Re: Brutal Murder of Ahmadi Husband and Wife in Pakistan
Its true that Ahmedis have been persecuted in Pakistan specially in the Zia era. Things are much better now and moving in the right direction. People are realizing that extremism is itself an evil and not a solution. Hope things get better soon.
What can happen anywhere? Ahmadis are only persecuted this bitterly in Islamic Republic of Pakistan and mostly since it became Islamic Republic in the 70s. Its not just some satanic people, the laws of Pakistan seek to actively persecute Ahmadis (example below). There are rallies in Pakistan every day, but how many do you see against such laws? There is wide spread support for such persecution in Pakistan. In reality its hard to find another country in the world which so proudly takes it upon itself to actively persecute its citizens at official level.
This is clearly a gross violation of human rights but how many in Islamic Republic Pakistanis do you see complaining about it?
Just to drive the point home let's see if a similar law would be enacted in India
how many would find it amusing?
Fact is Pakistani laws and its treatment of Ahmadis can only be compared to the dark ages (terms like witch-hunting and burning on cross come to mind – although they now hang you with the fan instead), and deobandis and Jammat Islami have made sure of that.
I am not even going to go into any discussions of why Ahmedi's were separated from the circle of Islam .. clearly the law code came into being to show our seperation from the Ahmedi's to remove confusion of the term "muslims"
however it doesnt show anywhere in the law , that one should kill or harm ahmedis... if any individual does it , then I will strongly detest that individual for his/her satanic deeds . No religion allows murder or harm to any individual .
mostly since it became Islamic Republic in the 70s.
Wrong, that was in the mid 50s, get your facts right.
Wrong, that was in the mid 50s, get your facts right.
In 50s there is one significant incident in 1953. Since 70s its more continuous as it has received official sanction.
I am not even going to go into any discussions of why Ahmedi's were separated from the circle of Islam
Of course you wont as it is a gross violation of human rights to persecute anyone like this or treat them as achoots of bar them from calling themselves whatever they like to call themselves or to profess their faith without fear.
It also reflects on the kind of religion some follow which has no regard for human rights.
Re: Brutal Murder of Ahmadi Husband and Wife in Pakistan
how dare people to say that Pakistan is not for harming or killing Ahmadies?
Zia himself said that
Ahmadiyyat is a cancer and has to be erased from this world
and the fuel Alim Online gave this people has caused a fire in which you probably don't want to die. If anyone would be a true Muslim and have the balls, he would speak against this violation. Maybe Allah has designed the way of the world like that and how the sun will rise from the West.
The Jews used to say As Samu Alaika to our Prophet and he was steadfast. Call anyone like that in Pakistan he will cut your head. Only a few Muslims are left in this world. The rest is just a bunch of hypocrites, rapists, murderers etc. who just utter to be Muslim, but their deeds show that they are truly the progeny of a unchaste woman, the progeny of Abu Jahl, the progeny of Satan himself!
You must have become an animal if you are ready to kill a woman expecting a child.
In 50s there is one significant incident in 1953. Since 70s its more continuous as it has received official sanction.
Even that incident was before the transition to the 'Islamic Republic of Pakistan'.
however it doesnt show anywhere in the law , that one should kill or harm ahmedis
There is a three year prison sentence. Read the text again.
There is a three year prison sentence. Read the text again.
It doesnt say anywhere that you will be imprisoned just because you are an Ahmedi . your basic rights are present and unharmed.
however in the best interest of Islam , any faith cant just be allowed to stand up and claim to be muslims whilst going against the very basics of Islam. Eg the followers of Osama bin laden or the terrorists ... they say they are imposing Islamic shariah , but they are killing mercilessly , which is not part of Islam and strictly against the teachings of the Sunnah.
Therefore it is our right to let the world know that they are not muslims. We are not killing them or harming them, we are just protecting our religion for being taken wrong.
thats exactly the case with Ahmediah faith. you have your own faith , it has nothing to do with Islam or muslims ... therefore the law is there to ensure no aggressive preaching happens ... coz it will only cause problems ...
I live in the west and the laws here do not allow aggressive preaching of any religion. to avoid unnecessary rifts .
Even that incident was before the transition to the 'Islamic Republic of Pakistan'.
Not sure what you mean. This and that doesn’t explain what you referring to.
