Re: Blasphemy Law
Mere bhai, U have raised very important issue belonging to muslims in India. Keep up raising such issues for better meals for muslims in India. U will do good service to them.
Now come clean on secularism. with the amendment to allow cow slaughtering. U like or dislike it?
as a muslim i do not like ban on cow slaughter....
i think islam is sufficient to teach me tolerance and value of human life....
Re: Blasphemy Law
Its ur right to like or dislike anything. And U know it very well just like me that cow meat is available in the market, even after fierce opposition from hindus who term this as an attack on their religion. This is perfect proof that things are not bad in India as it is touted to be.
I too think that Islam is sufficient to teach us tolerance and values of human lives. But U cant ignore the fact that misinterpretation of Islam is at full swing among muslims. Which is resulting in rise of extremism in India. Dont U feel that we need to work on that to make India a better place? Or U are among them who are watching the things being unfolded with hopes of Islamic rule in mind? Brother, I tell U from my experience that it is most unfortunate and deadly development taking place in India. This is something which is giving a potent weapon in the hands of Modi and co. who keep telling their ppls that " See, muslims are uniting together to throw U guys out of India" 
. And who can know that better than U that religion is often used to make ppls feel insecure. Its time that Indian muslims wake up to this reality.
And try to use different kinds of available meats instead of delicious cow. Hindus can take this as respect to their religion. But will muslims be able to deprive themselves of the delicacy? It is million dollar question.
I honestly want like-minded muslims like U to work on that. U can do that as a born muslim. I can go and educate hindus against religious intolerance. And we can only win this battle when fighting together.
And its ur bad habit to ignore questions while discussing, plz try to improve it. U have responsibilities as a Mod.
Re: Blasphemy Law
That wasn't just for Christians, it was for everyone. I never said anything about Shias. The ones that are killing them for no valid reason are planning to divide the ummah.
you were talking about those who mock other religions that's why i mentioned shias, they are of the same faith yet they're the target of many shootings. anyhu, is there such a thing as a "valid" reason to kill?
Re: Blasphemy Law
Its ur right to like or dislike anything. And U know it very well just like me that cow meat is available in the market, even after fierce opposition from hindus who term this as an attack on their religion. This is perfect proof that things are not bad in India as it is touted to be.
By this analogy, Pakistan is also not bad place, where Hindus can sell liquor in rural Sindh, instead of it being haram in Islam
Re: Blasphemy Law
you were talking about those who mock other religions that's why i mentioned shias, they are of the same faith yet they're the target of many shootings. anyhu, is there such a thing as a "valid" reason to kill?
The topic is blasphemy law. The people who are killing shias want to divide the ummah. How are the two related?
Valid reason = if they were attacked by them, driven out of their homes etc.
Re: Blasphemy Law
I just want to start by saying that there are two issues being discussed here, the recent riot and its relation to the law, and the general validity, necessity, and effectiveness of the law.
You're missing the point. Letter of the law vs spirit of the law. It does not call for communal carnage but the law provides legal justification for hatred. Which is ironic, given that more humane laws are ignored (hence the repeated mention of changing behaviour as well). When the law was implemented in the 70's, was it done to protect Muslims who were under constant attack for their beliefs or was it implemented to target minorities? In theory the law is supposed to apply equally to all religions, in practice it's not. How often do you think someone from a religious minority successfully charges a Muslim with blasphemy? What if an Ahmedi tried to sue a Sunni for insulting their (the Ahmedi's) belief? Whatever you think about Ahmedis and their religion, it is what they believe and technically, someone questioning the validity of their prophet is committing blasphemy.
And yes, removing the law would indeed result in increased hate...for the wrong reason. Kind of like how banning slavery resulted in the Civil War in the US. In the long term, a progressive society needs to protect the beliefs of all its citizens. If an atheist debates a Muslim, I'm sure that, technically, blasphemy will be committed by the atheist. Should they be charged? Or should people who don't believe in Islam, or any religion, just GTFO of Pakistan? **Hence, the need to differentiate between blasphemy and hate speech. **Almost all religions consider the questioning of their doctrine to be blasphemy. It is absurdly easy to "sue" someone for this, and I use quotes because the reality is that the person will be intimidated and threatened with physical violence.
And lastly, the law is not solely responsible for the attack but it is a contributing factor. The problem starts with the judiciary system. When judges and politicians believe that blasphemy should be punished, they create, or back, laws that do just that. This trickles down to the mob which learns that such behaviour is tolerated by the authorities. The law creates a culture of intolerance given its history of application primarily against minorities.
So we're talking about two things here: 1) whether this law directly resulted in this particular riot (no, but it did indirectly) and 2) whether the blasphemy law at its core is necessary, and is able to provide protection for all beliefs (no it doesn't because there is no imminent surge of anti-religious speech ready to burst in Pakistan, and when two beliefs conflict with each other, and both can be considered blasphemy, the law will always favour the majority, i.e. Sunni Islam).
