Are we (Muslims in West) really invulnerable?

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Re: Are we (Muslims in West) really invulnerable?

Brevik is one nut job. But I do think Muslims in Europe have a tougher time because a lot of them live in segregated communities, and have done so for a few generations. Immigrants to the US and Canada are relatively new and a lot of them arrive based on their skill set or affluence; they are much more successful economically and socially so it's harder to paint them as terrorists.

Also, keep in mind that mass Muslim immigrations are a relatively new phenomenon. It will take decades for Muslims to become fully integrated. Italians and Eastern Europeans were considered "immigrants" until fairly recently. Jews were actually excluded from the Ivy leagues as recently as the early 1900s. Look at them now lol.

Basically, it will take some time but I don't think it will ever come to a mass exodus unless certain pockets of immigrants become very extreme.

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Re: Are we (Muslims in West) really invulnerable?

What ALLAH SWT said about this in Quran Al Kareem


Al Baqara - 120

I dont mean to say get out of there, just be aware, dont be in shock when it comes to it, its bound to happen. and of course those who cannot take the heat, its better for them to move out before its too late.

Southie: its not for you, plz stay away.

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Re: Are we (Muslims in West) really invulnerable?

I rest my case.

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Re: Are we (Muslims in West) really invulnerable?

Thank God i saw this coming, so i left. but i am visiting New York next month, coz that’s where the booz and party is …

Hail West !

**

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Re: Are we (Muslims in West) really invulnerable?

Safer environment is in place for the brits, canadians, germans, australians? They are definitely well placed. However, I just cant see how the americans could claim for the same.

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Re: Are we (Muslims in West) really invulnerable?

Keeping in mind the current economic crisis I don't see how being more successful and affluent than other minorities and the whites can be a plus point?

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Re: Are we (Muslims in West) really invulnerable?

I don't see myself living in UK in a few years.

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Re: Are we (Muslims in West) really invulnerable?

So what's your back-up plan? :D

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Re: Are we (Muslims in West) really invulnerable?

Success in your career means you are more valuable to the country, plain and simple. Higher educated individuals are also more likely to be integrated into Western society, as opposed to living in segregated communities. Being a drain on the economy, and not "fitting in" are among the most common "concerns" that right wingers have. It's hard to make that claim against Desis, in the US and Canada at least. Look at any engineering or med school class and you'll see plenty of brown kids.

This doesn't mean that there aren't any challenges, just that success makes it easier for minorities to integrate into society.

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Re: Are we (Muslims in West) really invulnerable?

I agree with the point about segregated communities (and generally a more insular nature) but I don't think the amount of time desi Muslims have lived here (in the UK anyway) is a good enough reason to explain the problems.. Indians arrived around the same time but have done much better academically, economically and have been quicker to shed more of the negative aspects of their old culture (forced marriages etc).. When I was young it was common for Pakistani + Bangladeshi women to not be allowed to learn English or learn to drive.. Teachers also used to complain about Pak schoolgirls being sent 'back home' to stop them becoming too westernised, having bfs etc. which obviously held a lot of them back in terms of education.. Attitudes like this weren't widespread in other communities so it's been a lot easier for them to move forward more quickly.. Obviously things are changing but when you're looking back instead of forwards you're prob always going to be at the tail-end of things imo..

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Re: Are we (Muslims in West) really invulnerable?

being westernized and having bfs is indicative of ‘moving forward’ and ‘better education’ ? :konfused:

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Re: Are we (Muslims in West) really invulnerable?

Yes, obviously :rolleyes:

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Re: Are we (Muslims in West) really invulnerable?

You can do all the integration and stuff on your part but it’s not going to make any difference unless the other party is ready to accept you.

A quote from Tony Mckenna’s article on Zizek’s analyses.

"A report from the FBI database covering the period from 1980-2005 *shows that only 6% of attacks occurring on US homeland soil were conducted by Islamic extremists. *However the media coverage of terrorism concentrates disproportionately on Islamic acts, sometimes even going as far as to assume the presence of Muslim fundamentalists without any supporting evidence. Violence against women, and particularly those cases in which victims are murdered in the name of ‘family honour’ are increasingly portrayed as a widespread Muslim phenomenon, though better informed studies such as one carried out by *the United Nations Commission on Human Rights have reported that such crimes are indeed cross-cultural. Žižek’s *analysis can help us make sense of how the theme of Islam may contribute to consolidating disparate social fears and traumas into a genocidal imaginary. This may look like a strong claim. Yet hints of its truth may be found even in the language of those who are in the political mainstream. In 2008, the now US secretary of defence Hillary Clinton felt sufficiently inflamed to threaten to obliterate the Islamic Republic of Iran if it launched an attack against Israel. This might be dismissed as bellicose sabre rattling if similar examples had not multiplied. Last month, for instance, disturbing reports exposed how a US military college has been teaching its alumni that there is no such thing as ‘moderate Islam’ and moreover exhorting trainees to forget the ‘irrelevant’ al-Qaida as their main enemy in order to concentrate on the Islamic faith itself.
Even self-proclaimed rational intellectuals such as the *New Atheists*let elements of this hostile rhetoric slip into their discourses, as when, for instance, the late Christopher Hitchens fantasized about the destruction of Islamic ‘enemy troops’ as the steel pellets of cluster bombs ‘go straight through somebody and out the other side and through somebody else. And if they’re bearing a Koran over their heart, it’ll go straight through that, too.’

http://www.opendemocracy.net/tony-mckenna/exploring-fascist-roots-of-islamophobia

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Re: Are we (Muslims in West) really invulnerable?

