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Even if we take your argument to be true, that some ppl may be more associated with culture of their parents/grandparents country, how does it impact their rights as citizens of the country that they were born and raised in. Other arguments can be made, btu arguments such as oh but in teh country that your grandparents came from laws are crap, is in general a shortsighted and uninformed argument suited for the below-average joe on the street and no one else.
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That is exactly the point that I am trying to make. It is the average joe or as you said the below average joe who is instigating these attacks. It is never a state policy. I know I am crying myself hoarse, but some people refuse to hear.
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I mean how much outrage have we seen from non muslims about stupid policies in KSA? I mean until recently everyone knew..or had an ability to find out what kinda crap laws they have, but I did not see much outrage in american or british press about it either.
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That is because unlike muslims who take the slightest slight to be the gravest provocation, non-muslims do not express outrage until the situation is really bad. We have seen this situation happening in a number of countries.
well govt has an obligation to protect law abiding citizens from attacks of below-average joes. and they need to come out and say it in teh strongest possible terms, and the bleow-average joes instigating these attacks should be tried for hate crimes and it should be on their records for employment purposes kinda like felonies are on records of ppl in US. Then some of the bozos may think differently about harassing someone who is minding his/her own business and doing something that these yay-hooos may not agree with but it gives no one a right to attack the ppl.
..or until they are somehow impacted. I think it was thailand or somwhere where some young american punk was cought by cops while he was vandalizing cars. The punishment for that was lashes, it soon became a mass hysteria in US, all papers covering it.
The law had been there, other ppl had been subject to the same punishment, but as soon as one local punk gets in trouble, teh law becomes barbaric and what nots. Its a question of impact. Had there ben ppl from western countries in large numbers over there, they may have started some
But even when we speak of countries like KSA where I have lived and cant stand the local laws, americans and brits had te ability to do whatever in their compounds, anyne who has visited Aramco, which is a completely american private city would know that it seems like just like any other american city.
Now for ppl who are there are expats, they made a decision to deal with the local laws and all for the purpose of the monetary gains, and they know they will eventually go back to US or UK after some time. They really have very little reason to raise any hue and cry, its a temporary situation, and the places they live in are just like back home ..case in point Aramco.
The situation is very different for someone who is born in UK or US and is of saudi or Pakistani background. This is his homeland, this is where he lives, this is where he is a citizen and this is the place he has to voice his concern for his rights.
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..or until they are somehow impacted. I think it was thailand or somwhere where some young american punk was cought by cops while he was vandalizing cars. The punishment for that was lashes, it soon became a mass hysteria in US, all papers covering it.
The law had been there, other ppl had been subject to the same punishment, but as soon as one local punk gets in trouble, teh law becomes barbaric and what nots. Its a question of impact. Had there ben ppl from western countries in large numbers over there, they may have started some
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The law has always been there. How are foreigners supposed to know of some archaic law in all the countries. When someone of your own gets affected, that is when you realise there are still such countries which practise such laws. That is when you condemn the laws. Wasnt the punishment carried out. Do you really think if there were sufficient westerners in Thailand during that point, they would have started a riot.
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But even when we speak of countries like KSA where I have lived and cant stand the local laws, americans and brits had te ability to do whatever in their compounds, anyne who has visited Aramco, which is a completely american private city would know that it seems like just like any other american city.
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At least you agree that countries like KSA have laws which are sickening to say the least. True people make a conscious decisions to go there yearning for petro dollars. Why cant the same be said for immigrants to the west. At least in the west, people have the right to protest. Why cant they protest peacefully. Why start a riot. Even if the country is their homeland, that does not give them any right to indulge in vandalism..
I have lived in KSA and do not like the way the place is run. It was a decision by my folks to move there for some time, and we knew we were there temporarily, we had made a conscious decisions factoring in all the pros and cons, just like other expats do. so while we did not like the laws, we knew we would not be there forever and that it simply was not our problem.
when it comes to UK, being a born citizen, That is my country. That is what is home to me so if I see issues I would raise my voice for my rights.
comparing expats on tempprary assigments to children or grandchildren of immigrants is the error here.
hey and no one has a right to indulge in any vandalism period. children of ppl who immigrated one generation ago, 10 generations ago, 20 generations ago or those who are on a particular peice of land since the days of cavemen. I see no difference in ppl vanadalizing due to some issue on rights or because their football team lost.