I'm absolutely shocked that you think a blasphemy law protects anybody. I would love to see cases, in Pakistan, where someone was harassed for their beliefs, and was able to successfully sue the defendant for blasphemy. Hate speech, incitement, and a myriad of other laws provide a much more balanced and subtle approach to judicial matters concerning protection of religion.
Reading your logic is humbling. So beautifully written. With politeness. And humanity. Literally brought tears.
"Someone questioning the validity of the prophet of Ahmedis" is committing blasphemy." That captures it.
Re: Blasphemy Law
By this analogy, Pakistan is also not bad place, where Hindus can sell liquor in rural Sindh, instead of it being haram in Islam
Who said Pakistan is bad? Pakistan is only Nation formed in the name of Islam, on the map of this big world. But I dont need Pak to sell liquor in rural or urban pakistan to be good. And what about Riba? It is haram too in Islam, is it consumed in rural sindh or anywhere else too? Plz educate us when U have raised this issue of haram and halal.
Peace.
Re: Blasphemy Law
Who said Pakistan is bad? Pakistan is only Nation formed in the name of Islam, on the map of this big world. But I dont need Pak to sell liquor in rural or urban pakistan to be good. And what about Riba? It is haram too in Islam, is it consumed in rural sindh or anywhere else too? Plz educate us when U have raised this issue of haram and halal.
Peace.
you tried to prove tolerance of Indian society by referring to sale of cow's meat. so I gave you like example of tolerance and yes Interest (Riba) is also part of tolerant Pakistan :D
Re: Blasphemy Law
The topic is blasphemy law. The people who are killing shias want to divide the ummah. How are the two related? Valid reason = if they were attacked by them, driven out of their homes etc.
Yeah you totally missed my point. I'm saying the reason they use to kill shias is accusations of blasphemy hence the relation.. so in this case both shias and christians are the minority. i'm pretty sure shias can relate more to christians than sunnis when it comes to being massacred in Pakistan for what they believe.
anyway, this is just going round in circles and it's boring. bye.
Re: Blasphemy Law
As it has been said before this type of mob mentality goes much deeper than Blasphemy laws. A change is needed in both the law and mentality of people. Articles B and C of 295, which carry life sentence and death penalty are created solely for protection of muslim sentiments. Not only that capital punishment is way out of line here, these laws dont provide any option for correcting the behavior of a person who hurts muslim sentiments. I am no law maker, but it seems reasonable that law should provide a way for offenders to mend their ways. A repeat offender can be given harsher punishments, but no logical argument can be given that a person committing this verbal crime should be given death penalty.
With the law in its current state, it is just a catalyst for uneducated masses to act as judge/jury/executioner.
Also, vast majority of muslims in pakistan just seem to be sitting on the edge of their seats. They get sentimental really quick ... some are even actively searching for reasons to get sentimental so they can avenge their personal desire to kill a non muslim.
Re: Blasphemy Law
The law should have reverse enforcement as well. If the accuser(s) found guilty of inciting a mob-rage based on false account, then it should be the accuser who stands to bear the burden of the ruling in this case. This will deter many from wanting to hurt someone based only on the fact that they're not muslim or hearsay.
As for the one who is truly found to be guilty of blasphemy should be given a chance to mend ways. Religious counseling can be made a mandatory part of conditional pardon, so it gives the non-muslim a chance to learn about Islam, and its etiquettes. I wouldn't be surprised if some who are sincere in nature, come out of this better human beings. Islam teaches all good things.
Allah's rahmah and mercy is limitless, and for all.
What's sad is that in most of these cases, the perpetrator is either Mentally Unstable (therefore not aware of his/her actions), or that one of the parties involved was committing a wrong in the first place. In case of the Lahore incident, the so-called Momin was drunk off his rear while discussing religious matters apparently. And then has the nerve to call for an outrageous mob to ransack houses of poor dwellers.
What a disgrace to Islam! Woe to such muslims, and woe to us for allowing them to act in such a way. :(
Re: Blasphemy Law
you tried to prove tolerance of Indian society by referring to sale of cow's meat. so I gave you like example of tolerance and yes Interest (Riba) is also part of tolerant Pakistan :D
So Riba is a part of tolerant Pakistan? U hurt me now. And as Usual I present U something,
**
Ghafil Aadab Se Sukkham E Zamin Kaise Hain
Shokh Gustakh Ye Pasti Ke Makin Kaise Hain
Is Qadar Shokh Ki ALLAH Se Bhi Barham Hain
Tha Jo Masjood E Malaik Ye Wohi Aadam Hai?
Aalim E Kaif Hain Dana E Ramuz E Kam Hain
Haan Magar Ajaz Ke Israr Se Namahram Hain.
Naaz Hai Taqat E Guftaar Pe Insaano Ko
Baat Karne Ka Saliqa Nahin Naadano Ko.
