America and the jews

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
1

The question which is often asked is why is America such a staunch supporter of Israel, even in the face of such blantant human rights violations which the state of Israel commits on a regular basis.

Now, I hate to take my news from talk show radio, but one of them (a strict right wing conservative) mentioned an interesting point that during the war of independence against the British army, the Americans were slowly being defeated and they had to retreat to re-group. And there were a few jewish families in the area who provided the American army with food, shelter and other help. Later on the Britishers were defeated and the rest is history. His point was that historically America is a judai-christian state with strong roots both in Christianity and Judaism. And that is why, to this date, American government feels obligated to protect and defend the jewish state of Israel.

Obviously there are other factors too. Jewish lobbist groups, campaign funds for US politicians and many politicians in US who are, infact jews… but the historical angle was something new to me. So I searched the internet to verify the authenticity of such claims and here is what I found when I googled “jews christians america founding fathers”
One link

GEORGE WASHINGTON: They (the Jews) work more effectively against us, than the enemy’s armies. They are a hundred times more dangerous to our liberties and the great cause we are engaged in… It is much to be lamented that each state, long ago, has not hunted them down as pest to society and the greatest enemies we have to the happiness of America. (From The Maxims of George Washington by A. A. Appleton & Co.)

BENJAMIN FRANKLIN: I fully agree with General Washington, that we must protect this young nation from an insidious influence and impenetration. The menace, gentlemen, is the Jews.

In whatever country Jews have settled in any great number, they have lowered its moral tone; depreciated its commercial integrity; have segregated themselves and have not been assimilated; have sneered at and tried to undermine the Christian religion upon which that nation is founded, by objecting to its restrictions; have built up a state within the state; and when opposed have tried to strangle that country to death financially, as in the case of Spain and Portugal.

For over 1,700 years, the Jews have been bewailing their sad fate in that they have been exiled from their homeland, as they call Palestine. But gentlemen, did the world give it to them in fee simple, they would at once find some reason for not returning. Why? Because they are vampires, and vampires do not live on vampires. They cannot live only among themselves. They must subsist on Christians and other people not of their race.

Jews, gentlemen, are Asiatics, let them be born where they will nor how many generations they are away from Asia, they will never be otherwise. Their ideas do not conform to an American’s, and will not even thou they live among us ten generations. A leopard cannot change its spots. Jews are Asiatics, are a menace to this country if permitted entrance, and should be excluded by this Constitutional Convention. (This statement was recorded in the diary of Charles Cotesworth Pinckney, a delegate from South Carolina.)

THOMAS JEFFERSON: Dispersed as the Jews are, they still form one nation, foreign to the land they live in. (From ‘THE AMERICANS’ by D. Boorstin)
Anyone else has any insight on the historical ties between christians and jews in America?

2

Odd that Jewish help during the Revolution (that few policymakers or voters know about and is still controversial) would give their modern state near unconditional support, while much more significant French help earns them disdain?

I’ve never heard too much about Jews in the Revolution. From what I know, Jewish participation was primarily the work of individuals that happened to be Jewish. I’m sure there were broad (relative) movements where a religious group/synagogue would preach in favor of freedom, that sort of thing was common back then (explaining politics through religion). But what I know for sure is that Jews weren’t held in too high a regard back then. I can’t say if those passages you found above are legit, I’ve never seen those, but they’re not too far from the rest of the writing coming from that time. I would consider it highly doubtful that Judaism was deliberately put into the original planning for the American structure for the benefit of contemporary Jews. Anything that might appear to be so is probably the work of “good Christians” who would consider Christianity rooted in Judaism (just as Muslims consider both “people of the Book”) but didn’t necessarily value Jews as much as Christians personally.

Keep in mind that what I said above is what I know of the time, not my opinion of the world today, and may not be accurate.

I did a search on “american revolution” jewish](Google Search) and came up with this:

I followed up on “Haym Solomon”](Google Search) and got this, which doesn’t mention him working with a wider Jewish network.. but that’s just one source.

Whatever the history, I don’t see how it’s relevant to modern politics.

3

spoon,

Thanks for the response and the links. They are helpful. Only from an educational view point, ofcourse. So presumably, there were some high profile jews who did help the cause of American revolution. It surprises me then, that some very hard hitting statements are attributed to the founding fathers against the jews.

4

I just looked into those quotes you found (they sounded fishy) and pulled up this.. it disproves each one.
It was a pain finding that, too, through all the anti-semite crap (and these sites did earn that title).

5

Well to judge whether America's founding fathers were a bunch of bigots and anti-semites, one just has to look at their actual record towards other minorities. It is a fact that they drew/signed up to the 'US Declaration of Independence' which pointedly referred to Native (Indian) American's as 'merciless savages'. Also, of no dispute is the fact that some of these founding fathers owned African (negro) slaves themselves, and that it was some 87 years after they declared independence from the Brits that slavery was finally abolished.

