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Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
Ibrahim says: Salaams to all,
Firstly let me convey to my brothers and sisters in Islam we are told ** not to dispute ** and that is conveyed to us in the Qur’an as well as the hadiths
Let us read ………..
2:148 ** To each is a goal to which Allah turns him; then strive together (as in a race) toward all that is good.** Wheresoever ye are Allah will bring you together. For Allah hath power over all things.
149 From whencesoever thou startest forth turn thy face in the direction of the Sacred Mosque; that is indeed the truth from thy Lord. And Allah is not unmindful of what ye do.
150 So from whencesoever thou startest forth turn thy face in the direction of the Sacred Mosque; among wheresoever ye are turn your face thither ** that there be no ground of dispute against you among the people except those of them that are bent on wickedness; so fear them not but fear Me; ** and that I may complete My favors on you and ye may (consent to) be guided.
Ibrahim says: And again we are told to refrain from useless arguments with the ignorant when we read
25: 63 ** And the servants of (Allah) Most Gracious are those who ** walk on the earth in humility and** when the ignorant address them they say "Peace!" **
In the hadiths we can read…………
Al-Tirmidhi Hadith Hadith 225 Narrated by Ka'b ibn Malik ; Abdullah ibn Umar
Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said: ** He who acquires knowledge in order to fall into polemics with other scholars and prove his superiority over them, or to dispute with the ignorant or to attract the attention of the people, Allah will throw him in the Fire. **
Transmitted by Tirmidhi transmitted it from Ka'b, and Ibn Majah from Ibn Umar.
Al-Tirmidhi Hadith Hadith 269 Narrated by Ziyad ibn Hudayr
Umar said to me: ** Do you know what demolishes Islam? ** I said: No. Whereupon he said: ** It is the slip of a scholar and the dispute of the hypocrite by the Book, and the commands of the misguided rulers which demolish it.** Transmitted by Darimi.
Sunan of Abu-Dawood Hadith 2509 Narrated by Mu'adh ibn Jabal
The Prophet (peace be upon him) said:** Fighting is of two kinds: ** The one who seeks Allah's favour, obeys the leader, gives the property he values, treats his associates gently and avoids doing mischief, will have the reward for all the time whether he is asleep or awake;** but the one who fights in a boasting spirit, for the sake of display and to gain a reputation, who disobeys the leader and does mischief in the earth will not return credit or without blame.**
Sahih Muslim Hadith Hadith 7115 Narrated by Abdullah ibn Abbas
Allah's Apostle (peace be upon him) said: If anyone wants to have his deeds widely publicised, Allah will publicise (his humiliation). ** And if anyone makes a hypocritical display (of his deeds) Allah will make a display of him.**
Ibrahim says: Thus it is always difficult for me to participate in these threads but yet If I/we left it unopposed, this threads become death traps for the numerous innocent gullible Muslims who may read them and end up being misguided by them
Thus my apologize to the readers for participating in them and ** my goal here is expose the errors. And May Allah (swt) forgive me for the level I have to go to correct this errors **. As to whom amongst us will be able to understand them and who will not be able to understand them, is not within my power.
May Allah (swt) guide us to understand.
Anyway let me get back to contents this thread………
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Thanks for your unusual interest in my personal hygine.
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Ibrahim says: PA, NO man, I am not interested in your personal hygiene , I am asking you, have you circumcised yourself?
And it is relevant to the logic you are using to argue in this thread!
So kindly admit you had nothing to do with circumcising. I expect an honest answer from you, so kindly oblige me.
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Ibrahim wrote earlier:- I went to the trouble of * illustrating the consistency of the Message given by Allah (swt) to all of mankind at any given time frame** but as usual PA does lack insight and foresight, hence has understood it differently. *
PA reply: That is not what you did.. when you couldn't find a direct commandment in Allah's Book you went to unpreserved, altered and doctored books which Jews and Christians proclaim to be truthful and the word of God.
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Ibrahim says: How will you know that? Or are you so wise and knower to tell me How I think too? Why would I need to quote what Muslims have already quoted to you again and again? and you seem to lack sufficient wisdom to understand them?
I made it easy for you, I told you in simple English why I asked you to look back in time but you are merely looking for a way to escape from practicing the ways of Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) , I am not responsible for what you chose to do, but I am concerned about the people whom you wish to mislead.
