and apply the laws of justice, where applicable. As much as pardon should be available to those who may repent , punishment would also be due to those who may deserve it.

So you may wonder how does one identify these people?

47: 25 ** Those who turn back as apostates after Guidance was clearly shown to them the Evil One has instigated them and buoyed them up with false hopes.**

26 This because they said to those who hate what Allah has revealed ** “We will obey you in part of (this) matter”; but Allah knows their (inner) secrets. **

27 But how (will it be) when the angels take their souls at death and smite their faces and their backs?

28 This ** because they followed that which called forth the Wrath of Allah and they hated Allah’s good pleasure;** so He made their deeds of no effect.

29 ** Or do those in whose hearts is a disease think that Allah will not bring to light all their rancor? **

30 Had We so willed We could have shown them up to thee and thou shouldst have known them by their marks: ** but surely thou wilt know them by the tone of their speech! ** And Allah knows All that ye do.

Ibrahim says: Hence Muslims will be able to identify them by their speech and behavior.

So you may ask where does it tell us that you should kill them?

Ibrahim says; This is applied on the basis of

3: 86 ** How shall Allah guide those who reject faith after they accepted it ** and bore witness that the Apostle was true and that clear signs had come unto them? But Allah guides not a people unjust.

87 ** Of such the reward is that on them (rests) the curse of Allah of His angels and of all mankind. **

88 In that will they dwell; ** nor will their penalty be lightened nor respite be their (lot). **

89 Except for those that repent (even) after that and make amends: ** for verily Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful. **

Ibrahim says: Now ** the hadd (punishment) for those who persist and try to defame and destroy Islam in their hate or rebellion is similar to that of a traitor who betrays his own country **

5: 33 The punishment of ** those who wage war against Allah and His Apostle and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution or crucifixion of the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides or exile from the land: ** that is their disgrace in this world and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter.

Ibrahim says: This is further strengthen by the following hadiths,

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith Hadith 9.17 Narrated by Abdullah

Allah’s Apostle said, “The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse ** and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims.” **

Ibrahim says; ** thus this would be the logical solution for those who will harm the body, in short kill or remove the cancer or be killed by it. **

So Islam is based upon “sound logic” and “reason” and that is root of religion.. which is the reason why we have a shariah law, which is based on the Qur’an and the teaching and practices (sunnah) of the Prophet (pbuh)

5: 41 O Apostle! ** let not those grieve thee who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say: “We believe” with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; ** or it be among the Jews men who will listen to any lie will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places; they say "If ye are given this take it but if not beware: ** " If anyone’s trial is intended by Allah thou hast no authority in the least for him against Allah. ** For such it is not Allah’s will to purify their hearts. ** For them there is disgrace in this world ** and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment.

42 (They are fond of) listening to falsehood of devouring anything forbidden. If they do come to thee either judge between them or decline to interfere. If thou decline they cannot hurt thee in the least. If thou judge judge in equity between them; ** for Allah loveth those who judge in equity. **

49 And this (He commands): Judge thou between them by what Allah hath revealed and follow not their vain desires but beware of them lest they beguile thee from any of that (teaching) which Allah hath sent down to thee. ** And if they turn away be assured that for some of their crimes it is Allah’s purpose to punish them. And truly most men are rebellious. **

Ibrahim says; ** Nothing comes to pass without Allah’s approval, hence IF Allah (swt) wanted to punish the guilty Allah (swt) merely exposes them to those who are in authority according to the laws of the land . **

THUS THOSE WHO ARE BROUGHT TO TRAIL OR GOT EXPOSED AS APOSTATES, are those whom Allah (swt) had destined their punishment in this world too. Others who may privately practice their choice of faith, do so without any compulsion in religion as per Islamic teachings.

Hope this helps give clarity as to why the laws prescribe killing the destructive deviants of faith

Allah (swt) knows best
Was salaam
Ibrahim

Additional info according to the Bible……………

** False Prophets or False teachers of faith **

Deuteronomy 13

1. If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder,

2. and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,”

3.** you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. ** The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul.

4. It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him.

5.** That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, ** because he preached rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.

Duetteronomy 18:20

20. But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a ** prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death." **

Isaiah 44:24-25

24. "This is what the LORD says-- your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,

25. ** who foils the signs of false prophets and makes fools of diviners,** who overthrows the learning of the wise and turns it into nonsense,

Jeremiah 50: 35-36

35. “A sword against the Babylonians!” declares the LORD-- "against those who live in Babylon and against her officials and wise men!

