Avoiding the temptations of Western society

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by filhaal: *
**the essential word in arabic is "IDRIBUHUN", which is translated here as 'beat'. the word has many different meanings: strike, beat but also, depart, part or seperate.......
....considering the whole context of the ayat "IDRIBUHUN" should be translated as 'to seperate'......
*
[/quote]

The verb "daraba" can mean: depart, part or separate, as you have suggested. However, this is usually the case when it is used in conjunction with the preposition 'an. When used in this way, the phrase can mean: to turn away from, ignore, avoid, forsake, shun etc. For example, look at verse 43:5 of the Qur'an:

"Shall We utterly ignore you (nadribu 'an kum) because ye are a wanton folk?" (Pickthall)

And Allah knows best.

Iqbal

I do not know arabic. I am not a scholar of religion. So I cannot speak about either the credibility of the translations or the "meaning". I defer that to the scholars, and then decide with my conscience whether that makes any sense or not.
The concern I have is that we should not try to change the meaning just to be 'politically correct' for the present. I assume that the scholars who translated and arrived at the word beat are knowledgeable people because these translations are generally "accepted". If we want to walk away from "beat" to "separate" then there ought to be a fairly good consesus amongst the scholars, otherwise we end up with thousands of individual translations by not so scholarly individuals.

Now you may not like the word "beat" that is another matter, and you can discuss that with people who know the Quran a lot lot better than I do.
As far as my understanding goes:
Although men and women are equal, man has been asked to be the guide (and hence take lead in certain matters), and light beating is permitted by the Quran. I could not possibly begin to answer why Allha does not allow the wife to beat the husband. Perhaps someone who is knowledgable can tell us.

For people who look to a reason. There might not be one. Allah has not given us a reason for everything we do. An example, why do we pray 3 rakat Maghrib and then 4 for Isha, Allah has given us no reason but we do it. Why because Allah said so and he is our creator and knows best.
Allah has given reason for certain things and for some he hasn't. As Muslims we believe he knows best and we should do whatever we are told as the reason we should do actions is solely for the pleasure of Allah rather than the fact that we see a reason in it. So taking one rule and rejecting another based on personal preference is wrong. Allah defines what is right and what is wrong and that is what we should obey.

Stu is gone since the other interpretation of the word offered :)
Its always easy to flame, difficult to engage in intellectual discussions :D

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
Stu is gone since the other interpretation of the word offered :)
Its always easy to flame, difficult to engage in intellectual discussions :D
[/QUOTE]

What was so intellectual about the dissertations offered. You guys can't agree among yourself what the term beat means. It should not even be there, forget about being open to translation.

To tie the title of this thread to the ongoing posts, it is reccomended that a Muslim avoid the temptation of An- Nisa: 34, as it is illegal for a man to beat his wife in Western society.

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Seminole: *
To tie the title of this thread to the ongoing posts, it is reccomended that a Muslim avoid the temptation of *An- Nisa: 34
, as it is illegal for a man to beat his wife in Western society.
[/QUOTE]

Seminole: How dare you suggest the supremacy of man made laws over traditional islamic ones?

Western laws are based on secular, democratic and equal rights ideals. When in Rome...

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Chaltahai: *

What was so intellectual about the dissertations offered. You guys can't agree among yourself what the term beat means. It should not even be there, forget about being open to translation.
[/QUOTE]

chanda the word could be translated in different ways... if it is translated as beat then maybe it should instead be translated as seperate....

Thanks for your clarification your holy-ship. By your rationale, it's ok for some to beat (albeit lightly) your wife and for some to move away from her. Wah!

No... by my rationale if the interpretation is wrong one can start using the correct interpretation. The point is of responsible interpretation.

Why not shun it? In another two hundred years the meaning could become "tie her down with red bandannas" or something. By applying a law that can be amended over a period of time, such comfusions can be done away with. I think manmade laws might work.

there are a finte number of translations. Do people have incorrect interpretations of laws? surely..anything from satti in hindusim to pork in chirtianity. If you dont want to follow something..dont do it why change the words, say there are these words and we dont follow them , easy does it :)

interpretation is a different concept than changing something.

You are confusing religious mandates with religious practices for one. Although in Islam they might be one and the same thing, in other religions they are separate issues. Pork in christianity? You mean judaism.

It all goes back to the word of god. If both interpretations are the supposed word of god, is god so confused as he can't succintly get to the point.

