Claims of torture in Guantanamo Bay

"Al Qaeda is a multi-national organisation, with members from numerous countries and with a worldwide presence. It was set up to establish a Muslim Caliphate and has a military wing, economic wing, social wing, and hierachy. It is not a mercenary unit?"

You may well be describing exactly what the Geneva Conventions would describe as a mercenary organization, as follows:2. A mercenary is any person who:

(a) is specially recruited locally or abroad in order to fight in an armed conflict;

(b) does, in fact, take a direct part in the hostilities;

(c) is motivated to take part in the hostilities essentially by the desire for private gain and, in fact, is promised, by or on behalf of a Party to the conflict, material compensation substantially in excess of that promised or paid to combatants of similar ranks and functions in the armed forces of that Party;

(d) is neither a national of a Party to the conflict nor a resident of territory controlled by a Party to the conflict;

(e) is not a member of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict; and

(f) has not been sent by a State which is not a Party to the conflict on official duty as a member of its armed forces.

The only item which could be debated is item c). , however pay records from Afghanistan show that frequently the Afghan fighters were not paid at all, while OBL paid and housed the Al Qaeda fighters directly. Pakistani's, Arabs, Chechans and others who sign up to fight without their Govenments endorsement, and who are paid for their efforts are indeed mercenaries. Mercenaries are not entitled to POW treatment. You can dance around this all you like, but going to another country to fight without the endorsement of your government means that you waive protections as a POW.

Second, the sole arbiter of the treatment of detainees is the Red Cross. The way this process works is that the Red Cross conducts inpections and takes complaints regarding the treatement of detainees. They investigate. If they find the allegations true, then they confront the Detaining power and have them correct the behavior. If an issue goes uncorrected, then the Red Cross will go public with their complaint. To date the only comments from the Red Cross were the release of photographs of prisoners which has ceased, and questions arising as to whether detainees will be tried for battlefield crimes. They are not in anyway critical of the treatment of the prisoners, ergo we can assume that either there are no problems, or problems have been corrected to the satifaction of the Red Cross. Despite your sloppy cut and paste of rights of POWs, you have not noted one right that a prisoner of War would have that the detainees do not currently have.

Zakk,

There have also been a lot of people quietly repatriated to their countries after their detention. The detaining power absolutely has the right to interrogate detainees, and I am not swayed that they are being tortured. As long as they are not shoving cattle prods up their arse it is fine with me. Having worked in the Government, they have a lawyer for everything. If some lawyer believes that our interrogations are allowable, even though they may include deception, and "stress and duress", I have no problem with it. Hand an American trooper over to the Al Qaeda and see what happens. You are barking up the wrong tree.

Frankly at this point the information any of them might have is probably so old and stale that it is worthless anyhow. But they should remain in detention so long as there is a conflict going on. Nothing says that the detaining power must repatriate them if there is any doubt that they will return to the battlefield.

The US is playing tough and hard by the letter of the law. You may not like it, but given our history of porous borders, lax immigration, and history of ignoring terrorists other than lobbing the occasional tomahawk missle, I am not convinced that any moral boundry has been crossed. The fact remains that the detainees were picked up on the battlefield, and may or may not be "terrorists". Even if they were just foot soldiers we could still keep them until the conflict was over. Is it over? I am sure that we would turn back any Afghans to Karzai, and we have returned lots of (mercenary) Pakistani's to Mushy. Would you rather be held by the US, or by the Afghans or the Pakistani's?

Lastly, I am not using the Red Cross as an excuse. I trust them. If an onsite inspector from the Red Cross went public that the US was out of bounds with it's interrogations, then I would be right there with you. But the article posted on this thread is instigated by a lawyer trying to gain the release of his client by whipping up a public frenzy. He has no personal knowledge of anything, and has every motivation in the world to exaggerate or lie.

Ohioguy

My dear friend.

Shifting the goalposts each time your back is against the wall is no way to debate. It's a classic red herring tactic.

