'Ali's speech upon the death of Abu Bakr (ra)

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: 'Ali's speech upon the death of Abu Bakr (ra)

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If you beleive in this tradition of Sahih Bukhari then it begins with Abbas r.a calling Imam Ali sinful, treacherous and liar, then you should also beleive that Abbas r.a who is so revered by shias beleived the same about Imam Ali.

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Re: 'Ali's speech upon the death of Abu Bakr (ra)

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very very nice.

ham koon hotay hain sahabies kay apas main relation ko discuss karnay walay, woo log bhi human thay.

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Hz Ali bin Abu Talib (ra) had also said the following at the death bed of Hz Umar al Khattab (ra)!

Al-Bukhari reported on the authority of Ibn Abbas: When (the dead body of) 'Umar was put on his deathbed, the people gathered around him and invoked (Allah) and prayed for him before the body was taken away, and I was amongst them.

Suddenly I felt somebody taking hold of my shoulder and found out that he was 'Ali bin Abi Talib. 'Ali invoked Allah's Mercy for 'Umar and said, "O 'Umar! You have not left behind you a person whose deeds I like to imitate and meet Allah with more than I like your deeds.

By Allah! I always thought that Allah would keep you with your two companions, for very often I used to hear the Prophet saying, 'I, Abu Bakr and 'Umar went (somewhere); I, Abu Bakr and 'Umar entered (somewhere); and I, Abu Bakr and 'Umar went out.' Saheeh Bukhari Volume:5 Book :57 (Companions of the Prophet)Number :34

Keep in mind that Hz Ibn Abbas (ra) was first cousin and a very close companion of Hz Ali (ra).

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Re: 'Ali's speech upon the death of Abu Bakr (ra)

Bukhari V 5, Book 57, read riwayat 26 and then 34. They are both almost identical but #34 includes the sentence: "O 'Umar! You have not left behind you a person whose deeds I like to imitate and meet Allah with more than I like your deeds"!

This sentence was cleary added by someone and wasn't Abu Bakr greater then Umar? but i guess naqal kay liyeh aqal ki zaroorat hoti hay.

By the way if you get a chance then read Shia hadiths from Imam Ali. You will see a visible difference in the beauty and eleoquency of the words of our great Imam.

Ba-mazirat.

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Umer app is baat ko negtaively maat lena... Main kisi ki insult kernay ki koshish nahi ker raha hai.

App jinhain pasandida shahbies kehtay ho woh app key mutabiq pasandida hain; App ki opnion hai fact nahi.

*islam ko buray waqt say bachanay ki jidojhoud may lag gay, kyunkay, dushman-e-islam na us waqt kay faida uthanay ki kosish start kar di thi.
*

To kia Imam Ali a.s ko ya un logon ko jinhoon ney jinaza attend kia Islam ka khayal nahi tha ? ....." Dushman-e-Islam ney uss waqt ka faida uthanay ki koshish start kar di thi ?" Main kahoon ga key Dushman-e-Islam ney us waqt ka faida utha lia ? Jinazay main kitna Time lagta hai ???

App please zara tafseel sey batain app key mutabiq dushman-e-Islam kon they ? aur kia faida uthanay ki koshish ki ? Kia Khilafa choose kerna itna zaroori tha key Rasool s.a.w key Jinaza ko chor dia jaey ?

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12er Shia brothers and sisters should know that their ‘infallible’ imams showed tremendous love and loyalty for Hz. Abu Bakr (ra) and Hz. Umar (ra).

They were just following the footsteps of their great grandfather (Hz. Ali (ra))

Imam Jaffar as Sadiq (ra) expressed his support to Abu Bakr and Umar:
Once wife of Imam Jaffar as Sadiq asked him about Abu Bakr and Umar.
He replied, "I support them”.
Then he said to his wife,” you should support them also."
His wife replied, "So should I say to my creator when I meet Him, that it is your order to support Abu Bakr and Umar."
The truthful Imam Jaffar replied, ” Yes." - Source: Rawzatul Kafi, vol.8, p.101

Once, Imam Muhammad al-Baqir (ra) while sitting with his companions, praised Abu Bakr by calling him the truthful ("as-Siddiq").

One of his companions got astonished by this remark and inquired if he (the Imam) really meant what he said. Upon this Imam al-Baqir replied, "Yes Abu Bakr is the truthful and whoever does not give this attribution to him, then may Allah make that person (who did not give the attribute) helpless on the day of resurrection" Source: Kashful Ghumamah, vol.2, p.174]

Sources are from shia books.