Their words and deeds clearly demonstrate that the founding fathers were what we might today call 'white supremacists', who in actual fact fought for the freedom of the White Anglo-Saxon Protestants (WASPS). So it does not suprise me that they would have similar despicable views towards Jews, as they did towards Native and African inhabitants of the United States at the time.

6

I agree to some extent with Spoon that any "help" by Jews in founding days must be on "individual" level, not "religiously" backed, thus to say that "we owe it to them" is just another excuse to award them with the tax payer money. The right-wing radio talk shows like "Michael Savage" are nothing but crap, they are more like Christian channel who either have been brainwashed themselves or are brainwashing other Christians to support Jews in Israel for "the second coming".

7

so just like anti semitism cooled down in US, hopefully the anti muslim sentiments held by almosty half the population should cool down in the coming years, which is good news for our future generations.

8

Guys I am posting a long article that someone once emailed me some 3 or 4 years ago. Too bad, the link is not working now, but google search on the keywords mentioned in the article may provide some sources. I have not read the whole article, but skimmed through it.

NOTE FROM MODERATOR - All articles posted must include a working URL Link, otherwise they will be removed. Instead of cutting and pasting very long articles, please only paste the relevant parts of the article and then provide the link to the whole article.

9

any of these stories authentic? i mean i can find tons of links that british royal family is behind US govt and is in drug trade..its that one clowns party i cant even remmeber the name..lyndon larouche..but just because one can find some link for info does not make it fact or does not exclude the spin on it or inaccuracies. there are plenty of publications and sites which have inaccuracies about islam and pakistan, just posting them would not make them complete and spinless fact.

10

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
any of these stories authentic? i mean i can find tons of links that british royal family is behind US govt and is in drug trade..its that one clowns party i cant even remmeber the name..lyndon larouche..but just because one can find some link for info does not make it fact or does not exclude the spin on it or inaccuracies. there are plenty of publications and sites which have inaccuracies about islam and pakistan, just posting them would not make them complete and spinless fact.
[/QUOTE]

I was about to mention that, but thanks you did that. I don't know how accurate these stories are... may be others can confirm how accurate these are, that's why I am sharing this article... and I agree with you what you said above.

11

Thanks to all those who responded. And also thanks to those who submitted their views by sending PM. I appreciate your taking the time. The purpose of the thread was not to push some anti-semitic agenda, but to get a better understanding of the historical context. George Washington's letters (the link for which was sent by a friendly guppie) go a long way to clarify things.

It seems some of the stuff from a website in my first post, seems questionable, at best.

Ofcourse, the relationship between US and jews is more complicated than a fwe jewish farmers feeding the revolutionary army two hundred years ago. There are many current facets to it, and that, I believe, is a topic which has been discussed here ad nausium.

12

Regardless of the legitimacy of the quotes, most people who know a little 20th century American history will not dispute that we had our own good dose of anti-Semitism. It wasn't just black Americans who were excluded from most private clubs. One of the reasons that Jewish Americans were at the forefront of the civil rights movement was their own history of discrimination in America.

It may surprise some quota and Affirmative Action supporters to learn that quotas were first imposed in many American institutions of higher learning to keep the Jews out. Too many of them were being admitted based upon achievement and merit and the quotas were used to limit the number of slots they could fill.

13

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by myvoice: *
Regardless of the legitimacy of the quotes, most people who know a little 20th century American history will not dispute that we had our own good dose of anti-Semitism. It wasn't just black Americans who were excluded from most private clubs. One of the reasons that Jewish Americans were at the forefront of the civil rights movement was their own history of discrimination in America.

It may surprise some quota and Affirmative Action supporters to learn that quotas were first imposed in many American institutions of higher learning to keep the Jews out. Too many of them were being admitted based upon achievement and merit and the quotas were used to limit the number of slots they could fill.
[/QUOTE]

I must have grown up in a different America that you did. I have always believed that affirmative action often granted opprotunity to minorities that were subject to prejudice in the case of jobs, education and housing not to limit minority people but to assist toward equal opportunity.

If I'm wrong about that. Then why is it so many minorities exist in the U.S. and why is it that minority peoples emmigrate to the U.S.?

14

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by AvgAmericanGirl: *
I must have grown up in a different America that you did. I have always believed that affirmative action often granted opprotunity to minorities that were subject to prejudice in the case of jobs, education and housing not to limit minority people but to assist toward equal opportunity.
[/QUOTE]
No, he's right.. I wasn't around back then, but *quotas were used to rig application processes in education and employment in favor of whitefolk before affirmative action came around.
[QUOTE]
If I'm wrong about that. Then why is it so many minorities exist in the U.S. and why is it that minority peoples emmigrate to the U.S.?
[/QUOTE]
Because they may not have had all the opportunities for work or schooling here once upon a time, but they had the opportunity to change the system in a way that would allow them those, an opportunity they weren't likely to have where they came from.

