Originally posted by balram: *
**back on topic, so how did th guniuses conclude that being american is unislamic? *
The type of geniuses we are talking about have conclused many things that hardly anyone agrees with, thats why they are a lil cultish group.
*i think there are 6+ millions of muslims in america and only a tiny portion of that are immigrants from so called 'real islamic' places. so why do these geniuses here think this large number of people still follow islam? *
I missed your point here. following islam and being american or british or canadian or for that matter a resident of burkina faso, lesotho and burundi..are not mutually exclusive.
I am a muslim and I am american. I dont see any clash there.
*america and india are the only two places where mosqes were built for the religion and people instead of for cowering to saudi aid. *
the people who were instrumental in building mosques in the UK, canada and other places may disagree with that statement. additionally there are many places with mosques that have zilch to do with saudi aid.
if you don't like america so much
If i dinn like US, i wont be here :)
if your point is targetted towards some other esteemed participants. I agree. and actually up the ante one more. I suggest that they leave UK, US etc and go somewhere else.
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*Originally posted by balram: *
back on topic, so how did th guniuses conclude that being american is unislamic? i think there are 6+ millions of muslims in america and only a tiny portion of that are immigrants from so called 'real islamic' places. so why do these geniuses here think this large number of people still follow islam? america and india are the only two places where mosqes were built for the religion and people instead of for cowering to saudi aid.
if you don't like america so much, why don't you write to musharaf and jamali to stop asking for american goods including arsenal? here right here is my challenge to each of you: write two sentences directed at musharaf telling him that you disagree with his policy of buying american goods, services or his taking american aid in cash or kind. if you have an iota of shame you will write this, right here. We'll see!
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Nationalism is Haram;
" ...People should give up their pride in nations because this is a coal from the coals of hell-fire. If they do not give this up Allah (Subhanahu Wa Ta'aala) will consider them lower than a lowly worm which pushes itself through khur (faeces)." [abu Dawd and Tirmidhi].
In the Hadith recorded in Mishkat al-Masabith, the Messenger of Allah (Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam) said, "He who calls for `Asabiyyah is as if he bit his father's genitals"
" ...People should give up their pride in nations because this is a coal from the coals of hell-fire. If they do not give this up Allah (Subhanahu Wa Ta'aala) will consider them lower than a lowly worm which pushes itself through khur (faeces)." [abu Dawd and Tirmidhi].
In the Hadith recorded in Mishkat al-Masabith, the Messenger of Allah (Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam) said, "He who calls for `Asabiyyah is as if he bit his father's genitals"
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You would think that an intellectual conversation (and particularly one where God's intentions are being discussed) could do without references to worms crawling through crap and biting your father's genitals. Were all hadith written so crudely? It's not exactly the intelligent crowd these writings were going after, eh?
You would think that an intellectual conversation (and particularly one where God's intentions are being discussed) could do without references to worms crawling through crap and biting your father's genitals. Were all hadith written so crudely? It's not exactly the intelligent crowd these writings were going after, eh?
[/QUOTE]
" ...People should give up their pride in nations because this is a coal from the coals of hell-fire. If they do not give this up Allah (Subhanahu Wa Ta'aala) will consider them lower than a lowly worm which pushes itself through khur (faeces)." [abu Dawd and Tirmidhi].
In the Hadith recorded in Mishkat al-Masabith, the Messenger of Allah (Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam) said, "He who calls for `Asabiyyah is as if he bit his father's genitals"
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you are kidding, right? can anyone else confirm this stuff is really in there? that'd confirm a lot of things to a lot of people.
Hadetth like this make me cringe. I personally doubt that they are authentic. and that is why we have to be very careful in looking ast ahadeeth, they may be made up along the way or narrated improperly.
anyways as far as nations go, the issue is not with existence of nations but nationalism which was a huge problem in arab lands in those days (and even today)
Even during the days of the prophet there were muslims living in other countries which were seperate natiosn and there was no issue with that.
