[quote]
Originally posted by jalal_ud_deen:
*So finally the misconceptions of Mr PartyPooper are coming out.
*
[/quote]
Finally? What planet have you been for all this time? What have you been doing for the last 35 replies in this forum? What do you think I've been trying to ask all along?
[quote]
Originally posted by jalal_ud_deen:
**
It is for some reason assumed by Mr. PartyPooper that Allah(swt) will have to directly say in the exact phrase "Khilafah is an obligation upon all Muslims" , and only then Khilafah will be an obligation.
Sub-ha nallah, even someone with basic knowlegde of Islam should be able to see that this is in fact manifestly wrong.
**
[/quote]
Ok so who gave you the authority to give interpretations of the statements that Allah (swt) has made? Or are you saying that He should have said it is fard?
Just because you cannot answer my simple question you have to resort to rationalising your premature beliefs. Now you are literally abusing the Qur'an. If you think that you can get away with that, you have another thing coming.
[quote]
Originally posted by jalal_ud_deen:
**
If any person has a slight knowlegde about the Usul al Fiqh then they would see that this error can only be made by someone who is completely ignorant of the rules of Usul-al-Fiqh, and also has no knowlegde of the Arabic language.
**
[/quote]
Hmmm... I see. According to you, the only way this error can have been made is that the person was completely ignorant of the understanding of Fiqh and Arabic. So the scholar who I went to consult at the beginning of this post is ignorant? Are you saying that he has suddenly no knowledge of Fiqh? Are you saying that he has no knowledge at all of Arabic? So you are saying that he is utterly useless just because he disagrees with your silly little claim that Khilafah is fard upon the Muslims?
Get a life.
Is that the best you can come up with? Just because his opinion is far too inconvenient to handle for you. As far as Islam is concerned, the only person who is qualified to give fatwas is a Qazi. The scholar above is one such person. Not you. Your fatwas or opinions carry no weight. You can yell and shout all you want about Khilafah but at the end of the day your opinion carries no weight in Islam. You are simply not qualified to make those judgements. I suggest that you stand well back otherwise the big boys who really know their stuff will embarass you yet again.
[quote]
Originally posted by jalal_ud_deen:
**
For example, Allah(swt) says:
Let there arise from amongst you group(s) who call to Islam, enjoin the good and forbid the munkar. Those are the ones who are successful[Al-Imran:104]
And clearly the verse does not say :
"Group doing this and this is FARD"
Now someone with hardly any knowlegde of Islam, would say to Surah Al-Imran verse 104, that from that it is not an obligation, since the word group was not mentioned and that the word Fard was not mentioned.he would also go wrong on a number of issues related to this Ayah.-And how ignorant and wrong would this be.
**
[/quote]
Really? Lets bring back the big boys again shall we? Lets see what the above scholar says about that verse.
Question:
Whose Duty is 'Enjoining Good and Forbidding Evil'?
(Aal-Imran, V104): It is a daleel for the obligation of establishing a Hizb (party or group), calling for good (Islam), enjoining what is right and forbidding what is evil. Is this obligation Fard-al-`ayn or Fard-al-kifayah?
Reply:
*The directive of enjoining good and forbidding evil is given at a number of instances. At some of these places the directive is addressed to individuals, for instance, in Al-Taubah 9: 71 the believing men and women are praised for their various qualities, one of which is enjoining good and forbidding from evil (same is the case in Aal Imran 3: 110 and Al-Taubah 9: 112). Then again in Luqman 31: 17, Luqman is praised for the sincere advice he gave to his son. His advice included “enjoining good and forbidding evil”. On the other hand, in Al-Hajj 22: 41 one of the responsibilities of the Muslim collectivity, besides a few others, is to enjoin good and forbid from evil. Then again in Aal Imran 3: 104 the Muslim collectivity (state) is advised to form a group from amongst them, bestowed with state authority, whose prime duty should be to enjoin good and forbid evil.
In view of the above explanation, it should be quite clear that the directive of “enjoining good and forbiding evil” is addressed to individuals as well as the Muslim collectivity.
Another aspect that needs to be clearly understood is the practical nature of the particular directive regarding “enjoining good” and “forbidding evil”. The practical implications of carrying out this directive shall vary with a variation in the position of the person concerned. Under normal circumstances, it should be restricted to a sincere counsel, a soft word of advice or admonition (as mentioned in Al-`asr 103: 3). On the other hand, in a person’s or group’s sphere of legal authority, one may use and exert authority to enjoin good and forbid evil. For instance, when a person becomes a father, a guardian or a head of a state etc, he may use his authority over his children, over those who have been put in his care or over the citizens of his state to promote good and to discourage people from any thing that is wrong. Thus, it should be obvious from this explanation that enjoining good and forbidding from evil does not inherently imply the use of force. Force can only be used for the purpose where a person has the legal authority to use such force. In all other cases, use of force shall not be allowed and the directive of enjoining good and forbidding from evil shall be carried out by a word of advice and admonition alone.
Now coming to your specific question, it should be clear from the above explanation that the directive in Aal Imran 3: 104 is addressed to the Muslim state. In this verse, the state or the Muslim collectivity is directed to arrange for a separate state department, like that of the police department or that civil defense department, which should be assigned the duty of enjoining good and forbidding from evil, on behalf of the Islamic state.