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My point which you have as usual failed to fathom is that even if those books were present in their original form, (which they aren't) the laws of the people of the Book are different from the laws given to us and we will be judged on the laws given to us in The Final Testament, The Qur'an.
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Ibrahim says: why would I need to restrict my self to your views when I know better by the Grace of Allah (swt) ? BTW when did I convey in this forum that Muslims will be judged by the shariah of the Jews or Christians?
Read and THINK!
2: 127 And remember Abraham and Isma`il raised the foundations of the House (with this prayer): "Our Lord! accept (this service) from us for thou art the All-Hearing the All-Knowing.
128 ** "Our Lord! make of us Muslims bowing to Thy (Will) and of our progeny a people Muslim bowing to Thy (Will) ** and show us our places for the celebration of (due) rites; and turn unto us (in mercy); for Thou art the Oft-Returning Most-Merciful.
2: 130 ** And who turns away from the religion of Abraham but such as debase their souls with folly? Him We chose and rendered pure in this world:** and he will be in the Hereafter in the ranks of the righteous.
Ibrahim says: Thus whosoever practices what prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) enjoined are Muslims, do you have doubts concerning it?
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Read and learn: [al-An`am 6:146] For those who followed the Jewish Law, We forbade every (animal) with undivided hoof, and We forbade them that fat of the ox and the sheep, except what adheres to their backs or their entrails, or is mixed up with a bone: this in recompense for their wilful disobedience: for We are true (in Our ordinances
PakistaniAbroad: Now tell me is that similar to the dietary prohibitions for Muslims??
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Ibrahim says: You must have studied under Bush jr for your fuzzy logic is indeed fuzzy, this is concerning dietary laws and I did not tell you the shariah given to the jew or Christian or Muslim does not have variations ( or they are all the same) …so WAKE UP and THINK carefully what we are talking about here.
The subject here is ** concerning women, their protection and their dress code, and women immaterial of creed have been given the same instructions from the beginning of our life’s on this planet by Allah (swt)
To understand such matters you need to know many scriptures, which due to your ignorance, you don’t, but argue with others who know better by the grace of Allah (swt)
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As always i'll help you cuz you are weak in Qur'anic verses but can litter the board with corrupted writings from the Jewish and Christian faith.
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Ibrahim says: you mean like telling us the kalima is wrong, azan is wrong and sunnah is wrong and now hijaab is wrong, I am sure I have forgotten your other follies already.
But hey you are most welcome to delude yourself as much as you want,** but I am only here to expose you and your ilk with regards to the errors your disseminate **
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[an-Nahl 16:115] He has only forbidden you dead meat, and blood, and the flesh of swine, and any (food) over which the name of other than God has been invoked. But if one is forced by necessity, without wilful disobedience, nor transgressing due limits,- then God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful
PakistaniAbroad: still don't get it??
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Ibrahim says: Again can you tell me how this proved your point, or are you so ignorant to quote one verse and substitute that for another subject?
BTW can you show me the verse that says it is forbidden for Muslim women to cover their heads but only those who followed prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) and the rest of the prophets (pbut) had been enjoined to do them.
I mean I am turning the table on you, since you want direct verse, now show me direct verse , that it is forbidden to use hijaab?
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Read once AGAIN.. and I've only quoted the relevant part lest you ignore it again.
[al-Ma'idah 5:48] .... for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you....
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Ibrahim says: Now read the laws given to All of mankind concerning woman and the final Prophet (pbuh)
Now THINK when you read, it helps a lot, sorry to make it blunt, but there seems to be no end to your disinformation campaign .
Qur’an 33:59
Yusuf Ali
O prophet! tell thy wives and daughters and the believing women that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient that they should be known (as such) and not molested: and Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful.
Pickthall
O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers ** to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad).** That will be better, that so they may be recognized and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.
Qur’an 24:31
Yusuf Ali
And say to the believing women that ** they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty ** except to their husbands their fathers their husbands' fathers their sons their husbands' sons their brothers or their brothers' sons or their sisters' sons or their women or the slaves whom their right hands possess or male servants free of physical needs or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah that ye may attain Bliss.
Pickthall
And tell the believing women ** to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment ** save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands' fathers, or their sons or their husbands' sons, or their brothers or their brothers' sons or sisters' sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male attendants who lack vigor, or children who know naught of women's nakedness. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn unto Allah together, O believers, in order that ye may succeed.
