Re: Can pure Islamic thinking only exist in underdeveloped or repressive environments
Development has occured more or less consistently since the big bang. It will be naiveto think that it could not happen without modernity (the definition of which is arbitrary).
Re: Can pure Islamic thinking only exist in underdeveloped or repressive environments
No, that is rubbish. In a pure thinking Islamic country is like saying a perfect government. If we did have that then every Islamic country would look like Hong Kong at night.
Re: Can pure Islamic thinking only exist in underdeveloped or repressive environments
First off, its a little inaccurate to say that development has been consistently occurring. Nevertheless thats just a fine point.
Fair enough, you can question the theory. Note though that what you consider naive is not my own theory (and you have reversed the theory in stating it), it is theprevailing hypothesis in sociology. Contemporary theories of development and modernity do suggest a strong correlation. It is not that modernity is a precondition, but that as societies develop, they tend to grant adopt social values and structures characteristic of modern societies. See also this.
Whether or not modernity is inevitable ofcourse fails to address the question of it being prevalent. Do you think those who do live in modern environments have two modes of thought?
Re: Can pure Islamic thinking only exist in underdeveloped or repressive environments
Obviously I am not the only one requesting you to be clear on your thoughts before typing. So its not really true that your writing made me confused. It is you who come out as confused writer.
Off course anything can be written in short sentences and bullet points. Sorry that you do not know how. 
You just seem to be throwing words in random manner.
Re: Can pure Islamic thinking only exist in underdeveloped or repressive environments
Obviously I am not the only one requesting you to be clear on your thoughts before typing. So its not really true that your writing made me confused. It is you who come out as confused writer.
Off course anything can be written in short sentences and bullet points. Sorry that you do not know how. :( You just seem to be throwing words in random manner.
Im afraid there are far too many bridges of context to cross between you and me. There were fewer with kakaballi therefore I tried to correct where he was missing the point or operating with an incorrect understanding of these concepts. With you, unless you can point to specific things where you think there is confusion, I cannot indulge you.
Re: Can pure Islamic thinking only exist in underdeveloped or repressive environments
Thanks for acknowledging the difference of position between me and you on some points you raised but then your statements kept going in many directions. I already posted above why I had problem the way you brought your statements. I sincerely gave it a chance to have good discussion.
Anyhow, till you clearly state what you are trying to say, I will keep enjoying your enlightening posts in this thread. 
Re: Can pure Islamic thinking only exist in underdeveloped or repressive environments
Okay, so lets summarize your confusion. You raised two points, which are basically assumptions on intent (which should be irrelevant to the discussion anyway).
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You say words like modern and underdeveloped and then say forget about superior or inferior.
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Yes. Because I'm not interested in making value judgments, I'd rather discuss what can be established with somewhat measurable means. I dont want to know whats good or bad atleast at the moment.
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You did try to equate word Islamic to underdeveloped. Not really true. Islam does not put gun to people who want to progress. ( anti-Islamics do)
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The Islamic world, by and large, does come into the category of developing countries. This is not a controversial thing. That Islam does not put a gun to people who want to progress, great. I never claimed that it did, infact I've repeatedly been saying that people have taken different strategies in reacting to modernity. Most of the world is developing, and similar reflections occur in many other parts of the world, such as China and South-East Asia (read up on the asian values debates)
Re: Can pure Islamic thinking only exist in underdeveloped or repressive environments
Islam if we take it from the quran then it is very different from the one we are taught by our mawlanas.
Islam in the quran is a way of life that is consistent with god as well as humanity. Islam that is created by mawlanas is inconsistent with the quran as well as real world and humanity.
In order to bring real islam to life we must kill the fake islam of fake ulema of islam.
prof a rafiq akhtar
Dr Israr ahmed
Re: Can pure Islamic thinking only exist in underdeveloped or repressive environments
1- Modernization, civilizaton are time related terms.
2- When muslims were really muslims collectively, they were most modern and civilzed.
3- There are several non-muslim countries which are nowhere close to being modern or civilized.
