Allies Find No Links Between Iraq, Al Qaeda (merged)

The interesting thing is, that things do change. You are spouting conventional wisdom, which would have been true a decade ago, but holy jihads make strange bedfellows.

The savagely secular Baathist regime has been building a LOT of huge expensive mosques. Sure do wonder why...

and, as OBL said in his speech, what he least wants is to have a bunch of infidels in one of the most important Muslim cities. Certainly does provide a lot of motivation to work together with Saddam. I wonder what he received to motivate him to provide this timely exortation helping Saddam, whom he was prepared to fight a decade ago. Funny he does not mention Saddam's murder of ethnic Iraqi's, or provide any insight as to how Arabs should take care of Saddam. His only aim was that of killing Christians and Jews, and railing against moderate states (even Pakistan) who do not buy into his extreme rhetoric.

Now was I lying when I said that Osama hated Saddam, and wanted to raise an army to fight him to liberate Kuwait? No.

Here’s some more for you to digest:-

But according to military and intelligence sources, this puts Wolfowitz at odds with much of the military hierarchy, a number of whom dispute the notion of an alliance between Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. “Keep in mind that bin Laden wanted a jihad against Saddam for invading Kuwait,” says on intelligence analyst. “He hates Saddam.” Adds the Pentagon consultant: "It makes no sense to do anything like expand this.](http://www.prospect.org/print-friendly/print/V12/19/vest-j.html)

Now for you claims to be even taken seriously you have to first provide the proof that there are any links between Osama and Saddam, in light of the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. For that you have to answer the question - name me a list of countries that have openly come out and supported US claims about Al Qaida links to Saddam?

Choose your words carefully from now on…:slight_smile:

Your article is dated 2001. But then again, you will post anything that agrees with your position.

Saddam and OBL do not have to like each other to cooperate. By virtue of a common enemy they would have a motivation to trade toxic chemicals for information. Certainly it would be easy for a pro-OBL Islamist to count tanks going into the Kuwait desert. I am not implying that they are having sleep over parties like Michael Jackson, but a linkage could be mutually beneficial.

I have an idea, let's let my favorite inspectors, the 3rd Infantry do a little inspecting like they did in Afghanistan. Funny how it is so much easier to get the real story when you have access to all those caves.

Do they not back up my claim (which you called a lie) about Osama’s long held hatred of Saddam, and his wish to liberate Kuwait with his won force back in 1990/91? Yes. :slight_smile:

If that article is to date for you, then I suggest you read ALL the article posted in this thread, namely:-

Read the original article posted in this thread carefully - Allies Find No Links Between Iraq, Al Qaeda

Then read the article from the BBC - Wanted: an Iraqi link to al-Qaeda](BBC NEWS | Middle East | Wanted: an Iraqi link to al-Qaeda)

Then read the article from the New York Times - Split at C.I.A. and F.B.I. on Iraqi Ties to Al Qaeda

Then this - No proof of Iraq, al-Qaeda links: analysts](No proof of Iraq, al-Qaeda links: analysts)

And this - **False trails that lead to the al-Qaeda ‘links’ **](The Observer)

And I am still waiting on you to provide a list of countries that have openly come out and supported US claims about Al Qaida links to Saddam?

Allies must be blind US can see a clear link between the two…

Al-Qaida < -----> IraQ

P.S: Sorry PA had to steal your innovation it wasn’t copyright anyway.. :hehe:

"Do they not back up my claim"

Yes all of the OLD articles back up your claim. All of the people who have no access to any intelligence whatsoever are echoing yesterday's views.

In your insistance that you are correct, you may be turning a blind eye to new information and new possibilities to consider. Over the course of history terroists of all ilks do whatever they have to to adapt and survive. What do you expect, that if Saddam had given OBL chemical or biological weapons that it would be posted on some web site? OBL is not espousing any sympathy for Saddam. But he may justify his actions on behalf of Iraq believing that he can support the Iraqi soldiers' fight against the US while pretending that his support will not help Saddam.