I find it quite interesting that no one points to the apparent inequality in responsibility on the shoulder of a man in the same Quran. I guess none has bothered to read the whole thing anyway. In my opinion, men are pounded left & right with responsibilities and not only that they are reminded over & over again that they will be questioned on the day of judgment if they didn’t live up to those duties assigned to them. But I guess who has time to read the whole Quran when we can find one verse to be unhappy about and what so fun if men are being discriminated. :)

Just so you know, Quran holds the man of the house responsible for his ahal (wife, children etc.) to protect them, to educate them spiritually & otherwise, and to cater to their everyday needs. And if he fails to do so, he will be held responsible (no, not the wife, mind you, only the man). Ah, what injustice you may say ... but there is more.

Islam also makes the man of the house responsible for providing to the economical needs of the family! Gives the right to the woman to work but she has no obligation what so ever to contribute or share a single penny. On top of that she has the right to divorce just on the basis that the man cannot support her financially. Man has no such rights.

Surah Nisa, which is quoted above, talks about the family and laws governing a family explicitly. What are the rights of a wife on her husband & what are her obligations ... and also what are the rights of the husband & his obligations. If you read from the beginning to end, it will come all so clear that these laws have a balance.

Islam gave women the right to qaza (court) against her husband on all issues. If she thinks her rights have been violated she has every right to drag him to court.

Sadly, so-called Muslim scholars with time have given man the right to beat, quoting the above mentioned verse but have failed to point out the essential that if he is not the fulfilling husband, also prescribed in the very same teachings, he loses his part of ‘rights’ as well!

Another interesting thing to point out is that no where in the history of early Islam can one point out a Hadiths/Sunnah that the Holy Prophet (saw) or his early followers used this verse as a sanction against their wives. I wonder if they had the perfect of the wives or what ..

p.s: And I do not agree with the initial article

just a few facts n figures:

In this article, Dr Nazreen Nawaz, examines Western attitudes towards the honour of women, their dangerous effect in the Muslim World and the manner in which Islam secures the honour of women.

Every society embraces the particular values that it honours, respects, and protects. However, the subject that is given such honour varies according to the viewpoint that the society and the state are established upon. This attitude towards honour will then consequently spread to shape the opinions of the individuals within the society at large.

Within a capitalist state, empty rhetoric is often expressed regarding the honour, care and protection given to the wife, mother, daughter and career woman. However, behind such words, the reality is very clear: the only object worthy of honour, care and protection is money and the values of freedom and democracy. Hence, we observe a situation in Western societies where the use of pornography and images of naked women to sell products has become an acceptable means due to its ability to create massive revenue. Under the guise of personal freedom, that stipulates that an individual should live his life according to his own desires and under his own accountability, we see an epidemic of crimes against women ranging from sexual harassment and rape to domestic violence. Women are encouraged by the male-run fashion industries to wear as little clothing as possible to reveal their beauty to all. We also see that slanderous allegations against the reputation of women have become commonplace in the media and within society at large. It is clear that the view of the woman being an economic commodity for the man, or tool to simply fulfil the desires of man, affects all levels of the society from the politicians, police force, army and doctors, to the simple man on the street. Such is the result of the capitalist ideology.

The antithesis to this situation is the deen of Islam where the true preservation of the honour of the woman is viewed as a life and death matter to be given the utmost care and attention. This is exhibited by the society and state and at all stages within the Muslim woman’s life as a daughter, wife, and mother. The Prophet (saw) said, “Whoever dies protecting his honour dies shaheed.” The woman is one of those honours placed within the palm of the man as an amana (trust) from his Creator Allah (swt) to be protected at all times. This attitude within an Islamic State would also affect every level of the society from the ruler, army, Qadis and to the man on the street.

An international view that has been propagated as to how the woman can achieve respect and honour within the society is to adopt the Western lifestyle, dress and to become a successful career woman. Alongside this, women have been instructed to call for the values of liberation, freedom, and equality and to aid the transformation of the systems of ruling within their countries to become more in tune with the Democratic system of government that secures all freedoms of the capitalist West. In contrast, the image portrayed of Islam is that it dishonours the woman by forcing her to cover in the khimar and jilbab, by encouraging early marriage, by commanding obedience to the father as a daughter and to the husband as a wife and by allowing polygamy for the man. The Western media, as proofs for their claim, repeatedly cite the existent pseudo-Islamic states such as Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia.

The Western world calls for the Muslim woman to lock the Qur’an in the cupboard and disregard the rules and roles that emanate from Islam. It calls for her to uncover her beauty so she may be appreciated by men, to socialise freely with male friends and colleagues so as to elevate her status, to pursue her career at the expense of marriage and her marital duties and to call for further freedoms within her society.

