Ammunition dump blast in Baghdad / US soldiers stoned by Iraqi protestors (merged)

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
21

Do you really think that the US wants to have all of these munitions around? It was the same in Afghanistan. Piles and Piles and Piles of weapons caches hidden alll over the country. Ak-47's and RPG's. The US didn't make those!

In your heart of hearts do you really think that the US wanted, in any way, to put civilians at risk? Do you ever think about the idiots who fired the weapons into the compound?

Here is the way you guys think:

Let's not crucify the guy who pulled the trigger. Let's sue the guy who financed the metal maker who sold the steel to the gunmaker who sold the gun to a gun store who sold the gun to the homeowner whose gun was stolen by drug addicts in a home robbery who then robbed a convenient store and shot the clerk.

Better yet, let's make the US government responsible because they gave a tax credit to the financier who loaned money to the metal maker who....

When you come down to it, the guy who fired the flare into a compund full of munitions is the murderer. But the people in the street didn't know that. They just knew that people died.

22

Hey OG..when the US can detain muslimg children as young as 13 years old, anything is expected. You guys only understand when the American soldiers are blown to pieces, just like what happened in Afghanistan yesterday; exactly the same way how the Iraqi civilians got killed..

23

Outlaw,

I cannot follow your logic here.

American soldiers got ambushed in Afghanistan. That is a conflict. Every soldier in Afghanistan knows and understands he is at risk.

Every soldier in Iraq knows he is at risk.

But the US has been in Baghdad, what, 2 weeks?

And the 13 year old children in Guantanamo? Yeah, sure we just snatched a few out of some fundamentalist madrassa for the the fun of it and shipped them off to Cuba. I fail to see how that relates to some explosion at an arms cache in Iraq.

Perhaps you are trying to spin this "The US is morally bankrupt and we blame them for everything" web? Well I have been around here long enough that I don't buy it. In almost every single thread around here I see some reason to blame the US for every problem they encounter. US actions are hyperanylized. But the willness to overlook the guys who accumulated the stockpile of weapons, allowed hideous dictators, and fired the flares to explode weapons and kill civilians is just astounding.

Perhaps it is the great copout. If we can blame the US for everything, perhaps we don't have to look in the mirror.

Will the people of Iraq be better off with Saddam? Absolutely, if they choose to be. Will it happen instantly? No. Will they have to work for it? Yes. Will it be difficult and dangerous? Yes.

American expression. You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink!

24

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *
Just a wild guess... I bet you are of the belief that if the US finds WMD in Iraq they must have been planted by US, right?
It's funny how the inconsistency in the beilef of conspiracy theories around here is directly related to the amount of blame that is placed on the US for any such theory.
[/QUOTE]

Inconsistency, hmmmmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I remember that Powell showed detailed pictures in the UN "pinpointing" where the WMD were. What happened to those places. You can lie only for so long.

The problem is not the munitions but the fact that they were dumped by YOUR trigger happy invaders in a residential area. FACT: they were put there by your trigger happy invaders not Iraqis despite the fact that the residents of the area objected and pleaded with the invaders to move them away. Why did they do that, maybe because they dont value Iraqi lives that much or life in general anyway. Lets not forget their moto is shoot and kill first and aks questions later.

25

Morally bankrupt! Well stated. When hundreds upon hundreds Muslim civilians can be killed without any acknowledgement of responsibility; when brazen lies such as "the bombs which fell on x neighborhood was not ours but their own" are told to the public, what else proof do you need regarding your trepidation for the lives of Muslims. Whether you buy it or not, it will not change the facts, that the war in Iraq has unleashed tremendous amount of sufferings on the Iraqi people. It still remains to be seen how the US troops will cope with the long-term repulsion now engrained. They shall pay in the same manner; the way they have disregarded the value of human lives in Iraq.

26

Amazing, and it proves my point precisely.

Neither of the two responses above mention that the munitions were exploded by flares shot into the compound, by Iraqi's, and probably with the intent of causing an incident, or at least trying to kill Americans.

Did this part of the incident escape your thinking? Or just not fit your agenda?

27

No it didn't. When thousands of residents gathered to protest against the US after the explosion; there ought to be some truth behind this matter that the US has some sort of connection with the ammunition dump kept near the civilian populated areas.

Not to worry, there are clear signs that the US is deemed as an oppressor; strengthening the security of Israel and there to suck-up Iraqi oil. Therefore, there have been mass rallies and denunciation of the US presence on Arab land.