15

Maybe so. Were you brought up in North or South America? :slight_smile:

“Affirmative Action” is a name made up to make an idea that was once unpalatable, now palatable. “Affirmative Action” programs in their infancy were nothing more than quotas permitting a supposedly colorblind society to give preferences based upon color. But quotas had a long history before they became “Affirmative Action.” The Jewish immigrants who came to America placed a high level of importance on learning and education. The children of Jewish immigrants did disproportionately well in school when compared to white christians. As a result, they were admitted to universities based upon merit in percentages much in excess of their percentage of overall population. Therefore, quotas were enacted which established a ** maximum ** number jews who would be admitted. Quotas were used to discriminate against Jews.

The new quotas (Affirmative Action) were deemed justified as a remedy for past discrimination against blacks. They were sold as a way to discriminate in favor of blacks. The theory is that because past discrimination, cultural disadvantage, economic deprivation, etc. resulted in a lower percentage of blacks meeting merit standards for admission to university, a quota would be used to ** increase ** the number of black admissions.

In theory, the preferences given in Affirmative Action programs will one day remedy or eliminate the remaining harmful vestiges of discrimination putting everyone on a level playing field. Once we reach the level playing field, no more Affirmative Action will be required.

But, I didn’t intend a discussion on Affirmative Action. I only mention this part of our history to support the proposition that America went through its own period of anti-semitism and discrimination against Jews. There are still some latent feelings of anti-Semitism in America today. I think that all those people who think we support Israel because Americans love jews so much simply don’t know our history very well. My own feeling is that had Al Gore chosen anyone other than Lieberman as his VP, he would be President today. I have no imperical statistics to prove that and its just a feeling. Thanks Joe. :k:

16

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by myvoice: *
....I think that all those people who think we support Israel because Americans love jews so much simply don't know our history very well....
[/QUOTE]

I don't think anyone considers it a "love for Jews" when US supports Israel blindly, but at least Muslims think that its because of strong Jewish lobby in government, corporations (most support). You might have heard what Mahathir said regarding Jewish ruling and "proxy".

17

For an interesting read, try "Charlie Wilsons' War". He was the Congressman who came up with the funding for the Afghan war against the Soviets. Interesting revelations on his support by the Jewish Lobbies.

However Charlie was also very friendly with Zia, the Egyptians, the Chinese and others. But it is a very real portrayal of American congrssional politics, and how influence is wielded.

18

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Changez_like: *
I don't think anyone considers it a "love for Jews" when US supports Israel blindly, but at least Muslims think that its because of strong Jewish lobby in government, corporations (most support). You might have heard what Mahathir said regarding Jewish ruling and "proxy".
[/QUOTE]

One of the problems is that too many Muslims think that US support for Israel is given "blindly." Starting from this false assumption makes it exceedingly difficult for Muslims opposed to the US level of support for Israel to change American minds and help change the policy.

Frankly, I don't think it would take a whole heck of a lot for some smart thinking, bright Palestinian leader/government with a good plan and good PR representatives to tap into the strong undercurrent of anti-Semitism that has historically been present in the US. True or not, there is a perception among many that the "Jewish influence" is far greater in government, banking and some other places than is warranted by the percentage of the American Jewish population. Believe it or not, a good many Americans are not enthralled with sending $4 billion of taxpayer money to Israel every year or supplying them with $9 billion here and there in loans. A good many Americans, rightly or wrongly, attribute a large portion of our problems around the world to the inability/unwillingness of the Israelis to resolve the Israeli/Palestinian conflict on reasonable terms.

The thing some Muslims and Palestinians don't understand is that notwithstanding these perceptions and America's latent anti-Semitism, we are resigned to giving ongoing support in the face of a terrorist policy undertaken by the Palestinians. It's one cup of Palestinian behavior combined with a couple tablespoons of the Jewish lobby that is the recipe for our policy. OG and I have numerous times suggested specific behaviour changes that we believe would swell support for the Palestinians. Part of my reason for believing our suggested behaviour changes would work is the matters discussed in this thread.

In saying the above, I hope I am not all of a sudden labled an anti-jewish bigot instead of the typical label attributed to me of "zionist pig." All of my observations regarding perceptions of the American people are made in a detached, academic analysis. I don't necessarily share many/most/all of those negative perceptions of undue Jewish influence.

19

So what could the Israeli government and the US admin do to help things along in anything more than paying lip service to an out of date road map?

It strikes me that the on/off switch in this situation is most readily controlled by the US and Israel, a simple shift in policy to dismantle illegal settlements and halt the security wall would be a start. Then let the Palestinians reciprocate.

All under UN auspices of course.

It wouldn't matter how powerful this Jewish lobby is if Israel itself is held accountable for it's actions on the global scene.

I see a shift in this direction as Bush makes concessions in Europe this week. Let's hope things move in the right direction and it's not all fluff and nonesense to secure support for Iraq.

20

I'd be happy to discuss this with you in another thread if you repost your questions. Don't want to change a thread dealing with anti-Semitism in America to a discussion on Israel and Palestine. I know it has been drifting there but now is a good place to stop the drift.