Al-Qaeda 'sleepers' in Britain, says MI5

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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Al-Qaeda ‘sleepers’ in Britain, says MI5

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=1167

Micheal Evans
The Times
October 17, 2003

[The following article could signal an ominous new development in the
‘War on Terror’. Note that the supposed threat is described as
‘sleepers’ who lead normal lives. People who “to hide in plain sight",
who are "not noticed and to all intents and purposes … live a
law-abiding existence”. It’s such a broad, vague description that it
could be stretched to cover just about anyone. In fact the following
could serve as a useful preamble to extend the definition of
‘terrorism’. So that ultimately anyone who disagrees with the phoney
‘War on Terror’, or even its conduct, could be labelled as a
‘terrorist’. And that could include me, or you or even your family and
friends . . . anyone. Ed.]

Osama bin Laden’s terror group has “sleepers” in the United Kingdom who
live normal lives but are primed for terrorist action, the head of MI5
disclosed last night.

These individuals do not fit the typical image of a terrorist but just
blend into society, Eliza Manningham-Buller, the Director-General of
MI5, said.

She gave an insight into “new leads” that her service and other Western
agencies have followed since the September 11 terrorist attacks in the
United States. Ms Manningham-Buller said: “Western security services
have uncovered networks of individuals, sympathetic to the aims of al-
Qaeda, that blend into society, individuals who live normal, routine
lives until called upon for specific tasks by another part of the
network.”

She added: “Some of these individuals are in the UK.”

In her second public lecture since becoming the head of MI5 a year ago,
Ms Manningham-Buller said that one of the lessons learnt from September
11 and other incidents was the ability of the terrorist “to hide in
plain sight, to be seen but not noticed and to all intents and purposes
to live a law-abiding existence”.

She delivered the annual James Smart Memorial Lecture (in honour of the
first chief constable of Glasgow) at the City of London Police
headquarters, saying that bin Laden’s organisation had established “a
highly covert series of networks” to support and sustain terrorist
activities.

This explained why al- Qaeda had been able to carry out terrorist acts
since September 11, despite the worldwide intelligence-gathering
operation to counter its activities.

She said that, despite many recent counter-terrorist successes, she saw
“no prospect of a significant reduction in the threat posed to the UK
and its interests from Islamist terrorism over the next five years, and
I fear for a considerable number of years thereafter”.

Comment:

Oh my god according to this description i could be arrested as a terrorist as well as many more on this forum. I thought the west was winning the war on terrorism, of course it is ,the British govt is in negotiations with Irish terrorists to carve a peace treaty. The only problem they have is with muslims who are fighting injustice and refuse to compromise. The west continues to exploit muslim lands and support corrupt muslim rulers and until they stop this their will always exist an ideological battle of ideas between the thought of the western capitalists and Islam.

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Check the Terrorism Act 2000. According to that law, a very large proportion of Britain's Muslims would be legally classified as terrorists, should they actually state their beliefs.

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Re: Al-Qaeda 'sleepers' in Britain, says MI5

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by showkot: *
The only problem they have is with muslims who are fighting injustice and refuse to compromise. The west continues to exploit muslim lands and support corrupt muslim rulers and until they stop this their will always exist an ideological battle of ideas between the thought of the western capitalists and Islam.
[/QUOTE]

I can live with a ideological battle of ideas between the thought of the western capitalists and Islam.

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Are their terrorists who are living among us, probably, I mean if spies and other intelligence agents could live otherwise normal lives outwardly, why should there be any confusion that there are some undesireables living in our community.

Now based on what I read, could anyone be considered a suspect, sure, but could not be considered a terrorist.

what worries me more is teh chain of association. i.e. some of the charities that have recenly been shown to be funnleing money to other groups..How would an average guy even know about that stuff..especially if it is that hidden. So if you gave money to help build a school in some under developed area, but the same group is funding an extremist group but its all under wraps..how would you know about it.

Similarly, the issue of association. if someone is indeed part of a sleeper cell, how would you or I know about it, so you may run into the guy in some social setting, and not know what his other identity is, yet you could be considered an associate, whether or not you knew. Something as simple as giving some guy a ride to the airport could get you in trouble, if the intent of teh guy is to do something idiotic. even if you had no clue about the guy's alter ego or motives..

that is the type of stuff that scares me.

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The onus is on the person who is the donor. You should know whether your money is being used to blow up kids in pizza parlours or at discos. if you cannot figure out where your money is going..you should use it to buy yourself a clue

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Matsui

The onus is on a person to find out what is available. Its when things are hidden and kept from the donors..