You cannot take parts of this Geneva Convention and use them to your advantage and disregard the other parts brecasue they don't benefit your warped sense of logic. You are wimpering and wampering on about the Red Cross and feel comfortbale that they are happy so everything is hunky dory, despite the majority of the world condemning this practice.

Just to burst your bubble, here is the latest from the Red Cross:

29-9-2003

For the ICRC, the question of the legal status of the persons held at Guantanamo Bay and the legal framework applicable to them remains unresolved.

The ICRC's main concern today is that the US authorities have placed the internees in Guantanamo beyond the law. This means that, after more than eighteen months of captivity, the internees still have no idea about their fate, and no means of recourse through any legal mechanism.

Through its visits, the ICRC has been uniquely placed to witness the impact this uncertainty has had on the internees. It has observed a worrying deterioration in the psychological health of a large number of them. This has prompted the ICRC to ask the US authorities to institute a due legal process in accordance with the judicial guarantees stipulated by international humanitarian law. This process should formalize and clarify the fate of each and every individual in Guantanamo and put an end to the seemingly open-ended system of internment that currently exists. The ICRC has also asked the US authorities to implement significant changes at Guantanamo Bay.

The US has the right to legally prosecute any internee at Guantanamo Bay suspected of having committed war crimes or any other criminal offence punishable under US law.

International humanitarian law stipulates that any proceedings against detainees should respect fundamental judicial guarantees, such as the presumption of innocence, the right to be tried by an impartial and independent tribunal, the right to competent legal counsel and the exclusion of any evidence obtained as a result of torture or other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment.

Even the Red Cross is stating what I have stated, but you still seem to be asleep.

Word of advice.

Stay asleep.

Case closed.

Poor Sholay, not much Media Savvy here.

First, provide a link.

Second, the Article which originally started this thread is propmpted by the detention of an Ausie anmed Hicks, whose would-be activist -lawyers are attempting to manipulate the media so that they can become the lawyers of record.

The Red Cross is worried that the emotional state of the Al Qaeda is fragile because they do not know when and if they will be tried. go back to my original statements. If they were treated as POW’s, THERE WOULD BE NO TRIALS AT ALL! They would be held until the end of the conflict. As for the Ausie in the article, he has not only been seen by the Red Cross, but by the Australian Government:

Read on:

Hicks spared death but will not get Australian lawyer
By Marian Wilkinson in Washington, Penelope Debelle and Cynthia Banham
July 25 2003

Australian officials are to travel to Guantanamo Bay, Cuba to tell Australian detainee David Hicks he has been slated for possible trial by a United States military commission, allowing him the first understanding of his legal future since his detention 18 months ago.

Australian officials in Washington indicated yesterday that the visit was “likely to inform Hicks of the military commission and its procedures” and would take place “as soon as practicable”.

US officials yesterday also agreed to concessions for Mr Hicks, similar to those won by the British Government for its detained citizens. They include that he will not face the death penalty and is likely to be able to serve his sentence in Australia.

The Foreign Minister, Alexander Downer, said: “We’re … pleased that if he’s convicted by the military commission, and sentenced, the Americans would be willing to allow him to serve his sentence in Australia.” However, the details "would have to be worked out by our lawyThe breakthrough came after the Justice Minister, Chris Ellison, wrapped up talks in Washington with US officials, including the Deputy Defence Secretary, Paul Wolfowitz, who will decide whether Mr Hicks will finally be tried by a military commission.

Pentagon lawyers told Senator Ellison they would not monitor Mr Hicks’s conversations with his US lawyers and would not rely on classified material that would exclude him from hearing the evidence against him.

The breakthrough came after the Justice Minister, Chris Ellison, wrapped up talks in Washington with US officials, including the Deputy Defence Secretary, Paul Wolfowitz, who will decide whether Mr Hicks will finally be tried by a military commission.

Pentagon lawyers told Senator Ellison they would not monitor Mr Hicks’s conversations with his US lawyers and would not rely on classified material that would exclude him from hearing the evidence against him.

“We have every faith in the American judicial system,” Senator Ellison said after the agreement was reached.