**
Re: Blasphemy Law
So Riba is a part of tolerant Pakistan? U hurt me now. And as Usual I present U something, ** Ghafil Aadab Se Sukkham E Zamin Kaise Hain Shokh Gustakh Ye Pasti Ke Makin Kaise Hain
Is Qadar Shokh Ki ALLAH Se Bhi Barham Hain Tha Jo Masjood E Malaik Ye Wohi Aadam Hai? Aalim E Kaif Hain Dana E Ramuz E Kam Hain Haan Magar Ajaz Ke Israr Se Namahram Hain.
Naaz Hai Taqat E Guftaar Pe Insaano Ko Baat Karne Ka Saliqa Nahin Naadano Ko.
**
nice lines, but these don't change realities unfortunately. Pakistan's economic system does support Riba and some people have also got its Islamic version in the name of Islamic Banking (for giving lori to their zameer)
Re: Blasphemy Law
Speaking as a Christian: this is one big difference between the structure of Christianity and Islam. In the Church, the Old Testament (Torah) laws against blasphemy are still in place, but they are the focus of Church discipline. That means that if you blaspheme, you should be excommunicated, not executed like in the Old Testament. If a nation was to run by Christian norms, there would be blasphemy laws, but the punishment would probably be administered by the Church (excommunication), or involve the loss of voting rights, something along those lines.
In Islam, I believe that there is no equivalent to excommunication, and the Mosque/State relationship is very different from the Church/State relationship.
Re: Blasphemy Law
indian muslims have that power due to their percentage......not due to secular governance...
just look at the rehabilitation of gujrat riot victims...
What about Christians in India. They have a very low percentage. As a christian myself, I can very proudly say that I am a true believer in India's secular policies. True there have been incidents, but we will have to understand from a holistic picture that Indian minorities have an equal and better chances of leading a good life.
Re: Blasphemy Law
@ teggy. Good post. One observation. You stated religious counseling can be given as part of a conditional pardon, so the offender(s) can learn about Islam. I assume this was just an oversight. And that religious couseling can be given about Christianity and Hinduism to the respective offenders. Because the mercy of Jesus and Narayana is also boundless. And both these religions and other religions also teach good things.
What happens if religious folks say offensives things about athiests? Should they be subjrcted to mandatory counseling on why athiests have their own reasons to have their lack of belief in organized religion.
Bottom line - live and let live. Be good, do good.
Respectfully.
Re: Blasphemy Law
What about Christians in India. They have a very low percentage. As a christian myself, I can very proudly say that I am a true believer in India's secular policies. True there have been incidents, but we will have to understand from a holistic picture that Indian minorities have an equal and better chances of leading a good life.
Please do not mislead or spread misconception.
There has not been systematic killing of Christians or their priests in Pakistan, like in India.
Moreover Christian missionaries have been attacked in India, forced conversion of Christians has been performed and these were people who had been converted to Christianity from Hinduism.
Read about as recent as 2007 and 2008 Orissa.
Ever heard of Bajrang Dal and Vishwa Hindu Parishad?
Anti Muslims and Anti-Christians forces are supported by those who want to try to *undo the "Muslims and British invasions" of India.
*
But whatever floats your boat. Paint the rosy picture of India. :)
Re: Blasphemy Law
Dear Mr. Diwana,
Hope things are well. Who better to comment on situation of Christains in India than a Christain.
If this response wasxoff topic, my apologies.
Respectfully.
Hari Om, Allah Hafiz.
Re: Blasphemy Law
I am living in India and you think you know better
Re: Blasphemy Law
Please do not mislead or spread misconception.
There has not been systematic killing of Christians or their priests in Pakistan, like in India.
Moreover Christian missionaries have been attacked in India, forced conversion of Christians has been performed and these were people who had been converted to Christianity from Hinduism.
Read about as recent as 2007 and 2008 Orissa.
Ever heard of Bajrang Dal and Vishwa Hindu Parishad?
Anti Muslims and Anti-Christians forces are supported by those who want to try to *undo the "Muslims and British invasions" of India. * But whatever floats your boat. Paint the rosy picture of India. :)
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Please do not mislead or spread misconception.
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May I reciprocate ur request plz?
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There has not been systematic killing of Christians or their priests in Pakistan, like in India.
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Because Pakistan is a non-violent nation, and peace-loving ppls like U are against killing anyone in the name of religion.
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Moreover Christian missionaries have been attacked in India, forced conversion of Christians has been performed and these were people who had been converted to Christianity from Hinduism.
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Yeah unlike in Pakistan, we have some religious-perverts who are against anyone abandoning his religion. They are bloody insane bigots who feel that there religion is in danger if someone converts to any other religion of his or her choice. Thanks ALLAH that Pakistan has been out of reach of these kind of religious perverts.
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Read about as recent as 2007 and 2008 Orissa.
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Sure we will, and we have been reading about what is happening around too. do u also read enough or read selectively? Just curious to know.
[QUOTE]
Anti Muslims and Anti-Christians forces are supported by those who want to try to *undo the "Muslims and British invasions" of India.
*
But whatever floats your boat. Paint the rosy picture of India. :)
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We cant do that, our rosy picture is often out-shined by peace-loving neighbors.