Re: Armed mob sets fire to 20 houses, casualties feared
Ashamed to be a Pakistani after reading this horrific news....thank god my Parents left when they did.....
Pakistan is ranked the 7th worst country in the world to be a minority after Somalia, Sudan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Burma, and Congo.
Re: Armed mob sets fire to 20 houses, casualties feared
^^^ I think tragic as this incident is, its no where near as bad as media makes it out to be. In Pakistan there is no govt sponsored targeting of minorities & most of the time they stay under the radar screen & whenever something like this happens media blows in out proportion. People who are comparing this to Gujrat riots are out of touch with reality.
BTW, LHC has taken sou motuo action and the Parliament passed resolution condemning this incident. Lets wait and let the facts come out.
SLAMABAD: The National Assembly unanimously adopted a resolution on Monday condemning the weekend attack on the Christian community in Gojra in which seven people were burnt alive and calling for a stern action against the perpetrators of violence. The resolution was adopted after a debate on a motion on the incident moved by Parliamentary Affairs Minister Babar Awan.
The prime minister also strongly condemned the incident after speeches from both the opposition and treasury benches and informed the house that the Punjab government had already ordered a judiciary inquiry while orders had been issued for the assessment of damage.
The opposition PML-Q and a Christian member of the house, Asia Nasir, staged token walkouts to protest against alleged negligence of the Gojra administration.
OFFICIALS NAMED IN FIR
Federal Minister for Minorities’ Affairs Shahbaz Bhatti has held police and local administration officials responsible for last week’s violence in Gojra which claimed seven lives.
Addressing a press conference here on Monday after visiting Gojra on the instructions of President Asif Ali Zardari, he said that the strength of the police contingent deployed there was inadequate and the request to call Rangers was ignored.
He said that officials accused of criminal negligence had been named in the FIR, along with the attackers and the elements who incited the violence.
Over 100 houses were set ablaze and 100 houses were looted by a mob which included masked men.
The minister said there were indications that the masked men belonged to the banned Sipah-i-Sahaba organisation.
Answering a question, he said that involvement of foreign hand in the violence could not be ruled out. Some of the arrested people are being interrogated.
Results of the investigation would be made public and those found responsible would be taken to task, he added.
Mr Bhatti said Christians and Muslims had been living peacefully in the area for years. According to him, the incident was part of a conspiracy hatched by elements who want to sabotage inter-faith harmony.
The minister said it had been found that no incident of desecration of Holy Quran had taken place at a weeding ceremony. Rumours about alleged desecration were spread by some elements with some ulterior motive.
All the people who attended the ceremony said that no such incident had taken place, he added.
Re: Armed mob sets fire to 20 houses, casualties feared
Gojra incident could be averted: Taseer Updated at: 2229 PST, Tuesday, August 04, 2009
FAISALABAD: Governor Punjab Salman Taseer has said that incident of Gojra could be averted if police and administration had reacted diligently, efficiently and with sense of responsibility.
He was addressing Christians during his visit to Christian Colony, Catholic Church and village Korian near Gojra on Tuesday. The Governor expressed his shock and grief over this incident and said that such treatment to Christians in Pakistan of Quiad-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto and Mohtarma Benazir Bhutto is highly regrettable.
“The white strip in our national flag clearly admits the presence of minorities and PPP would continue its struggle for their fundamental rights,” he said and added that Christians are very dear to us as a Christian had committed suicide on the hanging of Shaheed Zulfikar Ali Bhutto.
“We are duty bound to protect their fundamental and constitutional rights, “ he added.
He said that President Asif Ali Zardari had also taken an immediate notice of this situation and sent Rangers to restore normalcy and protect Christians’ life and properties.
“We are also here to share your grievances and give you a sense of protection on the special directive of President Asif Ali Zardari,” he added.
Governor expressed surprise on the presence of large number of police officials during his visit and said that this incident could be avoided if police and administration had reacted efficiently and diligently. He assured Christians that federal government would help them and protect their life and property at all costs.
He also directed chairman Evacuee Trust Property to send engineers to undertake the work for the repair and construction of damaged houses.
“ He termed incident of Gojra as a black spot on Pakistan’s face and said that we all should make serious efforts to remove it as early as possible”.
“Gojra incident is not a sudden happening,” he said and added that it was a planned conspiracy. “Same elements are involved in it that had turned Swat into a hell,” he said and added we had flushed them out from Swat and would also eliminate them from Punjab.