Despite the concessions won, Senator Ellison was not able to secure the right for Mr Hicks to have access to an Australian lawyer because of what he called US “security considerations”.

He could not explain what these were, nor why Mr Hicks could not have access to a US lawyer until after charges were laid.

Australian officials are still hoping to negotiate access to an Australian lawyer, and telephone contact for Mr Hicks’s family once he is charged.

The opposition parties yesterday continued to call for Mr Hicks to be brought to trial in Australia.

Labor welcomed the announcement he would not face the death penalty, but said it was regrettable the Government had failed to secure changes to ensure his trial would meet “Australian standards of fairness”. The Democrats said the death penalty decision was “cold comfort”, given Mr Hicks would be tried in secret “by a kangaroo court”.

US legal advisers acting on behalf of the Guantanamo Bay detainees said the concessions for the British and Australian detainees were minimal and the military commissions were still unconstitutional. “The fact that there is no independent review of the military commissions by a court in the United States is still the most fundamental flaw,” said Steven Watt, of the Centre for Constitutional Rights.

Senator Ellison offered little news on the detainee from Sydney, Mamdouh Habib. His situation was discussed, but investigations were continuing.

However, Australian officials travelling to Guantanamo Bay to see Mr Hicks will also be given access to Mr Habib.
Mr Hicks’s lawyer, Franco Camatta, said Australian legal representation would run into tens of thousands of dollars and would not be possible without federal funding.
“Are they going to provide legal aid to facilitate that?” he said. “What is the Federal Government going to do to ensure he has access to an Australian lawyer? Without funding it is simply not possible.”

And as far as the TORTURE claim, Australian representatives who have seen the prisoner in the original article say that there has been no torture.

No evidence of Hicks torture: govt
October 16, 2003 - 5:05PM

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Red Cross and Australian officials who visited Guantanamo Bay where two Australian terror suspects were held reported no signs of torture, parliament heard.

Attorney-General Philip Ruddock said he was aware lawyer Richard Bourke had claimed both David Hicks and Mamdouh Habib had been tortured.

“I have asked for inquiries to be made as to whether there have been any further developments,” he said in answer to a question from Brendan O’Connor (ALP, Vic).

Mr O’Connor asked could he confirm whether Hicks and Habib had been tortured as Mr Bourke claimed.

Mr Ruddock said Red Cross officials visited Guantanamo Bay recently and released a report on their findings.

“It was an unusual report because it indicated they had some disagreement with the practice of ongoing detention of people in this circumstance,” he said.

"That is a matter about which this government has a different view but they did raise that matter.

“In the context of torture, having only seen them in the last few weeks, they gave no indication in their report that torture was evidenced.”

Mr Ruddock said Australian officials had visited Guantanamo Bay on a number of occasions and seen both detainees and there were no reports of any torture.

And as of yesterday:

Posted :Thu, 16 Oct 2003 16:01 AEST

No evidence Guantanamo detainees tortured, Ruddock says
Federal Attorney-General Philip Ruddock says he has seen no evidence inmates at the US military prison at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba have been tortured.

An Australian lawyer working for the Camp X-Ray inmates, Richard Bourke, claims prisoners, including two Australians, have been tortured.

US President George W Bush has denied the claim.

Mr Ruddock has told Parliament the Red Cross recently visited Guantanamo Bay, but in a report gave no indication that prisoners had been tortured.

“I’ve seen also the reports of Australian officials who have on a number of occasions visited Guantanamo Bay and seen both of the detainees and there were no reports to them of any torture so that’s the background to the matter,” Mr Ruddock said.

“I have seen the reports and I have asked for inquiries to be made as to whether there have been any further developments.”
http://www.abc.net.au/news/justin/weekly/newsnat-16oct2003-37.htm

Ohioguy

Would the link change your viewpoint. No!

I'm sure you'll find a very plausible reason from your vast closet to disregard the Red Cross even after reading it for yourself.

At this stage I strongly suggest you knock the topic on it's on the head.

Peace.

A “senior Red Cross official” in Washington has stated it is “unacceptable” to hold these detainees indefinitely. This is something i would have expected from a regime like Saddam Hussein’s.