You were saying the same thing 18 months ago. "Where is the proof OBL was involved in the WTC." You were so convinced that you were right, and you were wrong, wrong, wrong.

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Nadia_H: *
*

In light of the above, therefore, how does the US rationally make the argument that an attack against Iraq is a necessity? Is the American public really this gullible to fall for these gross distortions of the truth? Even with the aid of the US, Iraq wasn't able to inflict a decisive defeat against Iran; what to say of its military capabilities now after 12 years of punitive sanctions? The last time i checked, threatening the sovereignty of another country was only allowed if a country was acting in self-defence; Iraq does not pose a threat to anyone let alone to anyone as militarily powerful as the US. Article 73 of the UN Charter explicitly states that all member states have an obligation to "further international peace and security"; viewed from this perspective of international law, it would seem as though the US is determined to draw uncomfortable parallels between itself and other so-called "rogue states". International laws don't just apply for the weak; they should apply to everyone in an equal measure.
[/QUOTE]

Answering your questions in order.
1. Oil. My not be what the Gov says publicly but that is the truth.
2. I am the typical American. White and male and a Veteran and I don't fall for the distortions of truth.
3. And considering we F@&*ed them up in the early 1990's their Military presence has been decreased. They really pose no threat to the US. But our oil prices sure gettin' high.
4. This will be( and I say "will be" because I believe that our cowboy President is dead set for war) the first time that America has so blatantly made a pre-emptive strike against another country. I am ashamed to say that I actually voted for this man. I agree with you. The law should apply to all countries. The US Government has forgotten that it is part of something much bigger than just its borders. And its role as a world leader requires that it handle it's affairs with more care and consideration than it is presently doing. Just know that not all Americans are represented by the actions of our government. Don't hate the American, hate their Government. That is one of the freedoms that americans can appreciate.

Simply because Osama declares his support for Iraq does not mean that the two have ever had or will have real connections. Osama is an opportunist. He sees something that is widely interpreted as Western aggression against Islam and he would be stupid to not capitalize on that sentiment. It has still yet to be proven that the two have ties. We are giving Osama the support he needs, not Iraq. Al Qaeda does not need financial or state support, all they need is ideological support. It is this that we have given them fully, even if not intended.

**

Agreed. Well-stated, Spoon :k:

Don’t presume - just prove it. I have without a doubt proven my earlier assertions of Osama’s hatred of Saddam going back to the early 1990’s. I and others have shown in this thread no country in the world really believes the American government claims, and that even the CIA and MI6 don’t take these allegations seriously. And if you want more proof as to what people from all backgrounds think of such claims just visit this thread:-

http://www.gupistan.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=91627

Now to prove what you only presume, you have to provide a list of countries that have openly come out and supported US claims about Al Qaida links to Saddam?

Thank you. :slight_smile:

Dear The Priest,

Sorry, in my eagerness to reply to Spoon, i am not certain how i missed your post directed to myself. i sincerely apologize :flower1: Sorry.

Thank you for answering my questions so well. Regarding your comments above - the Iraq issue has taught me never to make the absurd folly of judging a people by its government, so please never think for an instant that i would judge all Americans just by the actions of their administration. You voted for Bush II, but look at how you perceive of his admin’s. policies today - i would say that it takes a certain amount of courage and honesty to admit all that. i for one truly respect your honesty. :k: Thank you. You refer to yourself as a “typical American”; i would wish that your opinions regarding the foreign policies of your country were reflective of more individuals in your country. If you visit Muslim countries such as Iraq, i think you will still find that the ‘ordinary’ people harbour little ill-will towards the American people; it is just the govt. whose policies they are unable to fathom and view with deep suspicion, if not hatred. A country’s people come in all manners of diversity; to judge them by the same standard as their government would be irrational.
Many many thanks for sharing your thoughts, The Priest. :flower1:

Malik, the following article from Independent shows how the US and UK have used plagerism and falsely drawn conclusion from their intel agencies to make their case for war and link Iraq and Al Qaeda:

**MI6 and CIA: the new enemy within **

By Paul Lashmar and Raymond Whitaker
09 February 2003

Tony Blair and George Bush are encountering an unexpected obstacle in their campaign for war against Iraq – their own intelligence agencies.