Unfortunately, many of our dear sisters have taken this path, feeling that this will bring them the honour and protection that they desire as Muslim women within society. It is an attack that has been consistent over the past 150 years or so and this concept has corrupted the mentality of the rulers, scholars and intellectuals of this Ummah. Qasim Amin, an Egyptian judge in the 19th century, wrote a book entitled, Al Mara’at al Jadida (Modern Woman). In this, he rebukes Egyptians for glorifying their Islamic past and taking pride in their Islamic culture. He advises the Muslim woman to take the Western woman as her role model in order to elevate her status and the status of Egyptian society. He writes, “This is our real ailment which needs to be eradicated first of all. The first way to get rid of it is that we should make our younger generations acquainted more and more with Western civilisation and its conditions and circumstances ... We will realise the value and importance of Western civilisation and see for ourselves that no reform is possible unless it is based on modern Western knowledge ... For this very reason we project the people of the West as a symbol of perfection, insist on their veneration as an ideal, and appeal to our countrymen to study the position and status of the Western woman.”

With this in mind, it is important for us to examine the true reality of the status of the honour of the woman within the western capitalist states and the consequences of the call for ideas such as freedom and liberation. Has the achievement of a successful career, a free lifestyle, and a greater voice in the parliamentary process and democracy brought her the honour, status, protection and security that she desired?

The Capitalist Western States and the Dishonouring of the Woman

The greatest idol within the capitalist state is money. Consequently, the main question that plagues the minds of the individuals within the society is how to increase their material wealth. As a result, the woman is not viewed as a human being that has certain needs that require fulfilment, including the protection of her honour. Rather, she is viewed as an economic commodity to be exploited by whoever wishes to make money. In existence is a capitalist dominated world where the pornography industry generates $7 billion every year, a figure greater than the whole of the so-called “legitimate film and music industries” combined. In the US, pornography films gross $1 million every day, and in Britain 20 million copies of pornography magazines are sold every year, producing revenue of £500 million. It is therefore clear that men are encouraged to simply view women as objects to gratify their sexual desires. Is this the honour that the Muslim woman seeks from the adoption of the idea of freedom?

Could it be possible that the successful working woman is not seen in this light due to her material achievements and service within the society, such as the doctor, manager, engineer, secretary or teacher, and rather her male colleagues view her with respect and honour? It is naive to think that in a society that is drenched with the culture of personal freedom and opinion, that the work place or office would be a haven from such degrading mentality and behaviour. If we examine the issue of sexual harassment in the Western states, within those institutions that should theoretically exemplify morality, such as the governments that look after the affairs of the people and the police force and army, we see the true picture of the male view towards their female colleagues. In a survey conducted in the UK among the British Civil Service, 70% of the respondents claimed to have been sexually harassed at work. A survey in nine US states, examining a period of 5 years, stated that 60% of the female lawyers interviewed had been sexually harassed, a third by colleagues, 40% by clients, and 6% by judges. In the 1998 study by the Yale University School of Medical Researchers it was discovered that amongst the female soldiers of the American army serving in the Vietnam or Gulf war, 63% had experienced physical and sexual harassment during their military service, and 43% reported rape or attempted rape. If these are the professionals who claim to uphold the law, then what can be expected from the rest of the society? A successful career within the capitalist state has not given the woman the status that she dreamt of. Is this the honour that the Muslim woman seeks when she strives day and night to build her career and neglect her family, children, and other Islamic obligations?

Some may claim that Western women achieve harmony and honour in the home, if not in the public arena? This is a delusional idea. The BBC reported that nearly 25% of women in the UK face domestic violence at some stage in their life. Police are called to an incident of domestic violence every 60 seconds and receive 1,300 calls each day related to this. Domestic violence kills two women each week in the UK. Professor Betsy Stanke from University of London was quoted as saying, “What this shows is that men in Britain, like men around the world, also beat their wives.” Is this the honour that the Muslim woman seeks by adopting the Western lifestyle and culture and by forsaking the Islamic culture?