He said that families of dead would get Rs.5 Lac while Rs.3 Lac would be given for the repair of damaged properties.
Federal Minister for Minorities Mr. Shahbaz Bhatti said that judicial inquiry into this incident has already been ordered and strict action would be taken against elements responsible of these riots. He said that President had asked him to go to Gojra to condole with the affectees.
“We would remain available here till their complete rehabilitation,” he assured.
Mr. Bhatti also said that this incident could be averted if police and administration had reacted efficiently. He said that President had taken immediate notice of this incident and sent Rangers to control the situation but it was a delayed action.
He termed this incident as a deep rooted conspiracy to sabotage the efforts of government to promote religious harmony. However, he said that elements involved in this riot would not be spared.
Rana Mohammad Farooq Saeed Khan federal minister for textile industry, provincial revenue minister Haji Muhammad Ishaq and Mohtarma Neelum Jabbar were also present.
Re: Armed mob sets fire to 20 houses, casualties feared
See another event in Punjab.
Public is out of control.They are only finding the way to show their frustration.
**Two dead in Muridke factory violence
**
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/c223c8804f15e991976abf00edfb04c3/gojra-ap-608.jpg?MOD=AJPERES
The incident comes on the heels of communal violence in Gojra and has left many fearing the worst — Photo from AP/File.
[Provinces
Gojra attack survivor recounts horror](http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/provinces/18-gojra-attack-survivor-recounts-horror-am-04)
**SHEIKHUPURA: A Factory owner and his security guard were killed as factory workers attacked them along the Muridke-Sheikhupura road, DawnNews reported.**
Conflicting reports have emerged over the reasons for the incident, with some reports suggesting the clash occurred over non-payment of dues at the factory, while others claim the attack was sparked by an accusation of desecration of the Quran.
DawnNews reported that heavy police contingents have made their way to the scene of the clash to defuse the situation.
hardly! if you werent so focused on denouncing the guy for his political difference
When did I denounce him for political differences?
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you would appreciate he took the legal means which is totally different from mob mentality. quite disingenuous to equate the two actions.
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I didnt equate the two actions. I said the mentality is the same (we'll kill you for what you said) and the fact that its enshrined in law doesnt help. Its merely vigilante enforcement of laws, sort of like the public punishing a robber instead of law enforcement.
Re: Armed mob sets fire to 20 houses, casualties feared
Really disgusting. I feel this is somehow related to politics, one party inciting violence to pull down other party/government, I may be wrong.
Re: Armed mob sets fire to 20 houses, casualties feared
i dont think abbasi was the one who introduced this law to pakistani constitute, i seem to remember you discrediting his reporting an offensive incident because he to you is a talib supporter. So tomorrow if someone disagrees with the main stream political propoganda or tactics any complain of his becomes invalid by default.
i think the law makes the religious philosophy of pakistan sacred and punishable offence. law doesnt necessarily force the death penalty, could be life imprisonment. i think you would agree that if a law is carried out by authorities there is no lynching and mob mentality involved anywhere. when the public starts handing out justice then alot of injustice is carried out in name of enforcement.
Please be more precise. I dont remember discrediting his reporting an offensive incident. As far as I can remember, and as this search suggests, I have not mentioned him by name atleast prior to my thread.
Having said this, I found his defence of the swati girl’s flogging very distasteful, and that is my only mental association with him. Not sure what else goes on his life, dont particularly care.
Yes when the public starts handing out justice there can be a lot of injustice, however just because something is law doesnt mean it is justice. There can be injustice at the hands of law enforcement even if they act according to their laws, which is the case in Pakistan for this particular issue. Furthermore nothing you say contradicts my point. The vigilante aspect aside there is very little difference between the mentality of ansar abbasi and those killing christian industrialists for an offensive calendar. When that mentality is enshrined in law, all the public can be chided for is being a little too enthusiastic about law and order.
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i am not aware of that , if khoji is your multinick then the thread you started has a comment to which i am referring, if it isnt i apologize for mistaking you for someone else.
i dont know abbasi’s thought on death penalty, to me his reporting an offensive mail is more indicative of his thoughts on blasphemy.I also feel blasphemy should be a punishable offence in an islamic country. As to what the penalty is , i think should be open to legal,religious debate. Furhter more no one other than authorities should be able to hand out punishments. The current law says life imprisonment along with death penalty so i still think your mistaken when you equate voilent lynching of a mob to that. i donot think the guy who wrote offensive emails has been handed the death penalty as of yet. so may be there are certain criterias that need to be met before the handing out of penalties.
