Arguments against Quran Only/Hadith rejectors

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Arguments against Quran Only/Hadith rejectors

'following the Prophet' does not necessarily mean his 'siffaat' (his hairstyle etc etc) it means speech, actions and tacit approval.

both Orientalists AND Muslim scholars agree that there have existed FORGED /unauthentic hadith whether the hadith was questionable intentionally or erronously . The difference between the two groups is that the Orientalists insisted that ALL ahadith were forgeries, produced AFTER the death of the Prophet (pbuh) unless proven otherwise (a dog chasing his tail kind of theory, read about it) and the Muslim scholars insist that the unauthentic ahadith are the exception.

**It is NOT a fact that 'no one knows for sure which are 100% words of prophet' **as Seminole says.

The sheer zeal and thoroughness with which the narrations were made and the diligence with which Muslim scholars have studied, fearlessly, the isnad system and the various sciences associated with it, such as 'Ilm al-Rijaal (to establish the reliability of a specific individual), Riwaya, The Matn (text) itself, Diraya, 'Ilm al-jarH wa'-Ta'dil, 'Ilm riwayat al-Hadith etc etc. Every individual in these chains of transmission have been studied too... In any case, the great collators like Bukhari and Muslim, even IF they had doubt about a specific hadith, after including it in their works, they would put a note after it.

There are also biographical dictionaries (Fihrists) detailing about individuals' travels, whereabouts, dates, occupations etc etc... so they could determine who was likely to have met whom... etc etc You have Ibn al-Jawzi's works about hadith forgers, called Kitab al-Mawdu'at etc etc... Basically the amount and depth of work on hadith criticism is phenomenal... So please be careful and study it as much as you can before passing conclusions... The Muslim scholars of those centuries were unbelieveably great minds and so very dedicated. I think it is kind of unjust to just say no one knows for sure without even studying an ounce compared to them...

I strongly suggest if anyone has doubts then to seriously study the subject wholeheartedly before passing any conclusions, for their own sake.

So, tell me, if it doesnt mean to follow ahadith, what does 'follow the Prophet' mean then?

(In any case, this is not the topic of this thread. The point of this thread was accountability for the one who does not believe that the body of ahadith should be followed. )

wAllahu A'lam

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Re: Arguments against Quran Only/Hadith rejectors

1) I don't think I ever said ALL ahadith were infallible or that they were like the Qur'an. No Muslim scholar would say it is 100% infalliable, or that it is infallible at all.
2) Allah is aware of everyones intention.
3) What is the worst thing you could do by following a specific hadith which would cause you sin? Just trying to get an idea of the type of accountability you're talking about.
4)"The Prophet himself never followed the Hadith, he followed the Quran." I'm having a few problems understanding how one could use this as a basis for arguing your point of view.
5) Do you think that the Qur'an can be, for the average person of average intelligence, a complete code of conduct for a Muslim? Does it tell him everything he needs to know, in your opinion? Is it a comprehensive legal text?

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Re: Arguments against Quran Only/Hadith rejectors

YES

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Re: Arguments against Quran Only/Hadith rejectors

SubhanAllah! I used to think so too :)
Please explain why you adhere to this idea, or how you understand this to be possible :)

And then please explain what you think 'follow the Prophet (s)' means, in your opinion.

Looking forward to your reply inshaAllah :)

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Re: Arguments against Quran Only/Hadith rejectors

We can follow the prophet by following what he left behind…

There seems to be 3 versions of Last Sermon of the Prophet. Here are the references to the three versions of one sentence in the Sermon.

01). I leave with you the Quran and my Sunnah. Muwatta, 46/3

02). I leave with you the Quran and Ahl al-bayt. Muslim 44/4, Nu2408; Ibn Hanbal 04/366; Darimi 23/1, Nu 3319.

03). I leave for you the Qur’an alone you shall uphold it. Muslim 15/19, no. 1218; Ibn Majah 25/84, Abu Dawud 11/56. So…

Quran & Ahl ul Bayt 1 out of 3. Quran & Sunnah 1 out of 3. Quran 3 out of 3 that should speak to the issue. But will it?

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Re: Arguments against Quran Only/Hadith rejectors

And what does the Qur'an say about following the Prophet (pbuh)?
It is possible for us to go round and round in circles here :)
But SubhanAllah, evidently this is an intellectual decision that we all have a right to make.