Answer to the question is No.
this...
and what do you mean by "pure islamic thinking"??? if it means for one to believe that his actions in this life should follow deen islaam and he should be following the sharia to the best he can, then it has nothing to do with "development" or otherwise, "repressiveness" or otherwise. it only needs a sane and logical mind to think this way....
and i believe that to think "that pure islamic thinking only exists in underdeveloped or repressive environment" is a repressive and underdeveloped attitude itself
Re: Can pure Islamic thinking only exist in underdeveloped or repressive environments
this...
and what do you mean by "pure islamic thinking"??? if it means for one to believe that his actions in this life should follow deen islaam and he should be following the sharia to the best he can, then it has nothing to do with "development" or otherwise, "repressiveness" or otherwise. it only needs a sane and logical mind to think this way....
and i believe that to think "that pure islamic thinking only exists in underdeveloped or repressive environment" is a repressive and underdeveloped attitude itself
you guys are the ones who say I said something about being civilized. each of these terms developed, civilized and modern means something different and they are not interchangeable. it has been clarified in the thread since posting that I am using developed and modern with a particular sociological meaning, as opposed to just meaning advanced. development means development in the sense that countries today are categorized as developing, developed and modern in the sense of the sort of social structures and values that have emerged in the last two centuries, that are associated with the developed world today.
'pure' Islamic thinking is referring to thinking where judgments about good and bad, legal and illegal would be made solely on the basis of Islam, as opposed to my hypothesis, which is that in those in modern (in the sense described) environments think with two different systems of thought and values, which are then reconciled in some subjective way.
Re: Can pure Islamic thinking only exist in underdeveloped or repressive environments
you guys are the ones who say I said something about being civilized. each of these terms developed, civilized and modern means something different and they are not interchangeable. it has been clarified in the thread since posting that I am using developed and modern with a particular sociological meaning, as opposed to just meaning advanced. development means development in the sense that countries today are categorized as developing, developed and modern in the sense of the sort of social structures and values that have emerged in the last two centuries, that are associated with the developed world today.
'pure' Islamic thinking is referring to thinking where judgments about good and bad, legal and illegal would be made solely on the basis of Islam, as opposed to my hypothesis, which is that in those in modern (in the sense described) environments think with two different systems of thought and values, which are then reconciled in some subjective way.
ok fair enough... that's the easy way out. i let you go.
Re: Can pure Islamic thinking only exist in underdeveloped or repressive environments
Peace ravage
I was just passing and saw this thread ... I have browsed through the responses so far. To my understanding people are being led to entertain a dichotomy that either doesn't exist or they have understood the dichotomy within the confines of how you described it to them causing them to react.
Firstly, to answer the main thread question. "Can pure Islamic thinking .... " My answer is pure Islamic thinking may occur everywhere and anywhere. A thought is a thought it does not bear fruit by itself ... action needs to follow. So it is absolutely feasible for pure Islamic thought to exist anywhere in any environment. This is a logical conclusion because turning to evidence in this matter is a misnoma. It is a condition of the Muslim to believe that "Islam" in its purest sense is accessible to all after the demise of RasoolAllah (SAW), albeit to various degrees of hindrances.
It is true that repressed societies are likely to look to other frameworks to 'free' them from their current predicaments. Therefore I would say that "outward" Islamic support i.e. Shari'ah is often sought in the societies that you refer to as underdeveloped.
But the question is not about appeal to the Shari'ah ... it is about "Pure Islamic thought". We need to understand the domains of what we are discussing here in order to do justice to the question. Does pure Islamic thought mean "zeal" for Islam, greatest depth of adherence to traditions, or for that matter a trend that leads to constant modernity. There was a time when the Muslims were considered the most "modern". It is in fact none of these.
On one hand we have the best of humanity and the best of the followers making the best socieites in around 14-15 hundred years ago, but on the other hand we have a bias to believe that we are living in the most liberated times, the height of humanity today. Some argue that Islam was always meant to allow the development of society towards modernity and yet others say that development is an abomination.
To be quite honest we are choosing from the wrong set of parameters to make this decision. What makes the times of RasoolAllah (SAW) the best? The answer is purely spiritual. They are best because He (SAW) was there being a mercy to those around him in his time. The purest Islamic thought is that what came from RasoolAllah (SAW) as and when those blessed thoughts came from him.
The essence of the height of Islam is "justice" and "morality" these are the measures of "Pure Islamic thought" so as can be seen a society can be advanced technology or not culturally rich or not, as far as the level of justice and morality is peaked then we have "pure Islamic thought".