The real problem here is the mosques lead by uneducated mullahs. These nut-job mullahs spread hatred against everyone who doesnt follow their faith. Their favorite targets are shias, ahmadies and chirstians. I am convinced this problem reached the boiling point due to these mullahs.
The only way to tackle this is to put these nut job mullahs in prison. At the very least remove the privilidges to use loudspeakers 5 times a day. No one denies that this is a prevalent problem in punjab. Political parties from punjab have been too chicken to tackle this problem head-on.
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i am not aware of that , if khoji is your multinick then the thread you started has a comment to which i am referring, if it isnt i apologize for mistaking you for someone else.
apology accepted. no khoji is not my multinick, although my other, now defunct, nick LockJaw also apparently never talked about Ansar Abbasi.
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i dont know abbasi's thought on death penalty, to me his reporting an offensive mail is more indicative of his thoughts on blasphemy.I also feel blasphemy should be a punishable offence in an islamic country. As to what the penalty is , i think should be open to legal,religious debate. Furhter more no one other than authorities should be able to hand out punishments. The current law says life imprisonment along with death penalty so i still think your mistaken when you equate voilent lynching of a mob to that. i donot think the guy who wrote offensive emails has been handed the death penalty as of yet. so may be there are certain criterias that need to be met before the handing out of penalties.
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I accept that there is a difference between legal punishment and lynching. That he went to the police is good, although really its not all that surprising. People use the means they have. An ordinary man on the street doesnt have the connections to get the FIA involved and the person arrested in a couple of days. Conversely newspaper editors usually dont go around lynching, even if they were so inclined.
It is the mentality of killing (and life imprisonment, not really a whole lot better, arguably worse) for something said that I question and criticize. We need to stop being so petulant, and we need to stop being such impotent insecure people. Kill christian industrialists in your own country (even if legally) where you can surround them and kill them without consequence while living in a world where every day much worse is said and tolerated because we cannot do anything about it. Smacks of insecurity. Urdu mai proverb hai, 'apni gali mai kutta bhi sher hota hai'. We need to stop proving over and over that we have this double standard of bravado and minority killing and 'we'll kill you for what you said' in our own countries and are powerless to do anything outside. if you want to see how powerless you are and how much abuse YOU ignore everyday without attempting killing/life imprisonment do a quick google search for Muhammad.
Re: Armed mob sets fire to 20 houses, casualties feared
Giving the already unreliable police and court system access to such a draconian law like the blasphemy law is the same is the one most stupidest things Zia introduced.
Re: Armed mob sets fire to 20 houses, casualties feared
This mentality is spreading fast, there is some serious motive behind all these 'blasphemy' attacks. Yesterday on news they were showing an old lady got accused of blasphemy and police arrested her and an enraged mob tried to get the lady probably to burn her/kill her. Really sick.
apology accepted. no khoji is not my multinick, although my other, now defunct, nick LockJaw also apparently never talked about Ansar Abbasi.
Thank you
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I accept that there is a difference between legal punishment and lynching. That he went to the police is good, although really its not all that surprising. People use the means they have. An ordinary man on the street doesnt have the connections to get the FIA involved and the person arrested in a couple of days. Conversely newspaper editors usually dont go around lynching, even if they were so inclined.
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no i still think slightly better of a person who rather than arranging a topi drama (which was very much in his power since he writes in a paper) of his his own piousness took the legal means available nor i do i begrudge him that. I already stated, (and this is where i guess we digress) that blasphemy shouldnt be ignored in Pakistan. It should be a punishable offence and rightly so, for to me a state founded on religion ought to make it obvious that religion is scared and to me the freedom of speech or expression opinion or anyother other freedom is not worth tolerating any vilification of Prophet pbuh.