Originally posted by Chaltahai: *
**Pork in christianity? You mean judaism. *

nope..in christianity (levicitus 11;8)

*It all goes back to the word of god. If both interpretations are the supposed word of god, is god so confused as he can't succintly get to the point. *

No but mankind has its own weaknesses, agendas, ideas that end up in how they interpret the verses.

the article comtined

If we study the ultimate form of dishonour that a woman can experience, that of rape, we find shocking statistics illustrating the reality. In the US, a rape occurs every minute, and in the UK, one-third of women have been sexually abused by the age of 18. Also, there was a 500% increase in the reporting of rape between 1996 and 1997. In addition, the sentence for rape can be as low as 180 hours community service. The recent case of a middle-aged woman raped by a group of youths along a canal in West London clearly illustrates how low the honour of the woman has become within this society. She was raped by a 15 year old and 18 year old, while others watched and encouraged the episode, the youngest being 11 years old. Perhaps more shocking than this was that a girl actually held down the victim while her friends raped the woman. It appears that even women no longer value their honour. It is not surprising that the majority of women in the West do not feel safe on the streets at any time of the day. Is this really the honour that the Muslim woman seeks by calling for the Western capitalist system, democracy and freedom to be implemented over her?

The reason for this horrific reality is clear: the implementation of man-made law. Allah (swt) says:

“If the truth had been in accord with their desires, truly the heavens and the earth and all beings therein would have been in confusion and corruption! Nay we have sent them their admonition but they turn away from their admonition” [TMQ Al-Mu’minun: 71].

Allah (swt) also says:

“Whoever follows My Guidance shall neither go astray, nor fall into distress and misery. But whoever turns away from My Reminder (That is, neither believes in the Qur’an nor acts on its orders) verily, for him is a life of hardship, and We shall raise him up blind on the Day of Resurrection” [TMQ Ta-Ha: 123-124].

The Current Reality of the Muslim World and the Dishonour of the Woman

However disgusting the statistics may prove, nothing can compare to the distress from understanding the reality of the Muslim world today. Our societies, if not mirroring the status of the Western picture, are rapidly approaching this. This is as a result of the domination of capitalism over our lands, the infiltration of the Western culture based upon freedom and democracy, and the absence of a true Islamic State, the Khilafah, to protect the honour of the Muslim woman.

In February this year, Reuters reported the case of three former Bosnian Serb commanders convicted by the United Nations War Crimes Court for rape and sexual enslavement of dozens of Muslim women in the area of Foca, in Southeast Bosnia, during the Bosnian war. Prosecutors said the three men took women and girls as young as 12 to a variety of “rape houses” for brutal beatings and assaults. Many women were so forcibly abused that they suffered permanent harm. One woman, identified as “witness 75”, was raped for three hours by 15 men. One 15-year-old girl described a knife wielding man who threatened to gouge her with a crucifix and forced her to drink alcohol. He made her assume a Serb name as he raped her. She described the horrific experience of being raped, “I remember he was very forceful. He wanted to hurt me. But he could never hurt me as much as my soul was hurting me.”

Such realities are not few in number. Our sisters continue to suffer such humiliation worldwide from Kosovo, to Palestine to Kashmir, due to the absence of the protection of the Islamic State.

The infiltration of freedom into our lands has brought with it rape, domestic violence, sexual perversion and prostitution engaged in by Muslim men. In Pakistan, a woman is raped every two hours. In March 1998, a case came to the attention of the Pakistani courts of a 14 year old school girl named Naumana Tabbasum who was gang raped in a governmental building in Peshawar by the section officer of the local government department and three of his colleagues. They had threatened to kill her parents if she revealed the truth. Is it not the government that should be the protector of the people and not its enemy? There are numerous reports also of police in Pakistan stripping women naked and parading them in public.

In Bangladesh, prostitution has been legalised, and it is said that the rate of abortion there of girls between 15 and 49 is 28/1000, almost the level of that within the US. Domestic violence is also reaching epidemic levels in the Muslim world. In Pakistan, there is a shocking statistic of domestic violence. It is said that 70% of women are subjected to violence in their homes. A new style is used in the Asian sub-continent called, “stove burning” where the woman is set on fire for reasons ranging from not bearing sons to not having added enough salt to the food. Lahore newspapers report over four cases of women injured per week from such treatment, and two hospitals in Pakistan stated that 500 women had burned to death as a result of such incidents in the past three years.

The reason for such problems is clear: the idea of personal freedom where the man can fulfil his desires and behave in any way he pleases. The consequences on others within society, and the honour of women, are dire. It is evident then that a call for the Western way of life, the adoption of the Western culture and the capitalist system can bring nothing but humiliation, dishonour, and insecurity for the Muslim woman.

We can agree to disagree. In my view god should get her act together and figure out what the hell he is trying to say. I don't think god is such a sadist that will allow misinterpretation of her word that can lead to beating of females.

or of burning them..