You are citing foreign policy initiatives. Hitchens, Iran, and the portrayal of Islam as the new bogeyman should not affect Muslims domestically if we are truly integrated. If people don’t understand Islam, they’ll look to any Muslims they personally know for an example. If we set a good example, then TV brain washing can only do so much.

The Ground Zero community center had people who defended Muslims’ rights. The Tennessee mosque was vehemently opposed, but Muslims were able to move forward, and had the support of many white Americans. People understand that not all Muslims are terrorists, but just as the media hypes of Muslims as terrorists, it also hypes up the bigots and warmongers.

Like I said earlier, and as Deeba pointed out, I think European Muslims have a bigger problem in terms of integrating, and it works both ways. Muslims are hesitant about integrating, and non-Muslims are wary of Muslims because of the current political climate. I personally would like to see expats returning home, but for that to happen, the country as to change. Unfortunately, we now view any kind of progress as Western. I wish half the clowns on here could see Iran, Afghanistan, and Pakistan in the 50’s and 60’s. They would be shocked at how liberal the country was.

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Re: Are we (Muslims in West) really invulnerable?

I think it's a selection bias. A lot of Muslim immigrants in Europe were brought in for labour. Much like Italian immigrants in America. With lower pay, and a less open society in those days, combined with the immigrants' likely lower level of education, it leads to a more segregated mindset. On the other hand, a more open society, and skilled immigrants, as is the case with recent Muslim immigrations, results in a different mindset.

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Re: Are we (Muslims in West) really invulnerable?

Okay ghost this is what i have concluded from your posts, correct me if I'm wrong.

1) immigrants who are labourers are unsuccessful.

2) because they're labourers they'll never be able to integrate with whites.

3) integration is liberalism.

4) the fascist element in west doesn't exist and right wingers love Brown people.

In short, secularization and monoculture is the key for Muslims to get accepted in West.

???

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Re: Are we (Muslims in West) really invulnerable?

Not quite.

1) Being a labourer in the 60's was not exactly helpful in terms of integrating and achieving higher education in the West. Look at African Americans in the US for example. Because it was harder, people clung to what they knew, their communities and Islam. In the end, this hurts their children and subsequent generations. I'm not saying people who came as labourers can't be unsuccessful, just that it makes it much harder to do so, and thus, fewer families had upward social mobility.

2) No. If you only associate with Muslims and Pakistanis, then you have no motivation to integrate with whites. It's not just a matter of ability, it's also a matter of desire. Desire to integrate is something that is sometimes lacking in the US and Canada as well, the problem is that the Desi communities are generally smaller, and people have a variety of careers that require interaction with non-Muslims. I visited the UK a few years ago and there was a town (sorry I don't remember the name) where I literally only saw like 2 white people. Is that helpful in terms of integration? Do you blame white people for feeling a bit threatened by that? How would you feel if a town in Pakistan was strictly white and Christian?

3) Again no. But a right wing Christian is unlikely to associate with a Muslim. Liberalism is more conducive to a harmonious society, lest we all live in segregated communities.

4) I don't think I said that. It does exist, and always will. What segregation does is make the centrists question Muslims' willingness to integrate. That's what has happened in a lot of countries in Europe, which is very unfortunate. Centrists are beginning to listen to the Geert Wilders of the world. Of course the economy and politics don't help.

Secularization is a big part of America and Canada, I'm not sure about the UK (Church of England) and the rest of Europe. If you will not meet a non-Muslim because they drink then you are excluding a lot of people from your social circle. Why stay in Western countries then? People are willing to give Muslims a chance, but we have to be willing to meet them halfway. We are in their countries. We can't demonize secularism, the same laws that empower us to live here and make any kinds of demands, and ask Westerners to adheres to Islamic principles.

Bottom line: I'm preaching tolerance and acceptance. If you believe that Muslims are inevitably going to be kicked out, then why would you stay in the West?

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Re: Are we (Muslims in West) really invulnerable?

^thanks for the explanation.

Regarding your question, I have started to look at other options.....my husband and I both have been considering moving out for few years now. We don't know what's gonna happen in coming years, the situation might get better or might get worse, don't know.

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Re: Are we (Muslims in West) really invulnerable?

I think its a myth that integrating in your adopted society makes you safer, specially in the long run. White supremacists hate foreigners more when they see them integrated. They get more jealous of them when they see foreigners getting successful in their country.

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Re: Are we (Muslims in West) really invulnerable?

Yeah I apologize if I offended you, or anyone else. Are things actually bad in your part of the world? I would consider moving back but down the line when I want to pursue entrepreneurship.