28

Here is the quote from the Guardian, a famously left leaning paper:

US forces denied that they had been detonating the ammunition at the camp, which they took over when Iraqi troops were forced out. They have been using it to store ammunition collected from other parts of Baghdad, and were intending to destroy it.

Colonel John Peabody of the US 3rd Infantry Division said that since the army took control of the base from the US Marines, there had been no more ammunition exploded.

Up to 10 people had attacked the base with automatic weapons early yesterday morning and had fired incendiary devices, which had started the series of explosions, said Col Peabody. One soldier was injured.

“It’s clear that whoever did this was someone who knew what he was doing – causing injuries to innocent civilians,” said Col Peabody.

The colonel said that the Iraqi forces had established the base and that none of the ammunition kept there had been American. He said it had been considered too dangerous too move.
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=400766

Thousands of residents only know somebody was killed. They do not know the reason or the facts. Where do you think the Ammo came from?
Hundreds of Mosques and schools in Baghdad?

I still have not heard you acknowledge that Saddam loyalist may have intentionally casued the explosions. This is just one more case where Muslim on Muslim violence is ignored or overlooked, particularly where one can blame someone else.

29

Proves my point too. You very conveniently forgot to explain why your trigger happy invaders are dumping ammo near residential areas. Lets not get away from facts:

Fact1: Ammo was kept near to residential areas, true or false.

Fact2: The residents were pleading with the invaders to move them away, true or false.

BTW both these facts were given by impeachable sources like BBC, CNN etc. The media which always speaks the truth.

As to the flares we have no independent confirmation except for the word of the invaders. The same invaders who told us that they were in the centre of Basra on the second day of the invasion and Umm Qasr was theirs before a shot was fired.

Get your facts right.

30

Chosen1,

Facts--

Fact1: Ammo was kept near to residential areas, true or false.

Some of the munitions were gathered from hundreds of locations in Baghdad, all of which were in residential areas. (gosh, who put them there?) The site in question was a walled military compound on the OUTSKIRTs of town. Look at a map.

Large quantities of the weapons were found at this site. Many of the missles were described as "big as trucks" (look at the size of the craters in the photos). Driving these missles out through residential neighborhoods would expose more civilians to risk.

Fact2: The residents were pleading with the invaders to move them away, true or false.

The residents may not realize that transporting old and unreliable ordinance out through residential areas would expose many more civilians to danger if the convoys were attacked, or a spontaneous explosion occured. The third infantry took over this site from the Marines a few days ago. The Marines had been exploding the munitons in deep holes (the recommended way of disposal) up to three times per day.

My facts are fine thank you.

31

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
Chosen1,

Facts--

Fact1: Ammo was kept near to residential areas, true or false.

Some of the munitions were gathered from hundreds of locations in Baghdad, all of which were in residential areas. (gosh, who put them there?) The site in question was a walled military compound on the OUTSKIRTs of town. Look at a map.

Large quantities of the weapons were found at this site. Many of the missles were described as "big as trucks" (look at the size of the craters in the photos). Driving these missles out through residential neighborhoods would expose more civilians to risk.

Fact2: The residents were pleading with the invaders to move them away, true or false.

The residents may not realize that transporting old and unreliable ordinance out through residential areas would expose many more civilians to danger if the convoys were attacked, or a spontaneous explosion occured. The third infantry took over this site from the Marines a few days ago. The Marines had been exploding the munitons in deep holes (the recommended way of disposal) up to three times per day.

My facts are fine thank you.
[/QUOTE]

The ammo was being brought there from other sites as well. (Gosh it didnt explode when the Iraqis were incharge, only exploded when the invaders took over. Oh yes forgot the lame excuse that a flare was fired, which hasn't been verified by any independent sources, we only have US invaders word for it). Surely the world's most sophisticated invaders should have known the risks, or maybe as I stated previously Iraqi lives are not important.

One question still remains unanswered, it was an ammo dumping ground, surely must be heavily guarded. Surprisingly none of the invaders died while civilian casualities were very heavy. Strange but true.!!!!!

32

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Ohioguy:
Perhaps you should consider the following:
[/QUOTE]

You mean the following fact:-

U.S. Special Forces troops have taken up residence in five schools in this little town on the northwest edge of Irbil, in Kurdish-controlled northern Iraq.

Explain that please, because as the Iraqi residents state:-

"Isn't this what the Americans blame Saddam Hussein for doing?

33

Who are now being machine gunned by the US occupation soldiers for daring to protest against the American occupation.