Qur’an 33:33
Yusuf Ali
And stay quietly in your houses ** and make not a dazzling display like that of the former Times of Ignorance;** and establish regular Prayer and give regular Charity; and obey Allah and His Apostle. And Allah only wishes to remove all abomination from you ye Members of the Family and to make you pure and spotless.
Pickthall
And stay in your houses. ** Bedizen not yourselves with the bedizenment of the Time of ignorance.** Be regular in prayer, and pay the poor due, and obey Allah and His messenger. Allah's wish is but to remove uncleanness far from you, O Folk of the Household, and cleanse you with a thorough cleansing.
Qur’an 24:60
Yusuf Ali
Such elderly women as are past the prospect of marriage there is no blame on them ** if they lay aside their (outer) garments provided they make not a wanton display of their beauty:** but it is best for them to be modest: and Allah is One Who sees and knows all things.
Pickthall
As for women past child-bearing, who have no hope of marriage, ** it is no sin for them if they discard their (outer) clothing in such a way as not to show adornment.** But to refrain is better for them. Allah is Hearer, Knower.
Ibrahim says: PA my dear, as far as I know women do wear some cloths when they are at home and even if they did not follow this ayats, they will not normally expose themselves as the current trend of mini skirts and scanty clothing’s only came into existence some 60 years ago , in fact if I am not mistaken, the first lady who showed her ankle in public has been recorded only in the 19th century
Now PA if you can put aside your fuzzy logic and then try and use your brains for a change, ** tell us what is going to be achieved by using another cloth to wrap around her, if it did not include her head too? **
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PakistaniAbroad: For me, and those who possess knowledge, there is no complication in understanding the above verse and it's meaning.
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Ibrahim say”: sure like your new kalima, it only works for the ignorant.
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* Ibrahim wrote earlier: After which try and ponder over these words you quoted again and IF EVER, you believed a women ( Jew or Christian) covering herself ( head & body) is of a “lower desire” and should not be practiced by a Muslim woman find out why the nuns do in their saintly behavior and why such things are considered saintly. *
Pa reply: Do not twist and read what I never said. To them is their law, to us is our law. That was the subject of my post. NOWHERE did I highlight or stress on the phrase "low desire" in the verses quoted.
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Ibrahim says: pardon me! Now try and explain why you quoted these verse, which are meant to convey that
[al-Ma'idah 5:48] And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed,** and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you;** for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;
[al-Ma'idah 5:49] And that you should judge between them by what Allah has revealed,** and do not follow their low desires, and be cautious of them, lest they seduce you from part of what Allah has revealed to you; ** but if they turn back, then know that Allah desires to afflict them on account of some of their faults; and most surely many of the people are transgressors.
Hey PA, understand the complete verse before you quote them as a rebuttal. It does not matter whether you highlight it or not , And my point was IF EVER YOU THINK, get it?
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I have fully understood and proven above using arabic translations. You are trying to put more into Allah's words.. I wonder who gave anyone the authority to dictate female dresscode once Allah has given his verses clear, fully detailed and explained.
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Ibrahim says; That authority had been given to the Prophet (pbuh) and he had explained what was the requirement for women , which is identical to the practice practiced by Prophets who came before him.
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Why don't you try going out covered from head to toe with just your eyes showing.. you are quick to impose it on women. Spend a day or two in that fashion in summers and get back to us on your understanding of "cover" and all that 'bracketed' information people insert into Allah's verses.
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Ibrahim says; So just because you don’t thing it is appropriate , you want to dispute with Allah’s commandments?
I will do one thing better, we will ask a NON Muslim how it feels…. Here read this and get enlightened.
** A Chinese American Non Muslim Woman Experiments with Hijaab**
by Kathy Chin
I walked down the street in my long white dress and inch-long, black hair one afternoon, and truck drivers whistled and shouted obscenities at me. I felt defeated. I had just stepped out of a hair salon. I had cut my hair short, telling the hairdresser to trim it as she would a guy's. I sat numbly as my hairdresser skillfully sheared into my shoulder-length hair with her scissors, asking me with every inch she cut off if I was freaking out yet. I wasn't freaking out, but I felt self-mutilated.