Quran says
"O mankind! Truly, We have created you from male and female and have made you into nations and tribes, so that you may know one another. Indeed the most noblest amongst you, in the sight of Allaah, is he who has the most taqwaa." [Surat-ul-Hujuraat (49): 13]
the prophet said
"Indeed there is no excellence that an Arab possesses OVER a non-Arab, nor a non-Arab over an Arab. Nor is there (an excellence) of a white man over a black man, or a black man over a white man, except by TAQWAA (submissive obedience to Allaah)." [Saheeh - Reported by Ahmad (5/411) and authenticated by Ibn Taimiyyah in Al-lqtidaa (p.69)]
so belonging to nations is not an issue, nationalism is, just like belonging to races is a fact of life, but racism is wrong.
for non muslims who dont know, there are many categories of hadeeth, there are even weak hadeeth which can in no way be confirmed, but someone just said oh yah i heard so and so said that the prophet said this.
The hadeeth that were narrated with the least amount of people between teh source and the narrator and confirmed by multiple spurces are considered strong. And even those can not be 100% guaranteed.
The weak ones, well I dont even know why we bother with them. I dont know the status of teh hadeeth posted by Kossar, but even if they are authentic or th emessage from them is authentic, he has def taken it out of context.
belonging to a nation is not nationalism. he missed that fine point.
<<Indeed there is no excellence that an Arab possesses OVER a non-Arab, nor a non-Arab over an Arab. Nor is there (an excellence) of a white man over a black man, or a black man over a white man, except by TAQWAA (submissive obedience to Allaah)." [Saheeh - Reported by Ahmad (5/411) and authenticated by Ibn Taimiyyah in Al-lqtidaa (p.69)] >>
So by submission to Allah, muslims are better than others eh? I don’t see this as a corrupting influence not at all.
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*Originally posted by Kosser_M: *
And you comment about nationalism is????
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Nation states are a necessity. What are the options? Feudal state? Religous state? Socialist state? I would bite the genitals off a feces-eating worm before I believe those are better options.
so Saif, Kosser and others who think america is anti islam or that true muslims should not love america, are you then put your keyboard to where your mouth is and take my challenge? just a few words - two sentences addressed to musharraf is all I ask, to prove that you’re not being hypocritical. what do I want you to write? check para-2 in following:
well religions are kinda like that arent they, belief in Allah, salvation in christ, favor of yehweh etc etc. although teh caveat does exist that no one knows who will go to heaven, we can do stuff to make our chances greater.
**This is similar to comments made daily by neo nazi thugs **
The point is about being sellouts. You can call humza Yusus a sellout because he does not belong to teh freak circus of HT. I can consider Ht ppl sellouts for living in the western capitalist (read Haram per HT definition) system and taking full advantage of schools, universities, infrastructure, health and technology.
Yeah who’s a sellout now boy..
**and they don’t have any capacity to think either! **
well i guess then you and them have more in common than just the fascist extremist views
Hamza yusuf is sellout for calling non muslims martrys and shaheed. he also calls for muslims to declare jihad on other muslims then contradicts himself by saying also only a state authority can declare jihad?
My yusuf can belong to any jammah he like salafi tableegh whoever but if you compromise islam you get exposed and accounted.
Your argument about living in western society is complete rubbish and similar to the comments i used to hear from neo nazi thugs on streets of london.
I live in pakistan and am against the system of kufr here also so what shall i do go to timbuktoo
As for circle of freaks i wonder what circle of freak will accept a fraudia on second thoughts your in the right place and country for that.
Hamza yusuf is sellout for calling non muslims martrys and shaheed. he also calls for muslims to declare jihad on other muslims then contradicts himself by saying also only a state authority can declare jihad? **
well soem authority needs to declare a jihad, not every two bit lallo punjoo group.
*Your argument about living in western society is complete rubbish and similar to the comments i used to hear from neo nazi thugs on streets of london. *
why? I am not saying paki go home, I am talkign abotu someone being a sellout. For someone to competely dislike som system but to take advantage of that via education and jobs etc is being a sellout. You can scream all you want about my commenst sounding like some skinheads, the diofference is that they say it out of hate and racism. I am just asking why would one benefit from teh resources of a place and a system they are so against.
*I live in pakistan and am against the system of kufr here also so what shall i do go to timbuktoo *
I dont know, that is your problem. figure it out. or is it too inconvenient?
btw is timbuktoo a model of your system :D
*As for circle of freaks i wonder what circle of freak will accept a fraudia *
oh none will because I dont belong their. they do however specialize in getting freaks like themselves in their secret halqaas.
*on second thoughts your in the right place and country for that. *
1 on second thought ( not thoughts)
2 you are (not your)
Right,.. I believe it was you that claims every country as kufr, so what difference does it make where I live. I dont care, but you do, so why were u in the Uk to begin with?