I completely support people’s rights to speak up and demonstrate for their rights in their countries, I think that throwing ‘the country of your grandparents did this so you have no right to speak up’ as an excuse is pointless and reeks of jingoism of the type that national front and the skinheads used in the UK, and I think that violent protests that result in vandalism are just not right.
I have passed through Charles de Gaulle airport in Paris. Despite being a British citizen I had a lot of problems with the airport security staff....other passengers passed by while I was stopped at the checkpoint.....at one point I lost my temper when he just stared at my British passport for about 5 minutes after I had answered all their questions. I then asked him if there was a problem...and he reluctantly handed me back my passport. I vowed never to go back to that racist country again.
arshad it also depends on how you handle yourself. I am always polite, helpful, but firm. They need to do what they need to do, but I need to knwo what is going on and they need to do whatever they need to do in a quick and professional manner. I was in Frankfurt last year and the security officer looked at my pic and commented that it looked very different, and wanted to see my business card, and what I was doing in Frankfurt and what my company does.
the conversation went somthing like this
your passport picture looks very different
answer: well the picture is from 1996, i had very short hair in the pic, and this is pre wedding so I was 30lbs lighter, but its me.
what company are you with, can I see you business card.
answer: i work for xyz company, here is my business card. i am glad I did not use up all of these during my business trip here
what does your company do
answer: we are a global trade facilitation company. we do so and so
then I asked: do you need any additional information about my trip?
agent: no thank you
me; great, just want to make sure I dont mis the flight.
agent: oh you will be okay
me: danke
agent: smile and wink
that was it
the airline ppl as well as security ppl have to deal with som many ppl that its better if you are nice to them. I just go up to them and say , hi , I have one of those names and cant check in, could you please help me.
sometimes u run into real sore loser types, but majority of the time ppl are professional and deal with you the way you deal with them.
The scenario was I got off my plane was walking down the long corridors with other passengers. I was wearing a t-shirt with shorts. I had a small suitcase with me. I don't have a beard or even a mustache. I was walking down the checkpoint and as I passed ( there were 2 officers) they asked me to come back. I went back. They asked questions like where are you going...why are you going etc...they asked for my ticket which I showed them. They asked for the passport which I showed, and then one of the officers just stared at it...just looking at one page.....after 5 mintes of him staring at it I started to get annoyed....checks is one thing but being treated like second class citizens is another....I asked him in an irrated voice if there was any problem with the passport and he reluctantly gave it back to me.
why did u wait 5 minutes, if i were in your place I would just grin and say nice picture eh? no rules against humour. you dont want to just headbutt against these guys because they can make your life miserable atleast in the short term. he can say he was suspicious, give you a full cavity search, hold you back and escalate it to next layer of security, in the end you miss your connecitng flight and what nots. so yeah there are idiots everywhere, just try to deal with them appropriately.
Having lived in the middle east this is no new experience for me. rafiqs/sadeeqs/miskins always had a hard time in middle eastern security checkpoints and all. luckily they dinn harass us too much as with UK passports they dont want to get overboard. but they tried, much of it was to ascertain the authenticity of the passport, which we told em that they are more than welcome to call the embassy and passport office to confirm.
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when it comes to UK, being a born citizen, That is my country. That is what is home to me so if I see issues I would raise my voice for my rights.
comparing expats on tempprary assigments to children or grandchildren of immigrants is the error here.
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So you are meaning to say that expats on temporary assignments have no right to protest against the bad treatment meeted out to them. Nice logic. While you cry yourself hoarse about your rights, think about the vast majotrity of expats (even citizens) who live in subhuman conditions in the so called Islamic countries..
