Army Op in FATA

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *

okay so lets get this straight, if we go by your statments here then our mullahs are also army lackeys.

additionally, what about the pre-partition mullahs, there was no pak army then, who do we blame them on :)
[/QUOTE]

Let's also not forget that the whisky drinking and avowed secularlist Zulfikar Ali Bhutto was the first one to pander to the mullahs, and allow them to influence governement policies. Let us also not forget what he did to the Pashtun parties (NAP) and the NWFP at the time. He was a politician, not a soldier.

[QUOTE]
One MMA politician called what's happening a mini civil war..
[/QUOTE]

Zakk what would be the best approach to the problem? US has probably given Musharraf stark choicces once again either appear to be taking action or we'll send in some B-52s and level the place and the man is doing yet another balancing act. I hope in an effort to appease the situation the government repeals of at least modifies the FCR significantly as well as taking other steps. I sure hope Mushi knows what he is doing.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Malik73: *
Let's also not forget that the whisky drinking and avowed secularlist Zulfikar Ali Bhutto was the first one to pander to the mullahs, and allow them to influence governement policies. Let us also not forget what he did to the Pashtun parties (NAP) and the NWFP at the time. He was a politician, not a soldier.
[/QUOTE]

good points bro. ppl like to drag military's name everywhere. anyone remember who was a civilian martial law admin? :)

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
shawaiz

whoa lemme get it straight, did the govt not ask the tribesman to hand over these ppl like acchay bacchay?

[/QUOTE]

More like the USA,CIA,Bush and co wanted them to be handover and mushraff obeying its master like a dogs does!

well your heroes did not have problem obeying their masters when they got weapons and training from US & Pakistan. I mean no one had a problem when Pakistan wasa obeyign US and supporting the afghan resistance against soveits. Us was not bad then, Pak was not bad then. now everyone is whimpering..

I am glad Musharraf is doing what he is doing, shows he has brains unlike the leaders of afghanistan who decided to fight for a lame cause.

Pakistan should pick its battles carefully, the current situation does not warrant opposing what US wants, because that is teh right thing. The extremist should be contained, caught and killed, simple as that.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by clubber lang: *
obeying its master like a dogs does!
[/QUOTE]

P.S. its either "dogs do" or "dog does" but when you add an "a" it has to be "dog does"

Not only do you have a logical and factual error, but also a language error too.

no charge this time

Pakistani forces have surrounded what may be a “high-value” al Qaeda target in Pakistan near the border with Afghanistan, President Pervez Musharraf told CNN.](CNN.com - Pakistani sources: Al-Zawahiri surrounded - Mar 18, 2004)

“We feel that there may be a high-value target,” Musharraf told CNN. “I can’t say who.”

Two Pakistani government sources told CNN that intelligence indicates the surrounded figure is Ayman al-Zawahiri, al Qaeda’s number two leader.

More than 200 al Qaeda fighters are trying to prevent his capture, the sources said.

Musharraf said the ferociousness of the surrounded fighters indicates that they are protecting someone particularly significant.

The military asked locals to leave and is flying helicopters overhead, “pounding” the area with artillery, he said.

U.S. and Pakistani officials have said they believe bin Laden probably is in Pakistan near the border with Afghanistan.

Word of the standoff comes after Pakistan announced it has launched a fresh offensive against suspected militants near the Afghan border.

Hundreds of Pakistani troops backed by heavy artillery and helicopter gunships raided homes in the nation’s tribal region of South Waziristan, two days after a fierce assault in the same area left dozens dead.

On Tuesday, at least 39 people were killed in a raid on suspected Taliban and al Qaeda militants in a fortress-like compound in Kaloosha, close to the border.

Fifteen soldiers died, while Pakistani forces killed 24 suspects, most of them foreign fighters, military officials said. (Full story)

Intelligence officers are also questioning 18 people captured during the raids.

In retaliation, angry tribesmen torched more than a dozen military vehicles – some loaded with ammunition – on Tuesday and Wednesday.

‘Finish the terrorists’
Pakistani Information Minister Shiekh Rashid Ahmed told CNN on Thursday that “for the first time in the history, Pakistani forces have entered there to finish the terrorists.”

“We are committed against terrorism and we have to pay the price,” he said.