Conservatism produces Liberism and vice-versa ... Islam is about selective aspects of both ... There is only one permissible extreme position in Islam and that is to be "extremely good" ... A totally charitable state.
Re: Can pure Islamic thinking only exist in underdeveloped or repressive environments
peace to you psyah
Purity in context of this thread is a question of excluding other influences, as opposed to being good or bad. To me, if someone is only thinking with an Islamic cap on (considering only sources that have some connection to Quran, Hadis or their interpretation) that is pure Islamic thought. It could very well be wrong Islamic thought either because it used the wrong sources or it made the wrong conclusion, but that is not relevant.
Secondly as I clarified, modernity along with being a word used in everyday life, has a particular specialized meaning which I intended to refer to. I dont think Muslim society could at any point be considered modern, atleast not if you were referring to the moors and all.
As for underdeveloped countries... the reason they were mentioned is not because they demand sharia (only some do), but because they did not experience the particular psychological effects modern life has. The assumption is that in our present times, development is strongly correlated with modernization. Therefore if you are not modernized, you are living in a country that is either underdeveloped, or modernization is being repressed, typically by the state as in the case of the slightly more developed countries of Iran and Saudi Arabia.
Lets consider those of us who do live in developed and modern countries: do we think in two ways, then try to synthesize them in some way.. one that is derived from the religious tradition, has religious sources as references, and the other derived from modern ideas, has modern arguments contextualizing it. How we mesh those two together consumes a lot of our intellectual energy. I think so. Do we perform two kinds of behaviour, one that has its roots in Islam, the other that has its roots in modern life. I think so. If we are able to watch the TV or drive a car or wear jeans or send kids to school in uniform with a tie and accept that these are western, modern inventions, if we accept that physical processes have been vastly influenced by modernity, then why do we resist the idea that mental processes are vastly influenced by modernity?
Presumably those who do not live in modern societies, are exposed to less modern influences, and therefore are able to operate with a more exclusively Islamic mindset (thus the question of purity). Therefore, are those who live in underdeveloped, or repressive societies the ones who have purely Islamic thoughts?
Re: Can pure Islamic thinking only exist in underdeveloped or repressive environments
Peace again
Ok now we can work with this - To clarify:
a) Pure Islamic Thinking = Islamic thought based on Qur'an, Hadith whether it is rightly or wrongly implemented is the only source of thinking allowed or encouraged.
b) Modernity = The act of becoming like societies that lead the world in culture and technology at a given point in time. (I did mean the fairly early Muslims)
c) Underdeveloped country = may be aspiring or not aspiring to be modern, but nonetheless has fewer resources and facilities at harder to reach locations.
Claim 1) The underdeveloped countries do not experience the particular psychological effects of modern life.
Assumption - In our present times, development is strongly correlated with modernization.
Conclusion - If you are not modernized, you are living in a country that is either underdeveloped, or the country is modernity repressed.
Claim 2) Those who live in modern-&-developed societies are subject to developed lifestyle therefore they will be subject to modern mindset, however we resist the idea that this is true.
Claim 3) Those who do not live in modern societies, are exposed to less modern influences, and therefore are able to operate with a more exclusively Islamic mindset (thus the question of purity). Therefore, are those who live in underdeveloped, or repressive societies the ones who have purely Islamic thoughts?
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Answer is no:
Firstly modern societies are actively selling modernity to repressed and underdeveloped societies. A psychosis is forming in the minds of the underdeveloped and repressed societies that modernity is good. Internet and Satellite TV have ensured that even underdeveloped societies can become modern in mindset. Proof: Pakistan people have TVs but inadequate roofing, teenagers have mobile phones but in adequate footwear.
Also Claim 2 could be true sometimes but some values in modern societies are based on Qur'an and hadith so this throws a confusing shockwave in to the clean theory that you present. Example equality of man and woman originates from Islam.
However some effects of modernity I agree are never experienced by underdeveloped countries and one of the best places to see evidence of this is the suicide records across the whole world. Developed modern life is really another word for SECULAR life and when we tear our hearts away from religion then we almost always suffer a great remorse that will eventually lead us to take our own lives that is the fault of modernity - secularization.