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Re: 'Ali's speech upon the death of Abu Bakr (ra)

12er brothers and sisters already know the truth Alhumdolillah. This topic has been discussed by yourself and other like you here many a times before. Thank you for the effort once again though.

Timepass April 2013
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BhaiJaan

Prophet Mohammad saw was buried at the same place where aap saw died. His janaza was not carried from one place to another. At the time of Prophet saw death many had difference of opinion about burial site some advocated Makah his home town, others Jerusalem where other prophets were buried andit was none other than Abu Bakr Siddique who advocated burial at place where Prophet saw's Rowdha Mubarik is.
Similarly there was no single Namaz-e-Janaza, people entered the room of Prophet saw prayed and leeft, followed by other people.

Are You a Top Poster of the Day?
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So the truth that you know is at variance to that what your 'imams' state!!!

So you know something they didn't?

What should I do?
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Re: 'Ali's speech upon the death of Abu Bakr (ra)

If you knew what the Imams stated then we wont be having this discussion. Alhumdolillah, they were with the truth and we are their followers.
[9:119] O ye who believe! Be careful of your duty to Allah, and be with the truthful.

If the truth was stated in this thread then the likes of you wont like it, so lets not worry about it for now.

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Well I just quoted the imams - but would you care. I guess not and it is very obvious.

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Re: 'Ali's speech upon the death of Abu Bakr (ra)

^ I don't think you caught the drift there Ibn Sadique. Neither Abu Bakr or Umar were important enough to be spoken about by the Imams (as). It was in the interest of some of the rulers of the different times who were more interested in the two as it justified their own unjust rule. These Ummawi and Abbasi rulers knew very well who the true right of Islamic leadership actually belonged to but put forward such questions to the Aaema (as) in order to use the answers to their advantage. Similarly, some nawasib still try to pick a portion or two of a riwayat from a Shia book and then try to use them to their advantage. Ironic how the mentality never changes.

Timepass April 2013
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Brother Iconoclast, Sahih Bukhari is NOT hujjat for us. I was just showing the OP how the most authentic book after Quran (for Sunnis) contradict the speech he posted from another (unknown) Sunni book.

As for Ibn Abbas calling Imam Ali (as) sinful, treacherous and liar, well my brother. According to most authentic book after Quran he also deemed Abu Bakr and Umar to be sinful, treacherous and liar in the same tradition. So here goes the Sunni myth of sahaba loving and respecting each other.

Any how AbdAllah ibn Abbas was one of the great mufasser of Quran and Hadith. Let’s see what he really thought about Ali (as) from authentic sunni source:

And then:

Source: The Life of Hadrat Ali, r.a. (A sunni site)

You see the contradiction here. :slight_smile: Maybe because of these contradictions there is a lot of confusion in sunni islam.

Now about the speech the thread starter posted:

Ibn Al-Jawzee, the author of the book the speech is taken from, might have written a lot of books but it does not make the speech any authentic. Let’s take a look on some events which took place after the demise of prophet (s).

  • A small, informal gathering of Muslim notables, which Ali did not attend because he was busy burying Allah’s (swt) Prophet (s), ended up throwing its support behind Abu Bakr as the new leader. Ali protested this arrangement. He and his supporters refused to swear allegiance to Abu Bakr.

  • Bibi Fatima claimed the land of Fadak. She was asked to produce witnesses. She brought Imam Ali, Hassan and Hussain. Even though Quran testifies the truthfulness of these four personalities their testimony was rejected by Abu Bakr and he issued a ruling that contradicted the Quran on the basis of a tradition no one heard before.

  • As Fatima was dying, she asked Imam Ali to bury her in secret; she did not want Abu Bakr and Umar at her funeral.

This is a part of her will to Imam Ali:

  • Then theres a sermon of Imam Ali Known as the Sermon of ash-Shiqshiqiyyah:
  • Umar, before dying, appointed a six member committee to choose the next caliph. Ali (as) was offered the caliphate on three conditions:
  1. That he rule according to the injunctions of the Quran
  2. That he follow the sunna of the Prophet(s) and
  3. That he follow the sunna of the first two caliphs namely Abu Bakr and Umar

Imam Ali refused to accept condition 3 and the khilafat was handed over to Usman bin Affan. Resulting a disastrous and corrupt rule full of nepotism and favoritism.
I leave it to readers to judge the opening thread in light of these few out of many incidents and decide its authenticity.

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is baat ki kiya authticity hai kay shai hadith sahi hai, kyun kay mullah baqir majlisi nay 60% al-kafi ko un-reliable kaha hai. baki 40% kay bhi koi aatabaar nahi.