Pakistan forces have launched a number of sweeps for “suspected foreign terrorists” along the border after Afghan and U.S. officials complained they were escaping to sanctuaries in Pakistan.

About 70,000 Pakistan troops are in the tribal regions and the recent offensive coincides with a major U.S. military operation on the other side of the border in Afghanistan to capture terror suspects.

Though a spring offensive across southern and eastern Afghanistan, called Operation “Mountain Storm”, is yet to be officially launched, U.S. military operations there have been stepped up.

Powell: Pakistan a key ally

Earlier Thursday, U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell met with Musharraf in Islamabad and said Washington will designate Pakistan a major, non-NATO ally, making it easier for the country to buy advanced U.S. weapons.

His announcement came despite U.S. concern about the recent nuclear proliferation row involving the founder of Pakistan’s nuclear program.

Earlier this year, Abdul Qadeer Khan admitted he gave nuclear weapons technology to other countries.

But Musharraf has been a steadfast ally of the United Sates in the war against terror, despite considerable pressure from Pakistan’s mostly Muslim population.

Powell told CNN the United States is hoping for further assistance. On Thursday Pakistani forces launched a fresh offensive against suspected al Qaeda and Taliban fighters near the Afghan border.

==================================

Lets see what comes out of the cap!

:jhanda:

Post removed
Reason: Tarnishing the image of Pakistani People.
Authors Note: Hope all the people who read the post suffer from amnesia.

:)

yeah whatever Pakora, you may prefer "peace with terrorists" but the US doesn't. The US may not always make the wisest decisions but musharaff clearly knows that appeasing these murderers is never the right thing to do.

anyway, if they (hopefully) catch al-zawahiri alive I wonder if musharaff will allow him to be handed over to us? I hear cuba is nice in the springtime

**'Finish the terrorists'
Pakistani Information Minister Shiekh Rashid Ahmed told CNN on Thursday that "for the first time in the history, Pakistani forces have entered there to finish the terrorists."

"We are committed against terrorism and we have to pay the price," he said.

Pakistan forces have launched a number of sweeps for "suspected foreign terrorists" along the border after Afghan and U.S. officials complained they were escaping to sanctuaries in Pakistan.**

That's great and I applaud them. from what i know though something like 14 Pak troops have died during this operation and at least 18 are missing. Similar to when Pak soldiers were killed during UN missions in Somalia, details seem to be sketchy as to the identities of these guys who lay themselves on the line. Is it too much to ask that we get some names so we can at least pay tribute properly? Fighting a war in that terrain is no picnic. There should be some acknowledgment of that. Sheikh Rashid Ahmed when he's finished his piece for CNN might want to elaborate on PTV for the benefit of the relatives of those who laid down their lives.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Madhanee: *
Pakora, did you write that letter yourself?

[/QUOTE]

well I am planning to visit US this summer so a better answer would be " No I dint".

Stu:I never said to make "Peace with the terrorists" But the definition of terrorism that the Pakistanis hold true is quite different to that you are accustomed to. I hope you understand where I am coming from.

I hope u get ur man ASAP and the battle ends.

Pakora,

Americans wish the best for you and your country.

Oooops, amnesia.

:jhanda:

Pakistanis May Be Near al-Qaida’s No. 2

Pakistanis May Be Near al-Qaida’s No. 2

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan - Pakistani forces believe they have cornered and perhaps wounded Osama bin Laden (news - web sites)'s deputy, Ayman al-Zawahri, in a battle near the Afghan border, three senior Pakistani officials said Thursday, the first major break in the world’s most intense manhunt in more than a year.

Hundreds of troops and paramilitary rangers pounded several fortress-like mud-brick compounds with artillery and fired on them from helicopter gunships, as entrenched suspects fought back hard in the mountainous region. An intelligence official said “dozens” were killed Thursday.

The officials told The Associated Press that intelligence indicated the forces had surrounded the Egyptian-born al-Zawahri in an operation that began Tuesday in South Waziristan, a semi-autonomous tribal belt long believed the most likely hiding place for the top two al-Qaida leaders.

There was no indication bin Laden was with al-Zawahri. However, the two have traveled together in the past, and bin Laden and al-Zawahri appeared jointly in video tapes released shortly after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the United States.