Britain and America’s spies believe that they are being politicised: that the intelligence they provide is being selectively applied to lead to the opposite conclusion from the one they have drawn, which is that Iraq is much less of a threat than their political masters claim. Worse, when the intelligence agencies fail to do the job, the politicians will not stop at plagiarism to make their case, even “tweaking” the plagiarised material to ensure a better fit.

“You cannot just cherry-pick evidence that suits your case and ignore the rest. It is a cardinal rule of intelligence,” said one aggrieved officer. “Yet that is what the PM is doing.” Not since Harold Wilson has a Prime Minister been so unpopular with his top spies.

The mounting tension is mirrored in Washington. “We’ve gone from a zero position, where presidents refused to cite detailed intel as a source, to the point now where partisan material is being officially attributed to these agencies,” said one US intelligence source.

Mr Blair is facing an unprecedented, if covert, rebellion by his top spies, who last week used the politicians’ own weapon – the strategic leak – against him. The BBC received a Defence Intelligence Staff (DIS) document which showed that British intelligence believes there are no current links between the Iraqi regime and the al-Qa’ida network. The classified document, written last month, said there had been contact between the two in the past, but it assessed that any fledgling relationship foundered due to mistrust and incompatible ideologies.

That conclusion contradicted one of the main charges laid against Saddam Hussein by the United States and Britain, most notably in Wednesday’s speech by the Secretary of State, Colin Powell, to the UN Security Council – that he has cultivated contacts with the group blamed for the 11 September attacks.

Such a leak of up-to-date and sensitive material reveals the depth of anger within Britain’s spy community over the misuse of intelligence by Downing Street. “A DIS document like this is highly secret. Whoever leaked it must have been quite senior and had unofficial approval from within the highest levels of British intelligence,” said one insider. In response the Foreign Secretary, Jack Straw, tried to play down the importance of the DIS, which he repeatedly called the Defence Intelligence Services.

No sooner had that embarrassment passed, however, than it emerged that large chunks of the Government’s latest dossier on Iraq, which claimed to draw on “intelligence material”, were taken from published academic articles, some of them several years old. It was this recycled material that Mr Powell held up in front of a worldwide television audience, saying: “I would call my colleagues’ attention to the fine paper that the United Kingdom distributed … which describes in exquisite detail Iraqi deception activities.”

Now Glen Rangwala, the Cambridge University analyst who blew the whistle on the original plagiarism, has pointed out the deception did not end there. He showed that the young Downing Street team, led by Alison Blackshaw, Alastair Campbell’s personal assistant, which put the document together had “hardened” the language in several places (see box).

How selectively the work of the intelligence agencies is being used on both sides of the Atlantic is shown by a revealing clash between Senator Bob Graham and the Bush administration’s top intelligence advisers. Mr Graham, a Democrat, is chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee. Last July, baffled by the apparently contradictory assessments on Iraq by America’s 13 different intelligence agencies, he asked for a report to be drawn up by the CIA that estimated the likelihood of Saddam Hussein using weapons of mass destruction.

The CIA procrastinated, but finally produced a report after Senator Graham threatened to accuse them of obstruction. The conclusions were so significant that he immediately asked for it to be declassified. The CIA concluded that the likelihood of Saddam Hussein using such weapons was “very low” for the “foreseeable future”. The only circumstances in which Iraq would be more likely to use chemical weapons or encourage terrorist attacks would be if it was attacked.