When teh govt does not know what some groups have been up to, how is a citizen supposed to know. by that token the govt needs to buy itself clues in bulk.

a registered tax exempt charity organization should be investigated and should only be allowed to operate once it has proven that it is clean.

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Fraudia:
Sad but true that Al Qaeda did on 9/11 forever change something in our country. That something is the sort of naive, childlike trust in others that many/most Americans lived there lives by. Most Americans would take at face value what someone they met at a social gathering might tell them about themselves. Most Americans would not automatically look for underlying nefarious motives in people they might meet.

Now, we do need to be aware that there is evil among us. For example, if I worked at a nuke plant (or airport or port or any number of places) and someone I met at a social gathering seemed interested in and asked me questions about my job, pre-9/11 I probably would have thought this person just wants to engage in friendly chit chat and is being personable. Today, I couldn't afford that luxury and be quite so lackadasical. If someone I didn't know very well asked me about increased or decreased security at courthouses I visit frequently, I'd pause before giving an answer.

I think you are right to be a little scared of the possibility that you might inadvertently render assistance to someone wishing to do us harm. All of us should be. And we should guide our actions based upon this new reality and perhaps be a little less giving toward those we don't know very well than we were before.

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MV

I agree, and am more skeptical and on my guard much more than before. There is some due diligence required on the part of the donor. I am used to this due digigence even pre 9/11 since there are groups out there who line their own pockets or are ineffiecient in how they utilize the charity money, so I was on the whole pretty careful about it, and now even more so.

The issue of association is of particular concern to me as I am invited to all sorts of community events...fund rasiers, dinners, performances and meet and greet all types of people. Its just being sociable...there are ppl i see only at such community events and would just say hello to. I have no way of knowing that any of them is crooked. but if i am seen chatting with these ppl on several occassions, and one of them is up to no good..I could be considered an associate..thats the typs of stuff that worries me more.

yeah one can be more careful about their company, but someone with alterior motives does not announce it, you can get a sense that u like or dislike a person and not interact with him that much..but i suppose the sleeper type ppl if they are doign it right would not give strange vibes anyways.

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Well as long as it’s not ulterior motives Fruadz, you should be okay.

Saying 'Al-Qaeda sleepers' is like saying 'potential father Christmas impostors'.

This is all rather laughable.

But ensures a booming industry and jobs for the boys and girls in surveillance.

This is a bad comedy skit of Orwell's '84.

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Fraudia:
I sympathize with your plight. Fortunately for me, I don't get "invited to all sorts of community events...fund rasiers, dinners, performances and meet and greet all types of people." Being a lawyer, people just seem to have the natural instinct to stay away from me and not invite me anywhere. :)

The association thing has got to be pretty difficult to figure out how to deal with. Both from your standpoint and the standpoint of the government should one of these sleeper cells, god forbid, wake up and do something really monstrous.

The best case is that the underlying terrorist organization (Al Qaeda or whomever) is thoroughly routed and the folks in the sleeper cells decide they like it here and conclude that everyone is better off if they stay asleep forever.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
Matsui

The onus is on a person to find out what is available. Its when things are hidden and kept from the donors..

When teh govt does not know what some groups have been up to, how is a citizen supposed to know. by that token the govt needs to buy itself clues in bulk.

a registered tax exempt charity organization should be investigated and should only be allowed to operate once it has proven that it is clean.
[/QUOTE]

Fraudiya, I run an NGO in NYC, I can tell you when a funder or individual contributor gives money (BTW/time for you to ante-up), they do and should request the audited statements. I do not understand why there is this victim mentality in some of you people that constantly deflects the blame on the authorities who are frankly, doing th eright thing.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *

that is the type of stuff that scares me.
[/QUOTE]

You’re thinking about this too much then. Don't let anyone borrow your passport and supervise the use of your U-Haul and you'll be safe from the Gestapo.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Matsui: *

Fraudiya, I run an NGO in NYC, I can tell you when a funder or individual contributor gives money (BTW/time for you to ante-up), they do and should request the audited statements. I do not understand why there is this victim mentality in some of you people that constantly deflects the blame on the authorities who are frankly, doing th eright thing.
[/QUOTE]

this is not a victim mentality in "us people".. niether am i deflecting the blame on authority..I am noting a concern that I have. Maybe since you run an NGO you can answer and advise on what people should ask for and look for rather than jumping to conclusions and assumptions about people's perspectives.

if you mised reading it, I am all for the govt investigating the hell out of NGOs and charities..I have no issues with it at all.