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It is the mentality of killing (and life imprisonment, not really a whole lot better, arguably worse) for something said that I question and criticize. We need to stop being so petulant, and we need to stop being such impotent insecure people. Kill christian industrialists in your own country (even if legally) where you can surround them and kill them without consequence while living in a world where every day much worse is said and tolerated because we cannot do anything about it. Smacks of insecurity. Urdu mai proverb hai, 'apni gali mai kutta bhi sher hota hai'
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i guess i donot view it in the light that you do. Far as i know the penalty could be anything else as well as death penalty but once again it should be severe rather than a slap on the wrist. To me its anot a simple course we will kill you because you said something, rather there is death penalty for the consequences that you might produce with hate speech.Every suggested action has consequences. I donot want to see in Pakistan billboards of whether Prophet would like this pair of jeans and that pair of shorts. I want to keep it that way. As for people who donot believe in him to be messenger should also be sensible enough to appreciate that muslims find it offensive. To make it fair by all means impose the same restrictions on muslims where they are penalized for offencing minorities and their sacred values in Pakistan.
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We need to stop proving over and over that we have this double standard of bravado and minority killing and 'we'll kill you for what you said' in our own countries and are powerless to do anything outside. if you want to see how powerless you are and how much abuse YOU ignore everyday without attempting killing/life imprisonment do a quick google search for Muhammad.
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doesnot apply. In western countries,ever heard a talk back radio show, the callers are prohibited from naming any products and then crapping about them.There goes your freedom of speech, sure they donot hand out death penalties to those who call but the call is to be dropped such is capitalism for you. I donot find that a state that is run on religion should shirk away from applying the philosophy of its religion. the question that can be asked is whether death penalty is allowed by islam on blasphemy or not. I donot shy away from islam or the harsh penalties. Nor do i consider it barbaric or inhuman, the entire concept of islam and its suggested punishments is that sins are much graver and they shouldnt be taken lightly. The next step would be why rajim for zina bir riza and so on and so forth, the entire problem of muslim world is that naql kay liey bhi aql chahiyay if you must follow the trends of west follow in staying true to your professed philosophy not professing one thing and carrying out another.Another khawat in urdu is kawa chala hans ki chal apni chal bhi bhool gaya. Cruel to be kind, to me personally one doesnot adjust islam and its philosophies to better suit us. Once again jsut because internet is full of blasphemy is not a good excuse to apply the same rule to pakistani society and community. I would be very disappointed if muslims of pakistan get confused to the point where the freedom of expression is extended to ignoring open blasphemy.
Re: Armed mob sets fire to 20 houses, casualties feared
Where is this supposed open blasphemy in pakistan? It is in the mind of mad mullahs only.
^develop the intellect to follow a coherent conversation. i dont know what your "this" is but what i was discussing with ravage was is the penalty of blasphemy. if this is supposed to be this particular incident then once again read my comment on it on first page of this thread.
I have got to stop having the same argument in different places..
no i still think slightly better of a person who rather than arranging a topi drama (which was very much in his power since he writes in a paper) of his his own piousness took the legal means available nor i do i begrudge him that.
Yes it is slightly better. All I said was its not entirely surprising.
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I already stated, (and this is where i guess we digress) that blasphemy shouldnt be ignored in Pakistan. It should be a punishable offence and rightly so, for to me a state founded on religion ought to make it obvious that religion is scared and to me the freedom of speech or expression opinion or anyother other freedom is not worth tolerating any vilification of Prophet pbuh.
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Why does the state have to respond to something spoken? Dont tolerate it, but dont go around retaliating physically for something spoken. Ideally, rebut them. Boycott them socially and economically. An infinite number of approaches can be taken that are NOT burn the village OR hang/life imprison via the state.
In a country where you're 92% of the population, it is hard to believe that people need the state in order to save their sensitive ears from offence, and there is no other alternative except lynching.
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i guess i donot view it in the light that you do. Far as i know the penalty could be anything else as well as death penalty but once again it should be severe rather than a slap on the wrist. To me its anot a simple course we will kill you because you said something, rather there is death penalty for the consequences that you might produce with hate speech.Every suggested action has consequences. I donot want to see in Pakistan billboards of whether Prophet would like this pair of jeans and that pair of shorts. I want to keep it that way. As for people who donot believe in him to be messenger should also be sensible enough to appreciate that muslims find it offensive. To make it fair by all means impose the same restrictions on muslims where they are penalized for offencing minorities and their sacred values in Pakistan.
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The slippery slope argument is unconvincing because its non-factual. Even in the boogieman of secularism, Turkey, you dont have billboards of the Prophet in a pair of jeans and a pair of shorts. There are Muslim majority countries in the world that have never had blasphemy laws and never had the kind of abuse you are talking about.