However if you read history you will find that deobandi organisations and Jammat Islami (both opponents of Pakistan Movement) wanted a peace of Pakistani pie once Pakistan was made despite their opposition and used Ahmadi issue to gain credence among mostly Punjabi population. This movement was squashed by first marshal law in Pakistan in Lahore in 1953. Since then things were mostly quiet as government did not give in to the extremists’ demands. In 70s however tide began to turn when Bhutto gradually gave in to Mullah’s demands and an increasingly hostile environment towards Ahmadis was created soon after the Islamic Republic came into being in 70s.
Re: Brutal Murder of Ahmadi Husband and Wife in Pakistan
^err, all I am saying is you were wrong on both accounts, the anti-ahmediya riots in the 50s happened BEFORE the transition to the Islamic Republic of Pakistan in the 50s.
Re: Brutal Murder of Ahmadi Husband and Wife in Pakistan
One should start a Thread (better make it sticky) to thank Zia and his goons for the Persecution of Ahmadis.
But the best part of his works PPL in pakistan and in the neighborhood r reaping the rewards ..... So much for Islamic Republic of Pakistan
Kill those who don't defend themself but seek the Law of this country to protect them (not only Ahmadis but other minoroties, Women etc. etc.) and join hands with those who run around and blow/Slaughter up PPL wherever/whenever the mood strikes them
PPL celebrated today as if the Messiah has come and all their problems will be solved ...... Sad but true part of this whole Drama is Things will get only worse day by day
It doesnt say anywhere that you will be imprisoned just because you are an Ahmedi . your basic rights are present and unharmed.
Because Ahmadis are Muslim and declaring that makes them criminals under this law which is a violation of human rights.
I am guessing your particular faith does not have much respect for human rights but this is a separate issue. The prevailing human rights laws are quite clear on this and Pakistan is a signatory of universal declaration of human rights which clearly forbids this sort of persecution. This takes us back to the discussion on Islamic Republic as its since then that these commonly acceptable human rights have been trampled over. Its not just Ahmadis even xtians and Hindu some of whom have been living in this area for centuries and were pretty much equal citizens till 1973 became achoots overnight since Islamic Republic came into being. This was really a step backward and it is difficult for Pakistan and Pakistanis to blame other countries such as Indians for violation of human rights when their own home is not in order. It also reflects on non-Ahmadi Islam as not being a religion of tolerance and respect.
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however in the best interest of Islam , any faith cant just be allowed to stand up and claim to be muslims whilst going against the very basics of Islam. Eg the followers of Osama bin laden or the terrorists ... they say they are imposing Islamic shariah , but they are killing mercilessly , which is not part of Islam and strictly against the teachings of the Sunnah.
Therefore it is our right to let the world know that they are not muslims. We are not killing them or harming them, we are just protecting our religion for being taken wrong.
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What has that got to do with Ahmadis. It is a Wahabi/Deobandi phenomenon. No one (at least no state) has declared Osama non-Muslim as far as I am aware. In fact he is still revered by many.
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thats exactly the case with Ahmediah faith. you have your own faith , it has nothing to do with Islam or muslims ... therefore the law is there to ensure no aggressive preaching happens ... coz it will only cause problems ...
I live in the west and the laws here do not allow aggressive preaching of any religion. to avoid unnecessary rifts .
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You can not stop people from calling themselves what they consider themselves. You can agree or disagree with it but you can’t not bar others form holding their opinion particularly about themselves. In west no one persecutes Ahmadis for calling themselves Muslims and preaching and professing their faith so your example on west is wrong and misplaced.
^err, all I am saying is you were wrong on both accounts, the anti-ahmediya riots in the 50s happened BEFORE the transition to the Islamic Republic of Pakistan in the 50s.
I'll say it again :), molvis did try to make it Islamic Republic in 50s but failed, in 70s they succeeded and its downhill form then on, not just for Ahmadis but for every peace and progress loving Pakistani.
One should start a Thread (better make it sticky) to thank Zia and his goons for the Persecution of Ahmadis.
But the best part of his works PPL in pakistan and in the neighborhood r reaping the rewards ..... So much for Islamic Republic of Pakistan
Kill those who don't defend themself but seek the Law of this country to protect them (not only Ahmadis but other minoroties, Women etc. etc.) and join hands with those who run around and blow/Slaughter up PPL wherever/whenever the mood strikes them
PPL celebrated today as if the Messiah has come and all their problems will be solved ...... Sad but true part of this whole Drama is Things will get only worse day by day
Zia is a controversial figure, and an illegit military dictator just like his brother Musharraf. Not everyone in Pakistan endorses him, even though you seem to have a habit of bashing Pakistanis based on your own agenda here. I hate Zia, and that includes any religious prosecution he might have indulged in, along with his other kartoots.