Red Cross blasts Guantanamo, BBC, 10 October 2003

A top Red Cross official has broken with tradition by publicly attacking conditions at the US military base on Cuba where al-Qaeda suspects are being held. Christophe Girod - the senior Red Cross official in Washington - said it was unacceptable that the 600 detainees should be held indefinitely at Guantanamo Bay without legal safeguards.

The Red Cross is the only organisation with access to the detainees.

His criticism came as a group of American former judges, diplomats and military officers called on the US Supreme Court to examine the legality of holding the foreign nationals for almost two years, without trial, charge or access to lawyers.

Mr Girod said the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) was making the unusually blunt public statement because of a lack of action after previous private contacts with American officials.

“One cannot keep these detainees in this pattern, this situation, indefinitely,” he said during a visit to the US naval base where the Taleban and al-Qaeda suspects are being held.

‘Justice denied’ at Guantanamo](BBC NEWS | Americas | 'Justice denied' at Guantanamo), BBC, 9 October 2003

A diverse group of ex-judges, diplomats and former military lawyers is urging the US Supreme Court to intervene on behalf of hundreds of men being held without trial by the government.

They hope the top court will agree to review the detention of suspected al-Qaeda and Taleban members in the US military camp at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba.

US officials insist there are reasons for holding the alleged fighters and say they will get a fair legal hearing in due course. But opponents say it is already nearly two years since most of the detainees were captured and they should be afforded more rights now.

John Gibbons, a former appeals court judge, said justice was being “totally denied” to the detainees in Guantanamo. “They don’t have access to lawyers; they have had no hearings; they are just in limbo. That’s as clear an example of justice denied as you can find,” he said.

Choose a convention/declaration and then we deal with them one by one.

I suggest Ohioguy you read up on the news of the past. A good portion of the rebels werent somalis.

Secondly since when has distinctive markings been the catch all of defining a military outfit? I know for a fact the Red Cross and the Federation do not use that at all in their process of defining military combatants.

What are the rules of warfare Ohioguy? Dont hurt innocents? Well then the US hasnt obeyed the rules off warfare since 1945. Heck even before that.

Under Article 4: 1 of the ICRC Convention, Al Qaeda is party to an armed struggle and an armed force. Simple. They deserve their rights under the treaty something the US has signed on too.

CM,

Pathetic.

Here is what Human Rights Watch has to say…

Under the Geneva Conventions, captured fighters are considered prisoners of war (POWs) if they are members of an adversary state´s armed forces or are part of an identifiable militia group that abides by the laws of war. **Al-Qaeda members, who neither wear identifying insignia nor abide by the laws of war, probably would not quality. ** Taliban soldiers, as the armed forces of Afghanistan, may well be entitled to POW status. If there is doubt about a captured fighter’s status as a POW, the Geneva Conventions require that he be treated as such until a competent tribunal determines otherwise.

Look at the wording of the statement. Probably would not qualify. They are making no direct statement. Ask myvoice our resident lawyer. Statements like that can never stand in any court of law.

The issues are simple. An insignia can be worn underneath a shirt or whatever yet not be visible. If they did have an insignia would they be considered POWs then? You cant be seriously telling me a simple stupid emblem makes the difference between being a merc and a POW?

United States: Reports of Torture of Al-Qaeda Suspects - HRW](United States: Reports of Torture of Al-Qaeda Suspects | Human Rights Watch)

U.S.: Guantanamo Kids at Risk - HRW](U.S.: Guantanamo Kids at Risk (Human Rights Watch Press release, New York, April 24, 2003))

U.S. Officials Misstate Geneva Convention Requirements - HRW](http://www.hrw.org/press/2002/01/us012802-ltr.htm)

U.S.: Growing Problem Of Guantanamo Detainees - HRW](http://www.hrw.org/press/2002/05/guantanamo.htm)

American Double Standards about the Geneva Convention - HRW](Double Standards | Human Rights Watch)

There are many more, but I did not want you to be accused of selectively quoting from Human Rights Watch. :slight_smile:

I do believe malik posted an article directly related to the geneva convention. So why dont you comment on that view point held by HRW?

