Africa is dying of Capitalism, not AIDS

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
41

OG and OM, thanks for the info. Most people in my familyare docs and this issue with antiu viral and anti biotics abuse is a huge problem from what I hear from them.

During my consultign days, one of my clients was a biotech focused pharmacy benefits management company, which chartered us with teh task of figuring out how to ensure..or atthe minimum improve compliance of chronic medications..ranging from growth hormones for kids, to HIV, cancer and other such drugs.

Knowing what I know about the problems with compliance in Us even with major involvement by doctors, i can just imagine how bad it could be in a country with less developed systems and support infrastructure.

On a side note.., I really enjoy these type of threads , they address major issues facing the world and what is being done, what is going on, what more could be done etc. Maybe we can later discuss the environmental impact of traffic jams :)..really

42

Fraudz,

My former company was one of the first to accept terminal AIDs patients outside of hospitals. The department I headed was charged with developing cost analysis for individual cases, as well as for global contracting with insurance companies. It was pretty clear that the drug costs were a big part, but by no means the largest component. I was involved in the economics of this epidemic for nearly 15 years. One of my business parters was a globally recognized expert in rural health care delivery. This debate is not new.....

The US as a secular country understood the importance of an epidemic pretty quickly (once Reagan figured out this was NOT God's revenge for Homosexuality). But the level of ignorance on a world level is still startling. The Vatican still does not believe that condoms work, Muslim organizations in Somalia have banned condoms because they "encourage" adultery, and Qaddafi suggests that heterosexuals cannot get the disease. The drug issue is a hopeless one unless the spread of the disease is halted. As long as the drug companies remain public whipping boys the more basic concepts of disease prevention and treatment will not get the attention they need. Countries such as Botswana have made remarkable progress, and should serve as models for other African countries. Condoms are available in Kenyan TAXIS (!) and the infrastructure of other countries are being addressed. Let's remember that far simpler killing diseases such as Tuberculosis and Malaria are still not being effectively addressed in huge areas of the world.

So long as the ignorant prefer to make political statements instead of making critical decisions the disease will progress.

43

You mean it’s NOT!!! :eek:

Why did I ever stop covering the toilet seats with those nasty paper ringy things. :smack:

44

MyVoice,

Take off the Giant Body condom, and stop washing your hands til they bleed. You have not had sex in the last three decades, and you last took intravenous drugs in 1973, you are quite safe....

45

I have indeed had sex a couple of times in the last 30 years. :snooty:

But, I confess something seemed to be missing without a partner.

And furthermore, when I switched from polyester to latex, I got many more complements on how I dressed. The Body Condom stays.

46

Well, at a minimum, stop hosing yourself off with Chlorox, Nobody buys that it's a Cologne! And you wonder why nobody shows up at your Guppy meets!

47

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
"thats right reduce human life in terms of dollars, dimes, nickels and pennies.

And time spent in labs

the values people hold are truly coming to the forefront for all to see!"

Dude, you are an emotional train wreck. You could throw money at this problem all day long and not do a lick of good. Governments need to change.

So how exactly will free drugs help when the 90% of those with the disease are undiagnosed? The 10% who are diagnosed MIGHT be helped, but you are grossly underestimating the effectiveness of the drugs. The drugs themselves are only marginally effective. They give the patient a THIN advantage. So long as this thin advantage is maintained the patient can survive. In large cities there is some hope that the medical infrastructure can be built and maintained to save diagnosed patients.

Do us all a favor, when you start a thread like this, get a little educated first.... Stop your fuming little smilies and get rational.....
[/QUOTE]

do us a favour and stop hiding from the fact you value people in terms of dollars.

maybe you should try getting a little education and be less arrogant in your personal insults. Your giant cut and pastes are nothing but defending the indefensible.

48

Reply to fraudia later on.

49

CM

what is the big shocker here, I have stated on several occassion in this thread that I do not like the high prices of drugs, and some thing needs to be done about it, price controls whatever. I will insist that patents are very important in protecting the intellectual property rights of the company which invested to develop the product.

so Merck, a US company .. a company that thrived due to teh free market system, looks at it in terms of social responsibility. That is great, no issues with it at all. so I guess capitlaist system is not all that bad. They are not making profit at all on these now..The cynic in me may even say that its a good way to get a larger market share even if giving the stuff away for free because then when you come up with new drugs people will be more apt to go for that, as these are treatments not cures anyways.

what it also raises are the questions brought up earlier, infrastructure for distribution is Brazil is much more advanced than sub sahara africa. The article also does not go much into discussion about compliance with the medication protocol for the patients. An interesting phrase from the article was this..

*That makes the risks of drug-resistance in patients receiving antiretrovirals much higher, and the costs of providing these complex medicines to an ageing, drug-dependent population nearly impossible to predict. *

so its not just a question of drugs only, but a question of drug resistance as well which can grow very quickly and then the drugs are not only not useful for the people who are resistant to them, but to anyone who catches the new strain virus from them.