After more arguments the CIA partly declassified the report. Senator Graham noted that the parts released were those that made the case for war with Iraq. Those that did not were withheld. He appealed, and the extra material was eventually released. Yet the report has largely been ignored by the US media.

Last week Colin Powell made much of the presence in Iraq of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the man he identified as running an al-Qa’ida network from Baghdad. He drew on information from al-Zarqawi’s captured deputy, but made no mention of another explosive allegation from the same detainee: that Osama bin Laden’s organisation received passports and $1m (£600,000) in cash from a member of the royal family in Qatar. It is well known in US intelligence circles that the CIA director, George Tenet, is angry with the Qatari government’s failure to take action. But the Gulf state would be the main US air operations base in any war on Iraq, and Washington does not want to air the inconvenient facts in public.

The doctored dossier

A British government dossier, “Iraq – its infrastructure of concealment, deception and intimidation”, was largely copied – complete with poor punctuation and grammar – from an article in last September’s Middle East Review of International Affairs and two articles in Jane’s Intelligence Review.

But the Downing Street compilers also rounded up the numbers and inserted stronger language than in the original. In a section on a movement called Fedayeen Saddam, members are, according to the original, “recruited from regions loyal to Saddam”. The Government dossier says they are “press-ganged from regions known to be loyal to Saddam”.

On Fedayeen Saddam’s total membership, the original says 18,000 to 40,000. The dossier says 30,000 to 40,000.

A similar bumping-up of figures occurs with the description of the Directorate of Military Intelligence.

Included among the duties of the secret police, the Mukhabarat, says the original, are “monitoring foreign embassies in Iraq” and “aiding opposition groups in hostile regimes”. The dossier says the duties include “spying on foreign embassies in Iraq” and “supporting terrorist organisations in hostile regimes”.

The plagiarists cannot even copy correctly, confusing two organisations called General Security and Military Security. This means that the dossier says Military Security was created in 1992, then refers to it moving to new headquarters in 1990. The head of Military Security in 1997 is named as Taha al-Ahbabi, when he was actually in charge of General Security.

The BBC received a Defence Intelligence Staff (DIS) document which showed that British intelligence believes there are no current links between the Iraqi regime and the al-Qa'ida network. The classified document, written last month, said there had been contact between the two in the past, but it assessed that any fledgling relationship foundered due to mistrust and incompatible ideologies. That conclusion contradicted one of the main charges laid against Saddam Hussein by the United States and Britain, most notably in Wednesday's speech by the Secretary of State, Colin Powell, to the UN Security Council – that he has cultivated contacts with the group blamed for the 11 September attacks.

Yup, just as I have stated even the UK Intelligence Service, MI6 does not believe the outright lies the US administration is telling over this matter. I think the same holds for the CIA?

Powell using old Osama tape to gather support for war on Iraq didnt garnish him much support or applaud in the international community. Its not happening folks. Bush, himself hasnt used Osama's name since July. Btw, there the heck is he?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by 5Abi: *
Powell using old Osama tape to gather support for war on Iraq didnt garnish him much support or applaud in the international community. Its not happening folks. Bush, himself hasnt used Osama's name since July. Btw, there the heck is he?
[/QUOTE]

Hardly any country bcaked up America's latest claims about Al Qaida, and many found the latest tape rather to conveniant.

Some conclusive proof linking Iraq with al Qaeeda - article is from Australia’s The Age, by Armando Iannucci:

A collection of Colin Powell’s useful facts relating to the proposed actions in the Gulf region.

A: Seven proofs of links between Saddam and al-Qaeda.

  1. On an audiotape, Osama bin Laden calls Iraq a “stinking cesspit of socialist debauchery”. This criticism is much less hostile than the sort of thing he says about America, thus proving al-Qaeda has warm feelings towards Saddam Hussein.