Who cares...guab jamun khilayein kya in terrorists koh? I think US is being too lax. Do unto them what they have done to others...

Do unto them what they have done to others

So how do you know the difference between them in that case?

....there are people starving in africa and we are worried about how terrorists in prisons are being treated....nice humanity you all have...

“I do believe malik posted an article directly related to the geneva convention. So why dont you comment on that view point held by HRW?”

Perhaps you missed this:

Bush Says Geneva Convention Applies To Taliban, Not al-Qaida
Date: February 7, 2002

Washington – President Bush has determined that the Geneva Convention applies to members of the Taliban militia, but not to members of the international al-Qaida terrorist network, says White House spokesman Ari Fleischer.

“Under Article 4 of the Geneva Convention, however, Taliban detainees are not entitled to POW [prisoner of war] status,” Fleischer said February 7.

“To qualify as POWs under Article 4, al-Qaida and Taliban detainees would have to have satisfied four conditions: they would have to be part of a military hierarchy, they would have to have worn uniforms or other distinctive signs visible at a distance, they would have to have carried arms openly, and they would have had to have conducted their military operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war,” he said.

The Geneva Conventions set international standards for the humane treatment of prisoners of war. Specifically, Fleischer referred to the Convention (III) Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War, August 12, 1949, and entered into force October 21, 1950.

Fleischer said the war on terrorism is a war not envisaged when the Geneva Conventions were signed in 1949.

However, Fleischer said the United States will continue to “treat all Taliban and al-Qaida detainees in Guantanamo Bay humanely and consistent with the principles of the Geneva Convention. They will continue to receive three appropriate meals a day, excellent medical care, clothing, shelter, showers, and the opportunity to worship. The International Committee of the Red Cross can visit each detainee privately.”

While the United States has not recognized the Taliban regime as the legitimate Afghani government, Bush determined that the Taliban members are covered by the conventions, which Afghanistan is a party to, he said.

He said the al-Qaida detainees cannot be considered prisoners of war is because they are not a state party to the Geneva Conventions, and their members are not entitled to POW status.

“In this war, global terrorists transcend national boundaries and internationally target the innocent. The president has maintained the United States’ commitment to the principles of the Geneva Convention, while recognizing that the convention simply does not cover every situation in which people may be captured or detained by military forces, as we see in Afghanistan today,” Fleischer said.

Currently, the United States is detaining 186 members of the Taliban militia and al-Qaida terrorist group at Camp X-ray at the Guantanamo Naval Base in Cuba.

This is indeed the correct answer. The Taliban did not wear uniforms and they did not obey the laws of war, particularly in thier dealings with the Northern Alliance. The Al Qaeda are foreign fighters, and should not have been on the battlefield to begin with. Now you may argue that they were there as religious zealots. (were not the Northern alliance muslims too?), and that they do not require permission from their govenment to participate in a war, but the rules on mercenary participation in foreign wars, as well as clear identification of uniforms are quite clear.

Human Rights Watch brought up the issue of TORTURE, but SINCE that was brought up a number of governments, as well as the Red Cross have visited, and have raised no such concerns. From a realistic perspective the prisoners are being treated according to the Geneva convention, so what precisely is your complaint?

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Ghungru: *
....there are people starving in africa and we are worried about how **terrorists
* in prisons are being treated....nice humanity you all have...
[/QUOTE]

"Terrorists"? Is that for real? Since when did they magically become transformed from detainees into terrorists? When was the independent trial held and who was the judge? For goodness' sake... they're being held in limbo, no charges passed against them yet, they're still detainees. A small handful of those being held at Guantanamo have been released back to Pakistan or Afghanistan, they were subsequently found not to have been responsible for any crime. So be careful before you assume the role of judge jury and executioner in one breath.

And as for "people starving in africa" - yeah, why don't you tell that to Dubby and his cronies, before they throw themselves infront of Congress again to beg for another $87 billion that could go towards Aids orphanages and anti-retrovirals instead. Nice humanity they have.