The responsibility is not just with drug companies to try and make it affordable while still being profitable to be able to fund their research (unless Un wants to come out with some major grants on a condition that the drug developed would be like a freeware), but also health agencies, govts and international NGOs to develop the infrastructure to ensure distribution and compliance..As the article states, one in three are affected..which brings back the whole argument about prevention as well.

Otherwise no matter how you cut it the vicious circle of drugs being produced, used/abused, becoming ineffective, and then new drugs being developed will continue.

The need is for a much for comprehensive solution than to just place the blame on pharamceutical corporations or US or capitalism and walk away.

50

Fraudz,

What is escaping people here is that Americans, including American insurance companies pay the highest rates in the world for drugs. This means that European, Canadian, Third World countries are all being subsidized by the American consumer. Profits that are being generated by drug companies are NOT attributable to some poor country that is being ripped off by the drug companies, the "Risk Capital" to generate new drugs is almost all Western, and primarily out of the US.

The lack of patent protection in the third world is a cheap rip off of the research done by the drug companies, but it is not sustainable. The more complex the molecule created, the less likely it is to be replicated in the third world. Cures based on true genetic engineering will be far beyond the reach of third world countries.

Let's face some facts. Some of the highest infection rates are in African militaries. The never ending wars in Africa, the military spending instead of spending on healthcare, and the ignorance about the basics of prevention, and the lack of any commitment to public education has doomed a lot of African countries. Countries lack even basic testing to determine who has AIDS, and death certificates cite secondary infections as a cause of death so as to minimize the impact of AIDS.

No doubt drugs should be provided to areas and regions where the patinets will benefit, simple humanity would dictate that peoples lives should be saved. Bush's 15Billion plan, spending MyVoice's money, is certainly the most bold initiative to date. My personal opinion is that the money should be distrbuted where it actually has a chance of succeeding. This is not a disease that is "cured". The best that can be hoped for is remission. Therefore the emphasis on prevention must come first.

Money is not the issue, it is ignorance.

51

OG gracias, I dont think I disagree with you slightly on this topic. I know about the high cost of drugs and treatments myself, as i had a medical emergency in a period I took time off from business school to work, and prior to starting work and was not covered.

No dispute on the issue of education, compliance, infrastructure, R&D at all. It may however open some other people's eyes.. or maybe not.

52

Education they cry.

The reality on the ground is the multinational companies with the US government alongside them, have worked day and night and pulled out all the cards to prevent cheap drugs from being produced in poorer nations who suffer from Aids. The focus has been on protecting the multinationals and there valued stock not on education.

Its simple as that, you have more education in America on Aids prevention than anywhere else yet people still suffer from it, do you prevent Americans from getting these medicines the answer is NO so why you being hypocritical aginst others it is there right as much as yours.

53

do americans get these drugs for free or do they get it cheap? No actually americans pay more for these drugs themselves than most people.

lets go over the whole education thign again

1) so free drugs are given to patients in africa
2) there is no infratsructure to properly store distribute teh drugs and to ensure patient compliance
3) lack of patient compliance creates drug resistant strains, again these are not cures but ongoing treatments
4) lack of AIDS education and lack of controls which sparked this explosion in the first place mean that more people will get affected..with the new strains ..these drugs are rendered useless.

so where will the next set of drugs come from? who will invent them, how?

pointing at drug companies is not the solution, anyways CM posted the story about Merck you should read.

Again, cheaper availability of treatments is great and desirable..that has nothing to do with patent protection, as pricing controls and social responsibility as in the case of merck can make drugs cheaper yet allowing companies to stay profitable so they have the funds to pour into more research, unless govts take on that role.

lack of availability of drugs did not create, or grow the problem. the epidemic grew because of lack of education, and lack of a health infrastructure.

Now if the focus has not been on education, that responsibility is with the countries, and maybe NGOs like WHO. If other countries or entities are doing anything for helpi in the education arena they are going beyond their call of duty. Who is funding aids awareness programs in these countries? who is giving them grants? care to check..

54

“The reality on the ground”

Give me a friggin’ break. You have no idea what the reality on the ground is…

Ignorance in all its forms is rife with the AIDS issue. The two statements from “religious” leaders will probably kill a few thousand…

Somali Muslim group bans condoms

Condoms are freely available in medical institutions

Islamic leaders say they have outlawed condoms in Somalia, where the vast majority of the population is Muslim.
The umbrella Somali Ulema Council has said it will use Sharia (Islamic) Law, including flogging, to punish those selling or using condoms.

The council is responding to a United Nations-funded campaign to raise awareness about Aids being aired by a local radio station.

Somalia has been torn apart by fighting between rival militias since 1991.

Unaware

Sheikh Nur Barud, the chairman of the Ulema Council, told a public meeting that the use of condoms will increase adultery and those promoting its use deserve punishment.

The BBC’s Mohammed Olad Hassan in Mogadishu says residents are divided over the declaration by the religious leaders.

Some are in favour of the use of condoms as a protective measure against HIV/Aids while others are not.

Condoms are freely available in medical institutions in Mogadishu.

Due to the fighting, there has been little research into the prevalence of Aids in Somalia but the UN Aids agency says some 70% of young Somali girls have not heard about the disease.