I really appreciate the fact that you are against vandalism of all sorts. But then when the net instance of vandalism occurs, do not give reasons like root cause and the like !!!
**So you are meaning to say that expats on temporary assignments have no right to protest against the bad treatment meeted out to them. **
Read what you want to read. I am drawing a difference between someone who is in a place that he does not consider his own and thus is not as concerned. I gave you my own example as an expat in KSA where we disliked many laws but knew it was a temporary thing and would rather not voice our discontent and get in trouble. we made a choice to not speak up, but we knew it was a temporary thing, and we will not have to live with it forever.
** Nice logic. **
logic is always nice regardless of your efforts to twist it to suit your own purpose
While you cry yourself hoarse about your rights, think about the vast majotrity of expats (even citizens) who live in subhuman conditions in the so called Islamic countries..
I dont cry myself hoarse. I choose to present my point is a logical civilized manner btw this statement of cry yourself hoarse is getting old
People need to stand up for their rights. The premise that british muslim standing up for his rights can nto do so because in some completely unrelated muslim majority country ppl are being mistreated, is as lame an argument as I have ever heard. Tell them to get the hell up and do what they need to do for their rights. I am not stopping anyone from standing up for their rights anywhere in the world. But someone from hongkong standing up for his rights in burkina faso is not my primary responsibility nor does the fact that people from monaco are not getting the right treatment in burundi an excuse to curb my ability to stand up for my rights in my country
I really appreciate the fact that you are against vandalism of all sorts. But then when the net instance of vandalism occurs, do not give reasons like root cause and the like !!!
Thank you, your appreciation really means so much to me ;:flower:
really? go back and dig up when I have used root cause to justify any vandalism anywhere, whether by mobs or by states..
I have been to France 5 times and I have never had a problem
I am a Pakistani Canadian.
The difference is that Pakistanis in Canada are well integrated and selected before they immigrate to this country and assimilate well.
British Pakistanis are children of poor laborers and as such can be lured into militancy, believing conspiracy theories and other such non-sense and the end result is the fact that british pakistanis are seen as potential terrorists.
That is a problem plaguging europe.
The best solution is to deport all families of people caught in terrorist activities.
The only way to subdue this problem is for the alleged terrorists to know that if they commit these acts their family will also suffer.
Look at Jordan. If a Jordanian commits a terrorist act, their families are killed.
Well first of all, Situation in Canada is not much different, its in earlier stages but the population is headed in the exact same direction, the difference is that the earlier immigrants were the more professional types, but then due to lax immigration and assylum policies all types of kacchra has showed up there in the last 2 decades. a drive down the desi slums will show you just that.
secondly, if canadian pakistanis were considered oh so safe then Uncle sam’s agent would not be routinely making them nanga at US canada border checkpoints on a daily basis
Having lived in the middle east this is no new experience for me. rafiqs/sadeeqs/miskins always had a hard time in middle eastern security checkpoints and all. luckily they dinn harass us too much as with UK passports they dont want to get overboard. but they tried, much of it was to ascertain the authenticity of the passport, which we told em that they are more than welcome to call the embassy and passport office to confirm.
One of the two did not speak any english and the others english was very basic...so therefore I did not engage them in conversation besides then did not look in mood for humour. Engaging someone in conversation does not guarantee that you would get a better treatment. I once tried to have a joke with the customs at Heathrow airport and they took me inside a little cubicle for a detailed search....I am sure that if I had not attracted their attention I could have just passed.
We are all different and have different ways of reacting...and a good job it is too that we are all different. You are right that they could have made my life awkward and although I did not want a confrontation I was prepared for one. I saw the situation not in a personal context but rather about justice and rights. The french are well known for being generally racists. The state has certain rights and the individuals have certain rights. As individuals we need to stand up and fight for our rights even if it means being inconvenienced from time to time. British history is littered with many examples of struggles and sacrifices by people in order to enjoy the rights that we and much of the western world enjoys today. It is these struggles that make us great, and a more civilised country. A more civilised society is one in which people are prepared to put the interests of the others before their own.
btw this statement of cry yourself hoarse is getting old