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Re: Arguments against Quran Only/Hadith rejectors

1) There has to be an error somewhere because it is a man made book, but there are authentic sayings of the prophet in there as well. The prophet has catch phrases and you'll notice him using them.
2) My intention is to do whatever God wants me to do and be safe from hell. Finding the path of least liability is in accordance with what God says, that people with fear of God will be given the ability to choose right from wrong. I'm doing this to make sure I don't go to hell.
3) It depends on what is being interpreted. There was that incident in Saudi Arabia where girls were killed in a fire. They weren't allowed to leave a building because they weren't fully covered. I wouldn't support that and would've charged those people with murder. I'm also against the killing of apostates and there are other minor things. If I kill an apostate and it was not supported, I would go to hell.
4) The Question was, how are you following the Prophet without the Hadith? My answer is that the Prophet followed the Quran and so I am following the Quran. When I say he didn't follow the Hadith I'm saying, why should I be held accountable for only following the Quran when the Prophet only followed the Quran?
5) I think so but you shouldn't go off of me. God says that it is easy to follow, easy to remember, and complete. So yes, it is a complete legal text and it is a contract between any one of us and God. Now if there is going to be someone who wants to ask, "How come the Quran doesn't say what color of hat I should wear when praying?" and then says the Quran is incomplete. I'd say he/she is like Moses' people asking what kind of cow God wants, as said in 2:67-2:71. God is willing to be more descriptive but it comes at the cost of making it a more difficult and specific contract.

Now, getting back to the argument. Is there any way I could be held accountable for not following the Hadith that I'm not seeing? I'm ready to give up if there are no arguments.

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Re: Arguments against Quran Only/Hadith rejectors

I still don't agree with some of your examples but :) ALLAHU A'LAM

And from an academic point of view, having studied Islamic Law, it is evident that the Qur'an is **not **a complete legal text. It doesn't, for example, outline all legal punishments (if you are interested, read Mahmoud Tahir, 'Law in the Qur'an- A Draft Code' or Kamalis 'Principles of Islamic Jurisprudence'). I think your 'Moses' people' example was a bit far-fetched, too. But again, that's just me.

I always take 'obey Allah' to be a reference to the Qur'an and 'obey the Prophet (pbuh) to be a reference to ahadith, otherwise it's just like saying 'obey the Qur'an' twice. But that's just me.

Don't give up on your question until you get an answer from somewhere. Let us know if you find what you're looking for. I am also going to look into it more inshaAllah and will let you know if I find anything new.

" O ye who believe! obey Allah and obey the Apostle and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything amongt yourselves refer it to Allah and His Apostle if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: that is the best and most suitable for final determination. " --- Surah An-Nisaa 4:59

May He guide us all to the right path and forgive our shortcomings. Ameen

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Re: Arguments against Quran Only/Hadith rejectors

well not to interject your discourse with hypnotix here; I believe he's more than qualified to respond. I'm just stepping back looking at the argument and here's the real issue.

What if there IS an alternate explanation for "Following the Messenger".. what if that concludes that it DOES NOT point to the hadith? How willing will people be to accept it since a MAJOR part of their belief rides on their current understanding. The new explanation would directly belittle or even render useless their years of knowledge and understanding of their religion.

That is the core issue here.. the reticence of people to accept they could have been wrong, their elders could have been wrong and entire generations could have been in error.

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I can tell you’ve been studying Islam. It seems I’m going to have to buy those books. I couldn’t find the first and the second has the cheapest price on astrolabe.com but it’s out of stock. I’ll get e-mailed once it’s in stock. I was able to get a glimpse of a couple of pages, I hope they don’t mean verse abrogation when they mention abrogation.

If by legal text you mean that it doesn’t outline the punishment for every crime, then I would agree that it is not a complete legal text.  If you mean that the Quran is not complete in terms of religion and that other sources are required then I would have to accept God’s word, that it is complete, over yours to be safe.

In the example of Moses, I'm trying to correlate the similarity between the people of Moses asking for details and our people asking for details. You see, when God asked for a cow to sacrifice, they could’ve brought anything, even a sick old cow. But they didn’t want to sacrifice a cow so they pestered Moses in the hopes of putting it off. So then God gave them more specific details, and chose the best cow, which made them even more reluctant to the point that they almost didn’t do it.

