Because it is a totally different religion, with a different message, different emphasis, different scripture, different rituals, different prophet, different path to salvation, different historical facts, etc. Calling the previous versions, intepretation, scripture and practices of the Abrahamic religions corrupted; stripping prophets of divinity; and contradicting the teachings of that divine prophet do not add up to a 'continuation' in anyone else's book other than Muslims.
Perhaps but the irony that you wished to highlight in your post doesnt make sense then, because Muslims in their view of monotheism are including the faiths they think theyre a continuation of, regardless of whether or not you see their faith the same way.
Perhaps but the irony that you wished to highlight in your post doesnt make sense then, because Muslims in their view of monotheism are including the faiths they think theyre a continuation of, regardless of whether or not you see their faith the same way.
I don't see where this post addresses anything different. I'm not denying that Muslims think Islam is a continuation. That has been established. I was speaking of the non-Muslim pov.
Muslims believe it is because the previous versions were corrupted. Got it. That doesn't change the fact that those differences are fundamental and faith changing differences that make Islam a totally different religion than the previous Abrahamic religions. Islam has always been thought of by Christians and secular alike as originating with the teachings of Muhammed.
Semi, this post might deserve a separate thread for discussion. Would you like to?
Up to you. I don't know how much more can be said from either pov. I realize this has been off topic (sorry!), but it's hard to follow a thread when such fundamental differences are glossed over and taken as fact.
I don't see where this post addresses anything different. I'm not denying that Muslims think Islam is a continuation. That has been established. I was speaking of the non-Muslim pov.
Muslims believe it is because the previous versions were corrupted. Got it. That doesn't change the fact that those differences are fundamental and faith changing differences that make Islam a totally different religion than the previous Abrahamic religions. Islam has always been thought of by Christians and secular alike as originating with the teachings of Muhammed.
Up to you. I don't know how much more can be said from either pov. I realize this has been off topic (sorry!), but it's hard to follow a thread when such fundamental differences are glossed over and taken as fact.
Well unless your willing to get into it I probably won't.
"If a PIMP justifies his/her actions by interpreting the orders of God in such a way that it seems pimping is allowable then this is Shirk, because they have placed their nufs and reasoning above the law of God."
I am not talking about disobedience to the law, because to the criminal in his heart the law is true but the act is wrong, and through weakness it is done anyway.
Likewise, the one who says he does not pray he is sinful, but if he claims that we do not have to pray then he is committing kufr of the command to pray.
I have tried to base this on those people who obey the scripture knowing that it was changed by man. Likewise, if a person changes the meaning of scripture to suit his own requirements ... is this not a minor form of shirk? The one who pimps knowing it is wrong is sinful ... the one who pimps thinking it permissible is not a Muslim ... in the sense of being a mutawahhid.
Bhai jaan, ab jaake deemag mein enter huan:D . I believe that, someone who knows it and believes in it but does not act upon it is ok because anyone will feel guilt coz s/he believes in it and can repent later but the one who rejects the verses of Allaah is bang on committing kufr.
Take care bro and Peace, like always i am here for knowledge and with people like you around will never miss a line.
(a) This is exactly what the Quran tells us about the Jews or Christians. They changed their scriptures to suit their needs.
One small correction: The Quran does not say the Christian scriptures were changed, but only the Jewish part. Please give me the quote where the Quran state the Christian scriptures were changed.
One small correction: The Quran does not say the Christian scriptures were changed, but only the Jewish part. Please give me the quote where the Quran state the Christian scriptures were changed.
Hey! Nice to hear from you. Its implicit Jesus PBUH was a jew. The Quran (as you and I have discussed in the past) refutes the Christian belief about Jesus PBUH being God or Son of God and this is established per say in the Bible according to Christian belief. So if that does not implicitly tell you that the scripture is stating something otherwise than what it should have been according to muslim belief then I don't know what else I would call it other than change.
The concept of Jesus as son of God is as integral to Christian ideology as is the finality of Muhammed's prophethood is in Islam. To say these diametrically opposed beliefs represent a continuation is beyond logic.