36. ** A sword against her false prophets! ** They will become fools. A sword against her warriors! They will be filled with terror.

Matthew 7:15-20

15. ** "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.**

16. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?

17. Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.

18. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.

19. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

20. ** Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. **

2 Peter 2

1. But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—** bringing swift destruction on themselves. **

Revelation 19:20

20. But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. ** The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.**

[ahmadjee]

Akif Bhai,

Don't know about others who participated, but I question the 'Death Penalty for conversion' being part of Sharia, not that if sharia should be enforced or not. They are two totally different issues.

The issue of 'death for conversion' has been discussed before & widely agreed that the belief has no basis in Quran, actually contradicts it. The only hadiths that supports is quoted above; and I believe it to be a fabricated one.

[This message has been edited by ahmadjee (edited May 04, 2002).]

[Ibrahim]

[quote]
Originally posted by ahmadjee:
The issue of 'death for conversion' has been discussed before & widely agreed that the belief has no basis in Quran, actually contradicts it. The only hadiths that supports is quoted above; and I believe it to be a fabricated one.

[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Apparently you have failed to understand the original article itself , as to why they are being brought to justice and concluded that it was due to conversion to another religion on your own or due to the media headline

1) It was not because they just converted but because they joined a Christian movement , which may be using them to convert others ( I assume that is how they got caught) that they were originally Muslims but had converted to Christianity to fool Muslims would amount to treason in a country govern by Islamic law as are the laws prescribed in the Bible for Jews and Christians as quoted by me earlier.

[quote]
Lawali Yakubu and Ali Jafaru, villagers in their 30s, were accused in the Islamic, or Shariah, court in the northern town of Mada of recently abandoning the Islamic faith ** and joining the Great Commission Movement, an international Evangelical church with a strong following in Nigeria.**
[/quote]

2) in addition according to the same article

[quote]
Yakubu and Jafaru were ** not represented by lawyers but were instead accompanied by fellow church members.**

The two argued they** had never been Muslims,** but were instead members of the Magazawa, a Hausa subgroup that has long practiced Christianity.** The overwhelming majority of Hausas — one of Nigeria's largest tribes — are Muslim
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : based on the above details , it is clear, that had they been Christians all the while as claimed by them, I wonder why they will have difficulties in proving as such, as such matters will be recorded in their baptismal papers and would be well known in their Christian community.

At the same time note the names they are using.

a) Lawali Yakubu
b) Ali Jafaru

Doesn’t sound very much like Christian names, does it?

On the other hand had the Christian group been involved in using these two as scapegoats to attract Muslims to Christianity then by the will of Allah (swt) they deserve their predicament.

Anyway, in Islam killing or exile is approved for treason and if these two are guilty of such conduct, in the sense that they have now deceitfully tried to convert others to Christianity in a Muslim state , then Islam enjoins their death. ** Again all these has to be proven before a sharia court of judges before judgment and it is not for us to decide or dispute in such matters where we have limited info as to what actually is the charge and the evidence against them.

Regards
Ibrahim

** Politicians try to chose sides on a round planet - how silly! **

[ahmadjee]

Ibrahim,

If I recall correctly, we have been through this before. You seem to argue that one can judge the intention of why someone converted and I disagree & say that such a judgment can only be made by God himself.

[quote]
It was not because they just converted but because they joined a Christian movement, which may be using them to convert others ( I assume that is how they got caught) that they were originally Muslims but had converted to Christianity to fool Muslims would amount to treason in a country govern by Islamic law
[/quote]

So, even if I assume, for the sake of argument, that the converts "maybe" using them to convert others, so what's the big problem with that? If others can be fooled so easily, then the Islamic state should do something to strengthen their faith, not execute the preacher.

I don't believe that Islam is a possessive & insecure religion that would not allow people to convert if they don't feel comfortable believing in it anymore. Islam teaches 'submission of heart to God' not a submission that is shoved down one's throat due to the fear of an Islamic state.

[Ibrahim]

[quote]
Originally posted by ahmadjee:
If I recall correctly, we have been through this before. You seem to argue that one can judge the intention of why someone converted and I disagree & say that such a judgment can only be made by God himself.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: salaams to all

Ahmadjee…can you tell me where I have put forward such an argument? Or is that what you assumed, even after quoting so many verses from a number of scriptures that are held sacred by so many religionists?

The First point being , it was not about conversion but about treason to their original faith.