It should also be clearly understood that all such directives of the Qur’an which are addressed to the Muslim state can be carried out only by the state itself. No one besides the state can and should carry out these directives. Thus, the question of whether it is “Fard-al-`ayn or Fard-al-kifayah” does not arise.
I hope this helps. In case any aspect of my answer remains unclear, please feel free to write back to me at your convenience.
Regards
The Learner*
On the same site he has also stated that:
*"The first thing that should be remembered is that a group may hold the creation/establishment or ‘re-establishment’ of an Islamic state or “Khilafah” (as some insist upon using) as its basic objective or purpose and an individual may agree with such a group, as well. Nevertheless, the important thing is that the establishment/re-establishment of an Islamic state is neither the basic objective of Islamic teachings nor is it based on Islamic teachings. In other words, there is no clear directive of the Qur’an or one ascribed to the Prophet (pbuh), in which it is said that the creation/establishment/re-establishment of an Islamic state is obligatory upon Muslims or a requirement of Islam. It is the responsibility of those who consider the creation/establishment/re-establishment of an Islamic state to be obligatory upon all Muslims to provide clear directive from the Qur’an and the Sunnah to the stated effect.
"As far as the directive of “promoting good” and “forbidding evil” is concerned, once again, compliance with this directive does not necessitate joining or forming a group for this purpose (though it would not be prohibited to so). An individual is required to comply with this directive in his individual capacity; an informal collectivity, like a group of Muslims may comply with this directive (informally) in their informal collective capacity; while, a formal collectivity of Muslims, like an Islamic state, is required to comply with this directive (formally) in its formal collective capacity. Thus, the directive of “Promoting Good” and “Forbidding Evil”, per se, does not necessitate joining or establishing a group for the stated purpose."*
And so you have managed to extract completely the wrong context of that ayah. Tsk, tsk. You can't even prove that Khilafah is fard. Because nowhere in the Qur'an and Sunnah does it give such a statement. Yet you have to rationalise your way by mis-translation, mis-quotation and quoting the Qur'an and Sunnah completely out of context.
And the rest of your analysis does not make even sense because you are violating those very rules. You are simply not qualified to give a running commentary on the Qur'an.
[quote]
Originally posted by jalal_ud_deen:
**
So as another example, the Prophet(saw) said:
"He who lies about me intentionally, let him take his place in the Hell Fire"
Here the Prophet of Allah (saw) did not say [in this particular way]
"It is haram to lie about me intentionally"
No Muslim can say that since the word haram was not mentioned, therefore it is not clear. But rather from the above hadith*"He who lies about me intentionally, let him take his place in the Hell Fire"
Any scholar would conclude that it is haram to lie about the Prophet(saw) intentionally.
*
[/quote]
You can't even provide references for that Hadith. Even so there might be other places in the Qur'an and Sunnah where it may say that it is fard not to lie about the our Beloved Prophet (pbuh). Your individual questionable hadith (because you have provided no sources) does not necessarily apply to the whole case. It's called a fallacy of composition brother. Answer my question:
Where does the Qur'an and Sunnah say categorically and unambiguously that establishing Khilafah is fard upon every Muslim?
You cannot answer this question it seems. Why? If you cannot answer this question because you are lying about the issue of Khilafah, then by your own belief in the above hadith you would be in trouble. Because that belief would apply to you. Did you just not say it is haram to lie about the Prophet (pbuh)?
If you want to make sure that the above hadith does not apply to you, then you should make every effort in answering my question:
Where does the Qur'an and Sunnah say categorically and unambiguously that establishing Khilafah is fard upon every Muslim?
Otherwise you will be guilty of committing something which is haram because you willfully pursued a premature belief on which you could not be bothered to check the
ruling on which Islam provided.
Your other examples suffer from the same problems from those you provided above. You have been trying to wriggle and squirm your way out of answering my question simply because the stance of Islam on this issue is different to that of your own beliefs. You are simply not qualified to give a running commentary on the Qur'an.
[quote]
Originally posted by jalal_ud_deen:
**
These examples demonstrate the fact that as Muslims we should not have to look for a specific wording in a Ayah/Hadith to make it an obligation or prophibition, but rather that Allah(swt) can convey this prohibition or obligation in different wordings, all of which can be very clear, unambiguous, and lead to NO difference of opinion.
**
[/quote]
Then why do you disagree with the majority of qualified scholars on this issue? Do you honestly think you can twist the words of Allah(swt)? For your own political desires?
[quote]
Originally posted by jalal_ud_deen:
**
Accepting no other answer, except that particular wording reminds me of some of the Kuffar who I argue with, they say that they will only accept the actual 'SEEING' of God as decisive proof that God really exists. But we know that Allah(swt) existence can be proven in many ways.
May Allah(swt) guide us all.
[Now read my last message]
Ameen.
**
[/quote]
And what the hell does this example to do with anything? You are like a child who tries to study the world by making analogies of one issue to another. There is no real rigorous analysis here! Qualified scholars like the one above practise according to the rules of the Qur'an and Sunnah. Not misleading analogies. I have a word of advice for you.
Grow up.
And answer my question. Your reluctance to this only betrays the lack of basic understanding that you have for Islam. Unless you can answer this question then your belief has no credibility at all:
Where does the Qur'an and Sunnah say categorically and unambiguously that establishing Khilafah is fard upon every Muslim?
They shoot partypoopers, don't they?
[This message has been edited by Mr Partypooper (edited November 23, 2000).]