The lesson to be learned is that additional details in the Quran make for a harder contract to follow.   Considering what is defined in the Quran for prayer, all one has to do is adhere to the times, bow down, prostrate, and praise God, etc.  Now suppose the Hadith was part of our contract between God.  This would require that Muslims learn Arabic to the fluency level of the Prophet.  If you cannot pronounce each verse correctly then your prayer may not count.  Anyone that has difficulty in learning Arabic would then be going to hell.  This would not be justice.  This is why I think that the Quran says it is complete.  What is left out is left out on purpose, and for any level of detail that the Quran would achieve you could always ask for more.

[quote]

I always take 'obey Allah' to be a reference to the Qur'an and 'obey the Prophet (pbuh) to be a reference to ahadith, otherwise it's just like saying 'obey the Qur'an' twice. But that's just me.
[/quote]

That’s your interpretation and you’re entitled to it. My interpretation is that the verse has to be there because Jews would say “We obey God, but we do not obey the Prophet”. They would think that since they believe in God everything is fine, even though they reject any command that God gives to them through any messenger. And I’m not picking on the Jews, as there are non-Jewish people who end up as spiritualists and say the same thing. The fact is that the Prophet is not entitled say anything on behalf of God that isn’t from God. If the Prophet asked me for a cup of tea and I was out, I’d tell him I’m out of tea and ask if he would like something else. See, I don’t think I’d go to hell because I didn’t try hard enough for that cup of tea. Now if God revealed through the prophet that I should always obey the Prophet because he always speaks the word of God. Then if the prophet asks for a cup of tea, I’ll go to the next town over if I have to, but I’m going to drop everything and get that cup of tea for him no matter what.

[quote]

Don't give up on your question until you get an answer from somewhere. Let us know if you find what you're looking for. I am also going to look into it more inshaAllah and will let you know if I find anything new.
[/quote]

I don’t think this is going to happen. I’ve already gone to an Imam at my Mosque, asked friends and family, gone through every internet article I could find. And now, asked in two forums specifically for this argument. I think I’ve done as much as I could to fulfill 4:59. I guess the only other thing I could do is read that book you mentioned, but I don't think it will address this issue.

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Re: Arguments against Quran Only/Hadith rejectors

I'm going to say that they won't be willing at all. The structure of most religious groups is that most of the entry level members do not use their reasoning. If there is a problem they hope for their leaders to address it. If their leaders do not address it they don't do much about it. So yeah, even if you could prove that following the messenger means to follow something else besides the hadith, the majority of the group will just follow their leaders.

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My 2 cents as a non-Muslim observer on the importance of hadith.

Early Muslims so revered the prophet that they thought the best way to please God was to do everthing exactly the way he did. Not just in the broad "this is the right thing to do and it will please God", but, "if Muhammed did it that way, then I must do it the same way because God said to follow his example". Muslims of the time were so anxious to do things this new and right way (and to diffrientiate themselves from the other people of the Book) and prove their legitimacy that they started to record everything anyone said that they ever heard the prophet say or do.

The history, need and desire to be different from the rest of the world, stay true to their roots of righteousness and keep the "culture" of Islam, has caused a stagnation in the way Islam is interpreted as compared to other religions. To abandon the way God's word was interpreted by the best of all people and admit that the interpretation of Islam has not grown over the past 3 or 4 centuries is not a pleasant thought to those who continue to influence present day Islam.

I think slowy it is being interpreted in a less literal and fundamentalist way, with the Quran put into a historical perspective without all the subsequent history and drama, but the history and culture of the hadith is hard to let go.

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Re: Arguments against Quran Only/Hadith rejectors

As appropriated in the Quran: …قَالُوا وَجَدْنَا عَلَيْهَا ءابَاءنَا وَاللَّهُ امَرَنَا بِهَا…

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Re: Arguments against Quran Only/Hadith rejectors

Yusuf Ali Say: "Obey Allah and obey the Apostle: but if ye turn away he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him ye shall be on right guidance. The Apostle's duty is only to preach the clear (Message)."

Pickthall Say: Obey Allah and obey the messenger. But if ye turn away, then (it is) for him (to do) only that wherewith he hath been charged, and for you (to do) only that wherewith ye have been charged. If ye obey him, ye will go aright. But the messenger hath no other charge than to convey (the message), plainly.