Test01, I respect all religions alike. because that is between God and the individual. We are not there to judge.
You guys broke away from the basic teachings of islam and created a new faith . so give it some other name. why negate the Islam's basic teachings and then try to become part of it by continueing to call yourselves with the same name as us muslims ?
Osama bin laden reference was an example and by no means a comparison to your religion.
Zia is a controversial figure, and an illegit military dictator just like his brother Musharraf. Not everyone in Pakistan endorses him, even though you seem to have a habit of bashing Pakistanis based on your own agenda here. I hate Zia, and that includes any religious prosecution he might have indulged in, along with his other kartoots.
Sorry Sir ..... just to put the record straight ..... i was born in Pakistan, raised there and my parents moved to Europe bcoz of Zia and his Chamchas kartoots ..... not that we wanted it but when confronted with death u rather become refugee .... BTW that's what Holy Prophet Muhammad PBUH did
I don't have a Agenda of Bashing pakistan or pakistanis. I'm just pointing out the Obvious Sir ..... if u have a problem with it well then so be it ....... Tell me a few occasions PPL of Pakistan had to celebrate some long lasting achievements and please don't mention the removal of Mushy as Zardari came Along and if u wanna mention CJ restoration well then just wait and see these very PPL will be on the streets in a few months time again
Just take a leaf out of pakistans History and u may get my point
When there is no Unity, no equal civil rights for all citizens, no safe environment for dialog on controversal matters, no regard for the constitution by the Top Leaders of Country, no more respect of a human life then tell me when i write this IS THIS BASHING PAKISTANI
Do u believe those who did the killing and countless other such acts were no Pakistanis or atleast were not supported by Pakistanis and u know better than me there r a lot of Pakistanis who condone such acts
Even here on GS when such things r on for discussion some just derail the whole thing and at times point out that Ahmadis shouldn't call themselve MUSLIMs in the public this way they can live safely ......
A huge number of terrorist activities worldwide can be traced back to have its origin in Pakistan or Pakistani involvement and don't tell me that was all caused by 9/11 ..... the structures were already there well before and u should know by now who laid the foundation of the cancer which is destroying not only the Nation but the Image of Islam as a Perfect way Life
That's what i'm bashing .... if u disagree it's ur very right to do so Sir
Test01, I respect all religions alike. because that is between God and the individual. We are not there to judge.
You guys broke away from the basic teachings of islam and created a new faith . so give it some other name. why negate the Islam's basic teachings and then try to become part of it by continueing to call yourselves with the same name as us muslims ?
Osama bin laden reference was an example and by no means a comparison to your religion.
Basic Teaching or Islams are
Kalima
Prayer
Fast
Zakat
Hajj
*Were did they break away? *
Do they have a new Book? A new faith requires a new book like you are stating that. They have the faith the true Muslims lived and died for at the time of our Prophet Muhammad (saw)
Do they now pray 6 times a day? or 3 times? or only once? Do they fast 10 days instead of 20+? Do they go for Hajj to Qadian? Do they say La Illaha Ilallah Ahmad' Rasoolillah? Do they pay a different zakat?
You and Muslims? Tell that Allah on Judgement Day, maybe he believes you, we NOT!
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You guys broke away from the basic teachings of islam and created a new faith .
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How? Besides all sects consider each other away from teachings of Islam and there are fatwas to that effect. Are Shias strictly speaking muslims according to Sunnis? Don’t make me quote fatwas on that :)
Same with other sects.
How does it give one group right to forcibly stop other group from calling themselves Muslim?
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so give it some other name.
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They are called Ahmadi Muslims as opposed to Shia Muslims or Sunni Muslims...so the problem is not of identity but of persecution. This law is strictly there to persecute Ahmadis so over time they fade out and are eliminated.
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why negate the Islam's basic teachings and then try to become part of it by continueing to call yourselves with the same name as us muslims ?
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What basic teachings? Please elaborate.
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Osama bin laden reference was an example and by no means a comparison to your religion.
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Bad example. Osama is a wahabi terrorist while Ahmadis are the most peaceful sect there is.
Re: Brutal Murder of Ahmadi Husband and Wife in Pakistan
[note]Thread has now turned into a religious debate[/note]