P.S. audited statements ... all the charities, even those caught later had audited statements. and had audited statements for years.

P.S. sequel: with an approach like the one you just demonstrated..you still want me to ante-up?

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by underthedome: *

You’re thinking about this too much then. Don't let anyone borrow your passport and supervise the use of your U-Haul and you'll be safe from the Gestapo.
[/QUOTE]

:D I am not that trusting. But imagine meeting someone at some community event and just chatting and exchanging contact info. Business card for example..and imagine that chap being a no good two bit blow up artist..who is later nabbed and your business card is discovered from his wallet :)

Hey, I am just trting to be careful ya know

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Reds under the beds.

Musalman under the divan.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Thap: *
Reds under the beds.

Musalman under the divan.
[/QUOTE]

Scary and it's not even Halloween yet.

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Fraudz, it is always someone else fault but these terrorists. That is the daily mantra on this site. I do apologize, I think I was a bit brash re: you personally, which I think is incorrect.

I am amazed that this news is perceived as some kind of agenda agains the muslim community.

It is obviously hard for an individual to know whether some beneficiary is using part of the funds to arm baby killers in Indonesia. But the fact of the matter is, you know the governance, the services etc that an organization provides.

Ofcourse no one would believe that Hamas and like are terrorist outfits here/ You can take a poll..I am quite positive a large number of members view those orgs as some charity cases. But who frankly cares. The authorities are doing their job..no need to cry about it. If you don't like it...move to gaza and give all the money to Al-Aska Martyrs brigade.

As far as you last comment goes..no biggie , actually quite typical a response coming from the pakistani community. Nothing personal, I think I posted a thread on it once. They would rather give it away in a mosque of some islamic charity than give it to an organizaton that helps their kids here and now. 80% of kdis are from Pakistan. Cycle continues..whether there or here..

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Matsui: *
As far as you last comment goes..it is actually quite typical a response coming from the pakistani community. Nothing personal, I think I posted a thread on it once. They would rather give it away in a mosque of some islamic charity than give it to an organizaton that helps their kids here and now. 80% of kdis are from Pakistan. Cycle continues..whether there or here..
[/QUOTE]

Yep but I was being tongue in cheek (my own tongue in my own facial cheek) less to do with Pakistani, but more to do with approach.

Somone I know is doing a pretty comprehensive study on Pakistani charities and from what I know a lot of the donations are sent back home, but increasingly to groups like edhi trust or hamdard foundation which are doing other type of work. That is however an area that more work needs to be done.

Reminds me of something i heard recently from a a gentleman I have worked with quite closely. In Chicago they were trying to raise funds to have an a community funded islamic funeral home. they collected some money and were thinking about using community events to promote it more.

On indpendence day 2 years ago, they announced it during the parade..went to the booths of ppl selling stuff..passed information leaflets about it.

Do you know how much they collected? hazard a guess...Think low..very low..

It was $1 given by some kid.

If i were in your shoes I would not feel too bad about your organization not getting support. I had discussed this with you in the previous thread.

This is off topic, but luckily things are changing slowly and due to the younger generation. some universities and colleges back in pakistan have recived gifts from their students. and organizations like helping hands, edhi and HDF are doing some great work with real impact.

sooner or later teh focus will be on local initiatives as well.

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IN 10 yrs time when these kids are flipping burgers...Islamic Jihad will not be on the minds of these folks.

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Mat, the challenge is partially that if there is need in loal community biut it does not impact them, they dont see it, plus by donating to masjid and religious type stuff they think that they are one step closer to heaven.

In US I have given to mosques as well as non religious causes but where it was needed i.e. in an area where there ws a need for a mosque or a sunday school.

In Pakistan however, I have been in trouble for questioning why they are building another masjid when there are several within 1/4 mile of that one. easier to build fewer better ones than many small, inefficient ones.

showkot:

laws being vague and open to interpretation clause could be applied to islamic shariah laws as well...every law can not pre-determine every potential permutation of circumstances and there fore is there as a guide, as situations evolve laws must evolve and be evaluated for specific situations.

whereas I am not a fan of the whole gung ho efforts for patriot act especially patriot II which got killed. ( I think the whole plans was thrown about in a hurry to handle a crises, and saner minds need ot sit down and really evaluate it) .. Something needs to be done to be able to locate, lock up and dsipose off the fanatics which are hijacking my religion and twisting that to brainwas others and want to hurt others.

if i have not made myself clear before, I would never have any problem reporting someone to the authorities if I feel that the person is up to no good.