Transliteration Qul atiul la_ha wa atiur rasu_l fa in tawal lau fa in nama alaihi ma_ hum mila wa alaikum ma_ hum miltum wa in tutiu_hu tahtadu_ wa ma_ alar rasu_li il lal bala_gul mubin
----Surah An-Nur, Ruku 7, 24:54

Note by Abdullah Yusuf Ali: 'If you disobey Allah's commands as explained by His Prophet, you are not going to be forced. The Prophet's mission is to train your will and explain clearly all the implications of your conduct. The responsibility for your conduct rests entirely on yourselves.’

Also note: the imperative verb *aTee'u *means 'to obey' and not 'to follow'. Check the Hans Wehr or Lane lexicon/dictionary. I don;t know if you find that important but I think it is pretty relevant.

I appreciate all your points Kantan. Please try and find the material suggested, I think it will help inshaAllah. Furthermore, I suspect it is classified as an intellectual right, which is justified by ones intention (not for ease or convenience, but genuinely what they believe to be correct). Thus we already have 'Qur'an-Only-Islam' groups. Those to whom the idea appeals, adhere to those groups. And those to whom it doesn't appeal, they stick to what they think is best. But I'm pretty sure both groups have the same intention- to find the best way by His Grace. Thus, He is All-Knowing, Most-Merciful, alhamdulillah, and we hope he will judge us according to our intention. That is also another reason why I disagree with PakistaniAbroad who said*:*

What if there IS an alternate explanation for "Following the Messenger".. what if that concludes that it DOES NOT point to the hadith? How willing will people be to accept it since a MAJOR part of their belief rides on their current understanding. The new explanation would directly belittle or even render useless their years of knowledge and understanding of their religion.

I think alternative interpretations of 'obey the Prophet' are just that, interpretations. And people act on the varying interpretations according to their own understanding. It could not be 100% conclusive. And in any case, it would not belittle or render useless a body of social and personal instruction that has proved to be largely successful since its inception.

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Re: Arguments against Quran Only/Hadith rejectors

Abeera, while I deeply respect your sentiment, I would urge you not to halt at intention alone. It is one’s best interest to keep re-evaluating at every turn and to keep looking for the truth (unlike those who have been quoted in the part of the aayat I posted earlier)

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Excellent point.. and it favors those who object to the broad use of these verses to include anything and everything that can remotely be associated with the Prophet. It's not 'follow' it's 'Obey'.. more direct and in the absence of the 'orders' or the 'commandment' in context should beg the question.. Obey 'what'?

[quote]
And in any case, it would not belittle or render useless a body of social and personal instruction that has proved to be largely successful since its inception.
[/quote]

This 'body of social and personal instruction' has only been successful in misleading and confusing an entire Ummah eventually dividing them into sects and dependent on their respective Maulanas to interpret their religion for them.

I fail to see any good coming out of it.. but we disagree on that.

me naraaz hoon sab sey *snooty*
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Re: Arguments against Quran Only/Hadith rejectors

Just in case anyone finds these related ayat interesting :slight_smile: I won’t highlight or bolden any part of these ayat.

3:312:
And obey Allah and the Apostle; that ye may obtain mercy.

4:59:
O ye who believe! obey Allah and the Apostle and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves refer it to Allah and His Apostle if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: that is best and most sutiable for final determination.

4:64:
We sent not an Apostle but to be obeyed in accordance with the will of Allah. If they had only when they were unjust to themselves come unto thee and asked Allah’s forgiveness and the Apostle had asked forgiveness for them they would have found Allah indeed Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.

4:66:
If We had ordered them to sacrifice their lives or to leave their homes very few of them would have done it: but if they had done what they were (actually) told it would have been best for them and would have gone farthest to strengthen their (faith).

4:80:
He who obeys the Apostle obeys Allah: but if any turn away We have not sent thee to watch over their (evil deeds).

8:20:
O ye who believe! obey Allah and his Apostle and turn not away from him when ye hear (him speak).

8:46:
And obey Allah and His Apostle; and fall into no disputes lest ye lose heart and your power depart; and be patient and persevering: for Allah is which those who patiently persevere.

24:51:
The answer of the Believers when summoned to Allah and His Apostle in order that he may judge between them is no other than this: they say “We hear and we obey”: it is such as these that will attain felicity."