  2. Our surveillance has picked up chatter from al-Qaeda operatives talking about organising a “rendezvous”. “Rendezvous” is a French word, and France has constantly obstructed American attempts to impose regime change in Iraq. So again, we see a clear connection between al-Qaeda and Iraq.

  3. Our spy planes have photographed Saddam’s deputy prime minister being driven in a motorcade of Mercedes cars. Mercedes is a German car, and Germany is in league with France to destroy America, like al-Qaeda. Therefore, etc.

  4. The number plate on one of these cars was A03A0 1A, which, in the rear mirror of the car in front, spells al-Qaeda.

  5. The motorcade was moving in an easterly direction through Baghdad. If you move in an easterly direction through France, you get to Germany.

  6. Saddam is another Hitler. Germany had a Hitler. Again, a direct link with al-Qaeda.

  7. Al-Qaeda operatives have recently been arrested in London. The Prime Minister of London, Tony Blair, then visited France for a meeting with Jacques Chirac. Chirac then visited Bonn to celebrate 40 years of his alliance with Gerhard Schroeder of Germany. Schroeder had a meeting with Putin of Russia, who then received Hans Blix, who went to Baghdad. Again, proof of a direct link.

B: Five fascinating facts about Iraq.

  1. Iraq is slightly more than twice the size of Idaho, occupying an area the equivalent of 500,000 American aircraft carriers.

  2. Iraq has 57 kilometres of coastline. That’s the equivalent of 300,000 Apache attack helicopters stretching 57 kilometres.

  3. Iraq was once part of the Ottoman Empire, a land mass which, if turned into flour, would be enough to feed bread to the children of Iraq for 100 years. But Saddam refuses to do this and instead spends his money on presidential palaces, which, if converted to milk, would be enough to fill all the oil wells of the Middle East for a fortnight. That’s why we have to stop him getting to the wells before he does this.

  4. Iraq has 35,000 square kilometres of irrigated land. That’s the equivalent of 300 million bottles of anthrax end to end. So where are they?

  5. Iraqis consume 27.3 billion kWh of electricity every year, enough to power one Star-Wars style anti-missile system. So where is it, and who’s it pointing at?

C: The United Nations constitution explained once and for all.

  1. The UN has a 15-member Security Council, of which France, Britain, China, Russia and America are permanent members, with veto rights.

  2. The UN Charter allows for the permanent members to use their veto to overrule any majority decision of the council with which they disagree.

  3. This is not applicable in cases where France, China or Russia use their veto in unreasonable cases, “unreasonable” being defined as a veto against any recent council majority decisions supported by Britain or America.

  4. In these cases, the charter will probably allow America or Britain to veto that veto, thus upholding the earlier unvetoed will of the council, unless the council arrives at a majority decision contrary to the wishes of America or Britain, in which case all the permanent members of the council ought to be obliged to veto it, or to veto any attempt to veto the veto.
    ~ ~ ~
    [Armando Iannucci is a columnist with The Daily Telegraph, London]

:hehe: Thanks for that article Nadia.

Once again, nothing new.
The larger tragedy (apart from the lie) is that, the majority of Americans still believe that Iraq and al Qaeda are affiliated in some tangible manner. A sovereign country invaded upon misinformation and an illogical pretext - i wonder how legal that would be in the eyes of international law :konfused:

CIA had doubts on Iraq link to al-Qaida, Suzanne Goldenberg
The Guardian, 10 June 2003

The debunking of the Bush administration’s pre-war certainties on Iraq gathered pace yesterday when it emerged that the CIA knew for months that a connection between Saddam Hussein and al-Qaida was highly unlikely.

As President George Bush was forced for the second time in days to defend the decision to go to war, a new set of leaks from CIA officials suggested a tendency in the White House to suppress or ignore intelligence findings which did not shore up the case for war.

Iraq ‘had no links to al-Qaeda’, BBC, 27 June 2003

A United Nations committee says it has found no evidence of a connection between Iraq and the al-Qaeda terror network.