Aid agencies working in Somalia fear that Aids is on the increase as a result of cross-border movements between Kenya, Djibouti and Ethiopia.

The Catholic Church is telling people in countries stricken by Aids not to use condoms because they have tiny holes in them through which HIV can pass - potentially exposing thousands of people to risk.
The church is making the claims across four continents despite a widespread scientific consensus that condoms are impermeable to HIV.

A senior Vatican spokesman backs the claims about permeable condoms, despite assurances by the World Health Organisation that they are untrue.

The church’s claims are revealed in a BBC1 Panorama programme, Sex and the Holy City, to be broadcast on Sunday. The president of the Vatican’s Pontifical Council for the Family, Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo, told the programme: "The Aids virus is roughly 450 times smaller than the spermatozoon. The spermatozoon can easily pass through the ‘net’ that is formed by the condom.

“These margins of uncertainty… should represent an obligation on the part of the health ministries and all these campaigns to act in the same way as they do with regard to cigarettes, which they state to be a danger.”

The WHO has condemned the Vatican’s views, saying: “These incorrect statements about condoms and HIV are dangerous when we are facing a global pandemic which has already killed more than 20 million people, and currently affects at least 42 million.”

The organisation says “consistent and correct” condom use reduces the risk of HIV infection by 90%. There may be breakage or slippage of condoms - but not, the WHO says, holes through which the virus can pass .

Scientific research by a group including the US National Institutes of Health and the WHO found “intact condoms… are essentially impermeable to particles the size of STD pathogens including the smallest sexually transmitted virus… condoms provide a highly effective barrier to transmission of particles of similar size to those of the smallest STD viruses”.

55

.

56

You was talking about ignorance was’nt you.

Well mr defend America policy no matter what they do even if nuclear bomb some 3rd world nation, what is reason Aids spreads, pretty obvious.

In societys where sex is promoted do it with anyone you please have 50 mistresses such as the west You arre running high risk of getting aids.

In societies where it is predominantly muslims the idea of sexual realtions with anyone is not allowed. What reason are you giving condoms and NGO’s spreading ideas counter to islamic values, is it a surprise people talk against it.

If sexual realations with multiple partners or this carefree attitude of sleep with anyone is stopped Aids spreading is reduced. The problem is the system if it promotes these ideas of Just do it, what you expect people to do.

But back to issue of these multinationals it is clear there number 1 priority is money, the capitalists alwasy argue in terms of money, they don’t give damn if people in africa are saved or not, the capitalists have idea do it for number 1 first forget everyone else!

57

I dont think lack of drugs is why AIDS spread in Africa. Unless i have been sleeping, i dont think there is a cure, but just treatments for HIV patients.

Sad fact is that the people who are infected will die, these treatments can only do so much. Had there been more effort towards preventing this disease from spreading then we would not have an AIDS epidemic there.

lack of drugs did not create the widespread infection there, lack of education, responsible behavior, safe and effective medical infrastructure etc did.

as far as saving people goes, helping ensure that more people dont get the virus is a better long term solution than just treating everyone who catches it.

58

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ak47: *
In societies where it is predominantly muslims the idea of sexual realtions with anyone is not allowed. What reason are you giving condoms and NGO's spreading ideas counter to islamic values, is it a surprise people talk against it.

[/QUOTE]

so good, muslim countries thus should not have an issue with STDs because casual sex does not take place there. no issues then. so whether condoms and literature is being distributed, or drugs, both are ot needed because ppl are pious and religious and what nots so no risk of the virus spreading. kewl.

59

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ak47: *

In societies where it is predominantly muslims the idea of sexual realtions with anyone is not allowed. What reason are you giving condoms and NGO's spreading ideas counter to islamic values, is it a surprise people talk against it.

If sexual realations with multiple partners or this carefree attitude of sleep with anyone is stopped Aids spreading is reduced. The problem is the system if it promotes these ideas of Just do it, what you expect people to do.

[/QUOTE]

Which world are you living in? Even your beloved hero Osama has about a dozen wives, so your little theory is absurd. In countries like Pakistan, there was no AIDS helpline before, most cases were undisclosed and the situation was alarming. It has nothing to do with your so called 'ideas to counter islamic values', as Islamic values do not encourage the promotion of STDs like you think it does. People who have promiscious sex will continue to have promiscious sex, the only difference is that through awareness they know what they might get themselves into, and how they might prevent that. Now dont give me a typical mollah type response by saying the khalifah does not allow AIDs awareness and condoms etc.

60

So, by your logic,

All Muslims are good and pure and should not need condoms. That means that all of those dying are presumably Christians and their heathen ways. So what presicely is your gripe?

Muslim or other, people are people, and we are all sinners. The easiest disease to cure is one that never occurs. So out of one side of your mouth you blame capitalism for deaths, but you reject the most effective means of preventive out of the other side of the mouth.

Let's face some facts. In Africa Tuberculosis and Malaria were leading killers until AIDS came along. The drugs for the prevention and cure of these two diseases have been widely avalailable for more 40 years and are virtually free. Yet these diseases persist and kill Millions each year worldwide. Please explain how AIDS is different?