47:33:
O ye who believe! obey Allah and obey the Apostle and make not vain your deeds!

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Sure thing:

4:64 We have sent no Messenger but that he should be obeyed by Allah’s leave. (Why then is the Torah and Gospel mentioned and not the Hadith/Sunnah of Moses and Jesus?) They are not sent with hypotheses, but to show people how they can establish an equitable society, in which people flourish individually and collectively. They attain personal development and become worthy of immortal life in the Paradise (89:29). If anyone hurts his or her "Self" by transgressing His Laws, or wrongs a member of the community, he or she must come to the Messenger, the Central Authority of the System, to make amends. Sitting back at home and praying in hiding won’t help (9:102-105, 20:82, 5:10). The Messenger will then, decide the matter seeing if there is room for forgiveness in the Divine Law. Such is the Moral Order that the Messenger has inculcated in the hearts and in the society where one becomes the watcher over one's own "Self" (8:74-75, 9:100, 48:29, 59:8-9). Indeed, there is plenty of room for making amends, and for mercy in the Divine System. Allah is Acceptor of repentance, Merciful.

4:65 By your Lord, They do not really believe unless they make you (O Prophet) a judge in all their disagreements. And then find no hesitation in their hearts in accepting your judgment, and submit with full submission.

4:66 And if We had decreed for them, “Lay down your lives,” or “Forsake your homelands,” a few of them would do it. Although, if they did as was admonished, it would be for their own good, and a cause for strengthening themselves.

4:80 Whoever obeys the Messenger, automatically obeys Allah since he rules by the Book of Allah (5:44). But if they turn away, We have not sent you as a watcher over them.

4:81 They express verbal allegiance to the System, “It is Obedience!” But when they go away from you a party of them spends the night in planning against the Belief System you preach. They discuss ways to corrupt the Message. Allah records what they plan by night. Ignore them, go ahead with your Program and trust in Allah (6:107). Allah is Sufficient as Guardian.

4:82 Will they not then, try to understand this Qur’an? (This does not say through what the prophet explains to you on his own) If it were from other than Allah (one more indication - the prophet could not have added to Allah's message) they would surely have found in it much contradiction.

8:20 O You who have chosen to be graced with belief! Obey Allah and His Messenger. Listen to him when he speaks, without getting distracted. (The only thing we know and can be DEAD sure of what those around the prophet heard him say, was the Quran - the hadith are narrations from what people had remembered ... and most of it was collected at least a couple of centuries later - look at the timeline of hadith collection)

AND THEN :)

4:87 Allah! There is no god but He. He will summon all of you on the Day of Resurrection about the advent of which there is no doubt. Who can tell you a more reliable HADITH (saying) than Allah?

7:185 Can they not see (and correlate what he tells them with) the Dominion of the heavens and the earth and what Allah has created? Does it ever occur to them that the end of their own life may be near (hence the time to make the right decisions is not unlimited)? What HADITH besides the Qur’an, are they going to believe after him?

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Re: Arguments against Quran Only/Hadith rejectors

I am really impressed by arguments in this discussion, both by Katan and Abeera. It seems that Gupshup is maturing afterall.

We need to follow Ahadith as well, no doubt if proven beyond doubt that they are words of prophet. How do we do that? If early muslim scholars were strict in development of criteria. that is good. However it is an academic discipline and we cannot stop later Muslims from criticizing the earlier scholars in their efforts. Problems start when people start comparing Bukharee with Quran like calling it second most authentic book after Quran. They try to make 'belief in Bukharee' a part of Islam and call you heretic and Kafir if you are a bukaree skeptic. We must understand that things which were ultimately important like avoidance of shirk were described by Allah in Quran. Now if you do not believe in a specific riwayat of Bukharee, you are not a kafir. Kafir is one who disbelieve on oneness of Allah. Our ulemas have been expanding the definition ever since.

My limited knowledge tells me to follow Hazrat Umar's method of attributing a riwayat to Hazrat Muhammad. He used to ask the sahabee (who used to make an attribution to prophet) to bring a witness. I am amazed that our Hadees collectors never followed his way and invented new methods of judgement of reliability of Hadees.

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MKF, that is a MILLION DOLLAR QUESTION…

ugrrrrrrr + Height