I WAS OBLITERATING MY FEMININITY
It wasn't just another haircut. It meant so much more. I was trying to appear androgynous by cutting my hair. I wanted to obliterate by femininity. Yet that did not prevent some men from treating me as a sex object. I was mistaken. It was not my femininity that was problematic, but
my sexuality, or rather the sexuality that some men had ascribed to me based on my biological sex. They reacted to me as they saw me and not as I truly am. Why should it even matter how they see me, as long as I know who I am? But it does. I believe that men who see women as only sexual beings often commit violence against them, such as rape and battery.
** Sexual abuse and assault are not only my fears, but my reality. I was molested and raped. My experiences with men who violated me have made me angry and frustrated. How do I stop the violence?** How do I prevent men from seeing me as an object rather than a female? How do I stop them from equating the two? How do I proceed with life after experiencing what others only dread?
The experiences have left me with questions about my identity. Am I just another Chinese-American female? I used to think that I have to arrive at a conclusion about who I am, but now I realize that my identity is constantly evolving.
** MY EXPERIENCE OF BEING "HIJABED" **
One experience that was particularly educational was when I "dressed up" as a Muslim woman for a drive along Crenshaw Boulevard with three Musim men as part of a news magazine project. ** I wore a white, long -sleeved cotton shirt, jeans, tennis shoes, and a flowery silk scarf that covered my head, which I borrowed from a Muslim woman** . Not only did I look the par, I
believed I felt the part. Of course, I wouldn't really know what it feels like to be Hijabed-I coined this word for the lack of a better term everyday, because I was not raised with Islamic teachings. However, people perceived me as a Muslim woman and did not treat me as a sexual being by
making cruel remarks. I noticed that men's eyes did not glide over my body as has happened when I wasn't Hijabed. I was fully clothed, exposing only my face. I remembered walking into an Islamic center and an African-American gentleman inside addressed me as "sister, and asked where I came from. I told him I was originally from China. That didn't seem to matter. There was a sense of closeness between us because he assumed I was Muslim. I didn't know how to break the news to him because I wasn't sure if I was or not. I walked into the store that sold African jewelry and furniture and another gentleman asked me as I was walking out if I was Muslim. I looked at him and smiled, not knowing how to respond. I chose not
to answer.
** BEING HIJABED CHANGED OTHERS' PERCEPTION OF ME **
Outside the store, I asked one of the Muslim men I was with, "Am I Muslim?" He explained that everything that breathes and submits is. I have concluded that I may be and just don't know it. I haven't labeled myself as such yet. I don't know enough about Islam to assert that I am Muslim. Though I don't pray five times a day, go to a mosque, fast, nor cover my head with a scarf daily, this does not mean that I am not Muslim. These seem to be the natural manifestations of what is within. How I am inside does not directly change whether I am Hijabed or not. It is others' perception of me that was changed. Repeated experiences with others in turn creates a
self-image.
HIJAB AS OPPRESSION: A SUPERFICIAL AND MISGUIDED VIEW
I consciously chose to be Hijabed because I was searching for respect from men. Initially, as both a Women's Studies major and a thinking female, I bought into the Western view that the wearing of a scarf is oppressive.
After this experience and much reflection, I have arrived at the conclusion that such a view is superficial and misguided: It is not if the act is motivated by conviction and understanding.
THE MOST LIBERATING EXPERIENCE OF MY LIFE
** I covered up that day out of choice, and it was the most liberating experience of my life. I now see alternatives to being a woman. I discovered that the way I dress dictated others' reaction towards me. ** It saddens me that this is a reality. It is a reality that I have accepted, and chose to conquer rather than be conquered by it. It was my sexuality that I covered, not my femininity. The covering of the former allowed the liberation of the latter.
** This article was originally published in Al-Talib, the newsmagazine of the Muslim Students' Association of the University of California in Los Angeles UCLA) in October 1994. At the time of its publication, Kathy Chin was a senior at UCLA majoring in Psychobiology and Women's Studies.**
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John is confusing two verses, and you have joined him in this parade of ignorance.
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Ibrahim says: I think you are the confused and cannot understand both verses, he made it simple for you, go an get a piece of clothe and try covering yourself without exposing yourself, try it and also he challenged you to show him a verse which says you must not cover your head in the process
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The followers of the corrupted books of Jews and Christians however wish for us to start following their Shariah.. classic example of Biblical Sunnism.
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Ibrahim says: a very silly comment but expected from people like you who have the audacity to dispute about the Muslim kalima.
Was salaam
Ibrahim
** Every time you fail you are that much closer to success. **