The United States has offered a $25 million reward for information leading to al-Zawahri’s capture. On Thursday, the U.S. House of Representatives doubled the reward for bin Laden’s capture to $50 million.

“We have been receiving intelligence and information from our agents who are working in the tribal areas that al-Zawahri could be among the people hiding there,” a Pakistani military official said. “All of our efforts are to capture him.”

An intelligence official and a senior politician in President Gen. Pervez Musharraf’s government both confirmed the account. All spoke on condition of anonymity.

The intelligence official said information was also coming from some of the 18 suspects arrested during Thursday’s operation. Some said during interrogation that al-Zawahri was wounded in the raid, the official said. Officials said helicopter gunships and artillery would continue attacking at dawn Friday.

Musharraf told CNN that he’d spoken with the commander of Pakistani troops in the region. He said the commander reported “fierce resistance” from a group of fighters entrenched in fortress-like buildings, and that there were indications a senior figure was surrounded.

“He’s reasonably sure there’s a high-value target there,” Musharraf said. “They are not coming out in spite of the fact that we pounded them with artillery.”

The news came the same day as Secretary of State Colin Powell (news - web sites) announced in the capital, Islamabad, that Washington was bestowing the status of “major non-NATO (news - web sites) ally” on Pakistan, and praised the country for its help in the war on terror.

National security adviser Condoleezza Rice (news - web sites) told CNN she could not confirm the reports.

But, she said, if al-Zawahri were captured, “it would be of course a major step forward in the war on terrorism, because he’s obviously an extremely important figure. But I think we have to be careful not to assume that getting one al-Qaida leader is going to break up the organization.”

The 52-year-old former Egyptian surgeon is believed to be the brains behind the terror network, with bin Laden serving more as spiritual leader and financial backer.

Often seen by bin Laden’s side in videos released to Arab television networks, the doctor was also thought to serve as al-Qaida leader’s personal physician.

Al-Zawahri’s Egyptian Islamic Jihad was believed behind the assassination of President Anwar Sadat during a Cairo military parade in 1981. He merged the organization with al-Qaida in 1998.

Al-Zawahri has continued to spread his message since the Sept. 11 attacks in audiotapes, the latest broadcast on Feb. 24, in which he taunted President Bush (news - web sites) and threatened more attacks on the United States. Another tape criticized France’s decision to ban Islamic headscarves in schools.

Under pressure from Washington, Pakistan has arrested more than 500 al-Qaida suspects and has turned most over to the United States. The last major capture was that of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the former al-Qaida No. 3, who was nabbed on March 1, 2003, in a house near the capital and quickly delivered to U.S. custody. He is being held at an undisclosed location.

The Pakistani military has been pursuing 100 tribal leaders whom authorities want to roll into their efforts to hunt al-Qaida in the Waziristan frontier. So far, about two-thirds have said they would provide information and turn over any Islamic militants in their territories, American defense officials said.

The others face destruction of their homes by the Pakistani military, officials said.

There have been several anti-terror sweeps in the tribal regions in recent months, but none so bloody as the operation that began Tuesday. Pakistani troops have moved 70,000 troops into the border region, and Musharraf on Monday promised to rid the tribal areas of foreign terrorists.

At least 41 people — 15 soldiers and 26 suspected militants — were killed Tuesday in fighting in the area. The military said Thursday that most of those killed were foreigners, but it did not give their nationalities and acknowledged that only two bodies had been recovered. The two dead included a Chechen and someone of Middle Eastern origin, a military official said on condition of anonymity.

U.S. officials say they are watching to see if the Pakistani actions send militants back into Afghanistan (news - web sites), where U.S. troops operate freely. The U.S. military on Sunday announced the start of a new operation to track down senior al-Qaida and Taliban fugitives.

Afghan officials told AP they were closely monitoring the Pakistani operation.

“We are hopeful operations being carried out in border regions will yield some desirable results,” said Afghan Foreign Ministry spokesman Omar Samad. “If a well known figure is part of these captures … the world will be a safer place.”

Thursday’s raid concentrated on three South Waziristan towns — Azam Warsak, Shin Warsak and Kaloosha. Early morning calls from mosques warned residents to leave the area, apparently to give the troops more room to operate.

Powell, who left the country hours before the news broke, also said he believed there was evidence that bin Laden is hiding in the rugged border area.