The second point being that this was a requirement that God established ** as a deterrent to ensure that the believers are protected from the devils onslaught **

[quote]
So, even if I assume, for the sake of argument, that the converts "maybe" using them to convert others, so what's the big problem with that?
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : the problem with deception is, ** “it is deception” ( it is untrue) ** and has to be exposed and destroyed in order to protect the innocent .

The Creator had entrusted mankind with wisdom to ensure that the weak and innocent are guided aright by the wise, not left to be devoured by the wolves in sheep’s clothing’s. Now the choice is yours, you can either chose to reveal the truth when you know what it is or chose to keep quite and bear the burden for it at some later date and time.

[quote]
If others can be fooled so easily, then the Islamic state should do something to strengthen their faith, not execute the preacher.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; What makes you think you had not been fooled in all your wisdom? Hence in Islam those entrusted with the duty of establishing justice have been given guidelines as to how it is to be established, as and when you are qualified to do such things you may most likely understand them, failing which , every offender most certainly dislikes the laws that he/she has breached. That should be obvious.

BTW can you tell me why a false preacher should be allowed to preach his falsehoods?

In addition do you feel the repeated commands as given by God, as mentioned in the bible concerning the eradication of false preachers may be wrong ?

[quote]
I don't believe that Islam is a possessive & insecure religion that would not allow people to convert if they don't feel comfortable believing in it anymore.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; Are you saying the Qur’an is contradicting itself when it says

2: 256 ** Let there be no compulsion in religion.** Truth stands out clear from error; whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things

commentary:

Compulsion is incompatible with religion; because

1) religion depends upon faith and will, and these would be meaningless if induced by force;

2) Truth and Error have been so clearly shown up by the mercy of God that there should be no doubt in the minds of any persons of goodwill as to the fundamentals of faith;

3) God's protection is continuous and His Plan is always to lead us from the depths of darkness into the clearest light

Ibrahim says : No human being can be forced to practice a faith in his heart and mind, physically one can be forced to say (utter certain words) or bow down to others, but NEVER with their own heart and mind being devoted to it.

The only way one can be forced ( if I may use that word ) into erroneous faith , is when they are deceived and that is why God had commanded firm and stern measures against deceivers. It is either death or exile and nothing less.

LET ME MAKE THIS CLEAR TO YOU AGAIN.

The notion here is not that one converts or has lost faith in Islam ( which many may have done, including you in my perception) but have become rebellious and are in an act of rebellion against Islam whilst under the protection of an Islamic state. And here the law of treason comes into play just as any state should protect itself against unjust rebels, Muslims are enjoined to bring to justice those caught in such acts of rebellion, whilst under the cover of Islam.

[quote]
Islam teaches 'submission of heart to God' not a submission that is shoved down one's throat due to the fear of an Islamic state.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Very true, don’t you realize, it is for this reason you have been given free will, a life on this planet for some time and the ability to move from one place to another?

Now think carefully Ahmadjee and tell me, what are the chances of you functioning harmoniously if you have cancerous cells growing in your body?

1) will the doctor suggests it removal ( destruction/killing)

2) or should the doctor, just allow it to grow within its own environment within your body and just give you medication for the pain it causes?

Ws salaam
Ibrahim

** we don’t plan to fail ; we fail to plan! God’s plan NEVER fails, nor are His commands EVER wrong. **

[ahmadjee]

Ibrahim,

[li]Please be kind enough to explain to us all what is 'treason to original faith' and how it is different from 'coverting to another faith and professing it'?[/li]

[quote]
have become rebellious and are in an act of rebellion against Islam whilst under the protection of an Islamic state.
[/quote]

[li] Please also list down a few things that you consider 'rebellious' against Islam (do include from the article above as examples)?[/li]
I would really appreciate a direct short & concise answer. Thank you!

[Ibrahim]

Ibrahim says: ahmadjee, kindly answer my earlier question, so that we can go one step at a time

[Faraz_Mir]

Sharia does not belong in this world. It is cruel and inhuman in nature.

[TOMASSO]

In my view, those recently converted from Islam to Christianity, who are immediately put in a spot to evangelize, are possibly done a disservice by their Christian converters. This is because these new converts may not fully understand that evangelical martyrdom is a distinct possibility. That is that the execution of those engaged in these actions has been forwarned as part of the "game". To throw them to the proverbial wolves cold like that is not right. Much thought needs to be given to this by these Christians.

[Adbulmalick]

[quote]
Originally posted by Faraz Mir:
Sharia does not belong in this world. It is cruel and inhuman in nature.
[/quote]

I am sure you meant the sharia based on 7th century sunnah!