One does not have to be Muslim to assert theunity or oneness of God. Islam (according to the definitions of non-Muslim scholars) is the last of the monotheistic faiths, so it is ironic that their followers claim to be the only ones to be practicing monotheism.
This is exactly what I am trying to say…One may openly say He believes in the Oneness of Allah….Others may not say it openly, but believe that there is One Creator. He may call himself whichever faith he wants to, but the rest of the people will judge him as openly he has not said the exact words they want to hear.
Only the Creator knows what is in out hearts and our intentions. So I cannot judge anyone …nor should anyone judge me. If by believing in One God you call me muslim…that’s great so be it…I will proudly accept it…but if on the other hand I do not reveal my intention that there is One God…and you label me Kafir/Zalim…well that’s quite OK too and I will accept that.
Hypnotix… The “Will” of Allah in my simple mind is universal to ALL his creation whatever they have chosen to call themselves….applicable to animal and plant-life…the skies and the earth and the universe. Therefore no one religion or belief should be able to lay claim to “submission to His Will"
Hey! Nice to hear from you. Its implicit Jesus PBUH was a jew. The Quran (as you and I have discussed in the past) refutes the Christian belief about Jesus PBUH being God or Son of God and this is established per say in the Bible according to Christian belief. So if that does not implicitly tell you that the scripture is stating something otherwise than what it should have been according to muslim belief then I don't know what else I would call it other than change.
Your statement was "the Quran tells us about the .... Christians. They changed their scriptures to suit their needs". The Quran does not state this. The Quran mentions that the Old Testament was corrupted but does not refer to the New Testament at all!
You can't have it all your way. I remember we discussed the Christian belief that Jesus is God and a number of Muslim's (you included) just did not want to accept that it can be proven from the New Testament that Jesus is God. If this is the case (that the New Testament does not state that Jesus is God), then your argument as per above is based on a wrong assumption, and therefor invalid.
If you do now accept that the New Testament DOES prove/state that Jesus is God, your argument still is invalid because nowhere in the Quran did the Prophet Muhammad stated that the New Testament was corrupted.
In short: the Prophet Muhammad did not state in the Quran that the New Testament is corrupted because he actually did not know anything of the New Testament!
Your statement was "the Quran tells us about the .... Christians. They changed their scriptures to suit their needs". The Quran does not state this. The Quran mentions that the Old Testament was corrupted but does not refer to the New Testament at all!
I suggest you read verses 002:067 - 002:079.
You can't have it all your way. I remember we discussed the Christian belief that Jesus is God and a number of Muslim's (you included) just did not want to accept that it can be proven from the New Testament that Jesus is God. If this is the case (that the New Testament does not state that Jesus is God), then your argument as per above is based on a wrong assumption, and therefor invalid.
If you do now accept that the New Testament DOES prove/state that Jesus is God, your argument still is invalid because nowhere in the Quran did the Prophet Muhammad stated that the New Testament was corrupted.
Actually we discussed the inconsistencies, which is the reason we say in some places it appears the way you say it and in some places there were verses to oppose that POV. And in some places where we you had stated that it can be proven I recall we had discussed it as being metaphorical. Anyway lets not get in the "I said and you said" type of discussion.
As for the Quran, it also states that the Jews and Christians followed the same scripture and yet took different positions to one another. Verse 002:113. Regardless of Old Testament and New Testament, they are both integral parts of Christian faith, correct. I don't think you can be selective about being New Testament only and not accepting the Old Testament. Based on this if it can be proven from either New or Old Testament then the argument holds true becauase you are supposed to believe in both Testaments. Correct me if I am wrong but I think the Jews would not accept the New Testament.
In short: the Prophet Muhammad did not state in the Quran that the New Testament is corrupted because he actually did not know anything of the New Testament!
Hey your still stuck in that state of mind that Prophet Muhammad SAW is the author of the Quran. I thought you had come out of it. In Quran, which you probably know it refers to either People of the book, Jews or Christians, it does not diffrentiate by Old Testament or New Testament but rather by scripture given to which prophet.