“No one has seen him, so how can one be sure?” Powell told Geo TV. "But he has certainly given evidence that he is alive and active. But we can’t be sure.

“And if he is alive and active, and the evidence suggests that he is, and if he is in the area of the Pakistan-Afghan border, that’s a very difficult area to find someone who doesn’t want to be found.”

Comment;

The line which mentions that Pakistan under pressure from the Americans is arresting and imprisoning muslims makes you think who is really controlling and running Pakistan? is it the Americans? Or is it Musharaff the self elected dictator of Pakistan? And what will happen if Musharaff told America to get lost and that he would run pakistan according to what is in the best interests of the muslims of this great nation? Would America accept this as an expression of a soveriegn state? Or would they say " No, it is we who control and dominate you and in reality you are not sovereign or free, but rather a subservient state whome we control"?

showkot, my fellow UK resident, please could you first tell us what you think of Mr Ayman al-Zawahri? Do you think he is a person that Muslims should be emulating? Is he your idea of a good 'Muslim'? Do you want him as your Khalifa?

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Malik73: *
showkot, my fellow **UK
* resident, please could you first tell us what you think of Mr Ayman al-Zawahri? Do you think he is a person that Muslims should be emulating? Is he your idea of a good 'Muslim'? Do you want him as your Khalifa?
[/QUOTE]

The world is not big enough for two khalifas! as long as khalifa Johnny Walker is there Ayman Shyman stand no chance. :)

Musharraff is like a puppet on a string it is embarassing on CNN and making statements to amerikkka like he is a good government worker.

" we are fighting these people who are well dug in in mud forts we are pounding them with artillery but they are fighting ferociously"

Pakistan cannot even be considered an independent state the evidence is so clear cut, Colin Powell comes over and says do this do that and we will think about giving you a piece of the pie!

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Fraudz: *
*Originally posted by camouflage: *
**Allah's Apostle said, "A Muslim is a brother of another Muslim, so he should not oppress him, *

the reign of terror of OBL and other assorted psychos like him is defacto oppression of people, and it is more than just that, it is murder of people. If i recall correctly there are plenty of hadeeth saying that thats a big No No.

*nor should he hand him over to an oppressor. *

2 points
1) one would have to define an oppressor - some stalwarts OBl-ites could make the case that even handing him to any court in the world is handing him to oppressors. The guy has been responsible for targetted and planned killing of innocent civilians and needs to pay for his deeds.

2) this is not stated to protect criminals.
[/QUOTE]

In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.
002.217
YUSUFALI: They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: "Fighting therein is a grave (offence); but graver is it in the sight of Allah to prevent access to the path of Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members." Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you Turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein.

The Mujahideen are responding to oppression that was started by the so called "civilized nations", which you seem to ignore.

You can claim that they are wrong or misguided, but that doesn't change the facts.

First define who is a "terrorist" and then defining "oppressor" would be easy.

Planned and targeted killing of innocent people is not justified no matter who does it, but it seems that you can't see the planned and targeted killings of innocent people by Pakistan Army, or by any other "civilized nation".

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Malik73: *

Let's also not forget that the whisky drinking and avowed secularlist Zulfikar Ali Bhutto was the first one to pander to the mullahs, and allow them to influence governement policies. Let us also not forget what he did to the Pashtun parties (NAP) and the NWFP at the time. He was a politician, not a soldier.
[/QUOTE]

Ohhh, whisky drinker and womanizer President Yahya Khan, what did he do? split Pakistan.

wait wait, Pakistan became known as "the Islamic Republic" when Field Marshal Ayub Khan was the president, and ZAB was also nurtured by Field Marshal Ayub Khan too.

Why then shouldn't the army be responsible for all the mess that Pakistan has been in?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by camouflage: *

Ohhh, whisky drinker and womanizer President Yahya Khan, what did he do?
[/QUOTE]

Read my post again. Let me repeat. Let's also not forget that the whisky drinking and avowed secularlist Zulfikar Ali Bhutto was the first one to pander to the mullahs...he was a politician, not a soldier. I don't think Yahya or Ayub were the first ones to pander to the mullahs which is part of the topic of this thread, not some other anti-military rant you want to make.

P.S. Pakistan was first titled "Islamic Republic of Pakistan" in 1956 by civilian Iskander Mirza, before the military came on the scene :)