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aap ki italla kay liya araz hai kay yeh may nahi kharaha yeh rasool saw ki life or un ki sari life say saabit hai, rasool saw nay namaj pharhanay ka hz. abu bakar ra ko hukum diya jabkay hz. ali ra bhi whan mojood thay, rasool saw ki sari jindagi hz. abu bakar ra, hz. umer ra or hz. usman ra kay saath ghujri, rasoor saw nay kabhi bhi in ppls kay khilaf kuch nahi kaha balkay un say suggention liya bhout say masloo par.

mujhay tafseel denay ki koi zarorat nahi, histry gawah hai khud phar liain, main too apnay jawab ka intizar kar raha hun agar imamate allah ki taraf say hai too itni chupi huwi khyn hai.

aap ki imamate bhut bujdil hai, daar kay maray imam is baat ka izhar hi nahi karta kay wo allah ki taraf say imam hai, our sab say funny baat yeh hai kay un kay so called manaywallay is baat ka izhar publically kartay thay, or wo person jis ko wo imam khatay thay wo un logo say ipnay taluq ka inkar karta tha, imamate khud taqqiya main rahti thi par manaywallon ko khul kar izhar karnay ki ijazat deti thi, khud apnay app ko sunni khati thi par manaywalloun ko shia khalanay ka khati thi yeh immate itni dari huwi thi kay jab woo hukmaraan thi too bhi daar kay maray ialaan nahi karsaki.

12 kay 12 log imamate of publically izhar karay bagair dunya say rukshat hogay par daar kay maray sach nahi bool sakay.

yaar hum 21 century may rahrahay hain.

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chalo kam az kam sach tou kaha hay na. Apni kitaab ko khud hee "sahi" tou nahee bol diya na! Wo bhi aisi kitaab sahi jis mein Rasool Allah kay nawasay ko qatal karnay waloun, aur Rasool Allah kay ghar lotnay waloun say tou riwayatein hein, magar onki apni aulaad say nahee! opar say tumhari saha sitta mein Rasool Allah kay khilaf bay inteha ghalasat mojod hay. Tum mujhay wesay AliJan1001 lagtay ho, nahee?

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You are contradicting yourself again and again.

First you claim based upon the Bukhari Hadith that Sahaba were not loving and respecting each other, and refuse to accpet what Abbas ra thought of Imam Ali based upon less reliable sources that you have qouted later. Do you think the sunni site is more reliable than Bukhari?

Brother then plz clarify before further discussion which book is hujjat for you, other than Quran? If no other book is hujjat for you other than Quran then plz don’t qoute from any other book.

1- The gathering was started by Ansar and not by Umar or Abu Bakr ra.

2- Imam Ali was not busy in burying Prophet saw at that time, Prophet was buried after the issue of Khilafat was settled.

3- 99% may be more of muslims accepted Khilafat of Abu Bakr ra.

Timepass April 2013
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There are plenty of quotes in various books and reporting of incidents even in your "sahihs" that "sahabas" fought wiht each other and even raised there voices in front of the Prophet (SAW) and questioned his (SAW) fairness in distributing the war booty. If you want I will be very happy to provide quotes.

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Brother then plz clarify before further discussion which book is hujjat for you, other than Quran? If no other book is hujjat for you other than Quran then plz don't qoute from any other book.

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There is nothing but Quran and everything has to be evaluated in its light.

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1- The gathering was started by Ansar and not by Umar or Abu Bakr ra.

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yes but they left the funeral and rushed to slug it for khilafat and trust me as per your sahih it was a real slugfest.

Even Umer reminiscing about the event during his khilafat warned against the fitna and suggested that such exercise should never be repeated.

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2- Imam Ali was not busy in burying Prophet saw at that time, Prophet was buried after the issue of Khilafat was settled.

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Please read up on this issue from an honest and open mind, read about teh value of giving an immediate adn timely burial and teh value placed on attending funerals.

The prophet was burried by Ali and the true companions before teh people returned from the khilafat slugfest.

Please do suggest what Ali was doing during this timeframe, if he wasnt burying the prophet or attending the khilafat marathon?

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3- 99% may be more of muslims accepted Khilafat of Abu Bakr ra.
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I just dont get the ijma concept. So if 99% of the muslims agreed on something that is against hte word of God and commands of his Messenger (SAW) then just because its 99% of muslims it should be accepted as the right thing.

In the same light, if majority is always right then why isnt democracy part of Islam and why do we say soverignity belongs to Allah?