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doesnot apply. In western countries,ever heard a talk back radio show, the callers are prohibited from naming any products and then crapping about them.There goes your freedom of speech,
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No it doesnt. Freedom of speech does not imply that you're also mandated a platform for speaking whatever you want. People may give you a platform for saying something they want to hear. Perfectly reasonable.
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I donot find that a state that is run on religion should shirk away from applying the philosophy of its religion. the question that can be asked is whether death penalty is allowed by islam on blasphemy or not. I donot shy away from islam or the harsh penalties. Nor do i consider it barbaric or inhuman, the entire concept of islam and its suggested punishments is that sins are much graver and they shouldnt be taken lightly. The next step would be why rajim for zina bir riza and so on and so forth,
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er next step? Pakistan atleast does not have rajm laws.
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the entire problem of muslim world is that naql kay liey bhi aql chahiyay if you must follow the trends of west follow in staying true to your professed philosophy not professing one thing and carrying out another.Another khawat in urdu is kawa chala hans ki chal apni chal bhi bhool gaya. Cruel to be kind, to me personally one doesnot adjust islam and its philosophies to better suit us. Once again jsut because internet is full of blasphemy is not a good excuse to apply the same rule to pakistani society and community. I would be very disappointed if muslims of pakistan get confused to the point where the freedom of expression is extended to ignoring open blasphemy.
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You present a reductive version of my argument. The prevalence of blasphemy outside your domain of control example is to demonstrate that it is possible, nay easy, to ignore blasphemy while being in virtual earshot of it.
^develop the intellect to follow a coherent conversation. i dont know what your "this" is but what i was discussing with ravage was is the penalty of blasphemy. if this is supposed to be this particular incident then once again read my comment on it on first page of this thread.
Leave it to mad mullahs to search for problems where none exist like how polio vaccines are evil and every non muslims in pakistan is out blaspheming islam.
Leave it to mad mullahs to search for problems where none exist like how polio vaccines are evil and every non muslims in pakistan is out blaspheming islam.
yes yes khehkeshan now that you have shared your profound bit of take on blasphemy law, continue sleeping.
so far so good. which is why discussing is worth it. We atleast come to see a bit of each others perspective.
burn the village is a not a state approach. State thankfully consults experts before making a law. Blasphemy is a sin, not a crime. In a religious state sins are punished and thats how religion gets involved in state. Experts in this case would be alims, scholars. Not all alims are genuine nor all are experts but an average muslim simply doesnot have enough knowledge to formulate a law and penalty. Blatantly ignoring all the alims and all the discussion is a sad repression of a faction of your society. Which gets worse considering we Islamic republic of pakistan.
yep i am sensitive, i have sensitive ears and doesnt bother me two bit what human right regimes say about my sensitivity.(And for that matter blasphemy law exist in most european coutnires as well) Blasphemy ignored is blasphemy encouraged. You donot provide a feasible alternative to me ravage. why should i ignore it? it is offensive and i dont wish to see a prevalent trend of it.
Turkey puts novelist on trial for blasphemy
i dont think blasphemy is ignored in turkey how they penalised the offender is different.
besides that is a hefty claim to make about turkey. To say that turkey is in complete compliance with laws declared civil and humane by international standarads and second that in turkey how blasphemy is dealt with and thirdly how prevalent it is in turkish society. In any case you must look towards a prodigy when talking about secular human rights law and in most of these countries, jesus in jeans is a common phenomena.
lol in this case there is no mandate that people set. Its the sponsors and their merzi. Sadly i find you argument baseless. Democracy is not an ultimate democracy for constitution or the amount of power MNCs and their CEOs hold in various laws would be out of the window. The very campaign run for democratic candiadates is funded by money and who holds the purse strings has influence. In our case the influence is of who holds our lives religon, Allah.this is going to turn into a long lond discussion if you take me down this road. freedom of speech is limited even in western societies where it clashes with power and interets, do you think usa held a referendum before baning aljazeera?
thanks to mushy. islam does and i find it absurd to say the least that now we must ignore all alims of recent past and ancient history to come up with islamic penalties. Mockery of religion at best and gross method of distorting it under the guise of updating.
as you present a reductive version of blasphemy laws. Ravage think logically.if blasphemy is to be ignored with every new generation the regard for Prophet pbuh and the notion of respect would decrease as it so evidently has in christian secular countries. I am sorry but i cant feign blindness (when i can very clearly see the end result) to appease the sensibilities of non muslims and their norms. Nor do i see why pakistanis should.