Yankee Go Home - US troops kill upto 10 Iraqi protestors in Mosul](http://www.gupistan.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=100787)

34

Malik don’t knock it, I bet it’s the longest any of the GI’s have been in a school.

35

Excellent question. How come none of the US occupation soldiers who are guarding and storing ammunition there, got killed, and only innocent Iraqi civilians did?

P.S. Thap :hehe:

36

Edited-HKP

Here is the AP report. Funny, there were nearly 80 missles at this site, including the infamous, illegal and should-have-been-destroyed Al-Samoud 2 Missles, and RUSSIAN built Frog-2 missles. That explains the size of the craters and the scope of the damage.

The disaster struck at 7:50 a.m. as residents slept or assembled bread and tea for breakfast.

Out of sight of U.S. troops at the depot, someone fired four flares over a wall around an open field where ordnance had been stored, said Sgt. 1st Class Ronald King, a witness.

Americans said some of the tactical weapons had been stored there by Saddam’s regime, which had stashed such items in schools, homes and other populated areas.

The U.S. military had put some of the ordnance there itself, however, collecting abandoned Iraqi caches from around the city for later disposal, King said.

The cache included Russian-made Frog-7s and Iraq’s own Al Samoud 2 - 80 missiles in all, said Col. John Peabody, commanding officer of the U.S. Army’s 11th Engineering Brigade, which had been helping at the site.

The flares hit an ammunition pit, setting fire to wooden ammo crates, King said. In a flash, deadly remnants of Saddam’s regime were pounding homes without warning. Booms rattled windows across the city.

About a mile away, a missile plowed into a dirt lane between two rows of crude two-story homes. Walls crumbled and roofs blew off, demolishing four houses. Inside one, the impact killed a 50-year-old worker, his four teenage children and his 23-year-old daughter-in-law, a new mother.

http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/stories/I/IRAQ_BLASTS?SITE=MIDTF&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

37

Could it be that the ammo destruction exercise went horribly wrong and the blame was qucikly put on the flare gun fired at them. Otherwise why were there no US casualties. Tonnes of ammo goes up and the invaders have no causalties. !!!

38

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Ohioguy:
Malik, typical...
[/QUOTE]

Don't try to run away. Can you answer why:-

U.S. Special Forces troops have taken up residence in five schools in this little town on the northwest edge of Irbil, in Kurdish-controlled northern Iraq.

Just another example of US disregard of Iraqi civilian lives, as in the case of the ammunition explosions?

P.S. As you first mentioned the Saddam regime machine gunning Iraqi protestors, can you tell what you think of American soldiers now doing the same i.e. machine gunning Iraqi protestors?

39

Well, let me see if I can satisfy all of you. Even though explosions at arms caches, and protests regarding that seem very much removed from protests hundreds of miles away, days earlier and in a different incident almost defy a coherent thread.

In Mosul there were a large number of rioters, and a small number of troops. The protestors had also surrounded the Bank building which was still burning days later. Shots had been fired and the marines believed they were being shot at. End of story. This kind of thing may persist during a period of chaos. 21 days of warfare is very different from 25 years of tyranny. Iraqi's had been advocating a stop to looting and rioting as their first priority.

Perhaps there is this perception that miracles can happen overnight. Perhaps we believe that freedom after years of dictatorial regimes will be easy.
Perhaps the expectation that instantly a new government will pop up, and things will be fine is reasonable to you.

You may not believe that Democracy is possible in a Muslim country. Perhaps you are right. A post-war Iraq will be messy and chaotic, get used to it. But hundreds of times on these boards I have heard Muslim people want better leadership. The Kurdish culture that has grown under the US protections in the North is the model of how Iraq should look a few years from now. It is a dynamic, vibrant open culture that, after they got done fighting with themselves, is really quite remarkable. That is my wish for the Iraqi people.

The expectation of instant order and instant success is patently unreasonable. The risks in Iraq are short term. The opportunities are long term. Success in Iraq will not be measured on the basis of one incident or another. It will be measure on whether many future generations grow up with freedom and dignity, or under the heel of another Arab dictator.

40

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Ohioguy:
Well, let me see if I can satisfy all of you.
[/QUOTE]

Ok first things first. Can you answer why:-

**U.S. Special Forces troops have taken up residence in five schools in this little town on the northwest **

After you answer this question, maybe then you can try explaining how come none of the US occupation soldiers who are guarding and storing ammunition at the ammunition depot , got killed, and only innocent Iraqi civilians did?