Red Cross blasts Guantanamo, BBC

Nadia,

Carefully read the article you have posted. There are absolutely no allegations of any physical torture, other than a lawyer who has never been to Guantanamo, and who has clear ulterior motives for making a public stink. The US was "blasted" for lack of timeliness of upcoming trials, and that some prisoners are depressed at the prospect of ongoing incarceration. We know that. The Red Cross has no complaints about the physical care of the detainees.

Now why trials have not been started? I do not know. They ought to get on with it. But I have little sympathy for those who went to a foreign land to participate in a civil war, and found themselves fighting the US. I am more than a little pleased that Jihadi extremists who go to someone elses country to cause mayhem will realize that they are not protected under the Geneva convention, and that they may be incarcerated for their mercenary ways. Tough crap.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by CM: *
Look at the wording of the statement. Probably would not qualify. They are making no direct statement. Ask myvoice our resident lawyer. Statements like that can never stand in any court of law.
[/QUOTE]

I've been away for a while doing my lawyerly duty for victims of government abuse right here in the good old USA.

It seems as if OG has quite accurately and succinctly applied the facts to the international law dealing with these subjects. There does not seem to be any legitimate argument for claiming Al Qaeda fighters fall within the definition of POW. For Human Rights Watch (of all groups) to acknowledge that they "probably would not qualify" as POWs is a pretty remarkable admission. If you don't want to read and understand the actual law as posted and explained by OG, you ought to at least get sobered up a little by the HRW statement.

As to the Taliban, the arguments for treating them as non-POWs under a strict interpretation of the Conventions is at least as strong as arguments for treating them as POWs. It is probably a pretty wise choice to treat them differently from Al Qaeda from a political standpoint. But that is more a political decision than a legal one.

Now, let's get to the torture issue. It appears as if the anti-American crowd wants to equate prolonged detention without charges to torture. The ICRC is complaining about prolonged detention NOT torture. They have not equated the two. As the internationally recognized monitors of treatment of detainees and/or POWs, they have not publicly stated that any torture is occuring.

There are lots of things you can complain about regarding US policies and still be intellectually honest. You are not being intellectually honest when you scream "TORTURE" and then support your argument with statements by the ICRC which oppose prolonged detention without charges.

OhioGuy,

Thanks for your reply. Yes you are accurate, the Red Cross has not (yet) made any complaints about the physical care of the detainees. Mental care is an entirely other issue:

“The open-endedness of the situation and its impact on the mental health of the population has become a major problem” - this was not reported by a “lawyer who has never been to Guantanamo”. This statement re: the Guantanmo detainees’ mental health was made by Christophe Girod, the senior Red Cross official (Washington), as mentioned in the BBC article above.

And don’t forget, for being kept in a state of perpetual legal limbo.

How do you deduce that they found themselves fighting the US ? Did you conduct a trial on each of them? Did you see some secret evidence against them? Did you give them an opportunity, which any TRUE judicial system would have, an opportunity to make a rebuttal? Did any of this occur? If not, then how do you determine that each of the Guantanamo detainees was “fighting the US”? i stated above (to someone else) that a small handful of the detainees have been infact sent back to their homes in Pakistan or Afghanistan. Because they were not found guilty of any crime. So before we start labelling them as ‘fighters’ or terrorists, let’s make sure that they are in fact guilty of committing a serious crime - and not simply innocent victims caught up in a legal quagmire that Dubya has created in Guantanamo.

Damaging an innocent person’s (yes, they are still innocent contrary to popular perceptions) mental health is not something i would expect from a democratic government - contrary to whatever garbage President Bush is spewing from the Oval Office, these individuals are not yet criminals in any legal sense of the word. Even prisoners of war legally get certain rights accorded to them.

MyVoice,

It appears as if the anti-American crowd…<<
Yes it’s always the “anti-American crowd”. When there is no other escape, blame it on the “anti-Americans” or the lefties, or the hippies, or the Chomskyites. It’s no better than those who blame everything on Zionists or Jews.