A change of heart in the making

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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Re: A change of heart in the making

Madam ji, aap kiyun yahan apni green tea ka kaRwa qahwa banane chali aain :chai:

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Re: A change of heart in the making

There is a dismaying level disproportionate and misguided and dare I say, unwarranted criticism against the PTI supporters. PTI supporters are constantly abused from parliament to social media. They are pushed against the wall be shameful and disgusting slurs like terrorists, anarchists, Taliban lovers, burgers, traitors, rebels, fascists, conspirators backed by international lobbies, ghaddar, mulk dushman, army dushman, wajib ul qatal. Such words are not only confined to social media, but some of these words were uttered by Parliamentarians within and outside the parliament. How come I never hear a single hoo-ha about such unfounded and reaction provoking generalisation against people you call most educated and enlightened and the segment of the population – youth, which you consider the ultimate future of this country?

Let’s put things in perspective here and show some balance in our criticisms. I appreciate if one likes to advocate Gandhian philosophy of offering your right cheek when someone slaps your left cheek in politics (I’m not exactly sure whether it was the Bible or Gandhi that raised this point first), but really, this is just extremely inapplicable pseudo. It doesn’t work like that real life, let alone in politics. Not sure if the was point raised by the OP, but it’s worth mentioning.

The extensive use of social media as vehicle for political activism and freedom of media maybe new to Pakistani politics, but such vast political divides and bickering had always been part of Pakistani politics, and politics in general. Before PTI, you had Zia ul Haq vs PPP, MQM vs PPP, PPP vs PMLN, MQM vs Punjabi party and establishment, Musharraf vs PMLN/PPP, and now you PTI vs literally all parties.

Let’s not seek refuge is self-imposed disappointment and despair over display of uncensored and unapologetic political activism on social media. It’s not just Pakistan’s problem. It’s an international issue. People should be able to distinguish between a cause and personality. But yes, I wholeheartedly agree that we should all show certain amount of restrain and responsibility in our criticism. I don’t mind writing long ass essays talking about why re-polling/anti rigging investigation may strengthen democracy if dimwit will just quote my post to say I’m a burger troll and my leader is on magic mushrooms?

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Re: A change of heart in the making

My bad I thought you said that :smiley:

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Re: A change of heart in the making

I wished imran khan success for 'insaf' as ultimately, if he had succeeded, then Pakistan would be the winner.

Imran was dictatorial and surrounded himself with opportunists in his early cricket career, but I was hoping that maturity and the fact, as he said, that he faced "reality" when he had to go and collect funds for shaukhat khanum would make him a very sensible person.

But it seems that it is same old with some good people and/or burgers mixed with reactionary jamati low-level people. What really pisses me off is the thuggish mentality that I have seen in burger / students who harass people on streets or especially on twitter. It is like their education was for nothing. I don't know how Pakistan would ever succeed w/o the burger and educated class getting their heads out of the gutter. I mean look at America: it was a joint effort by everyone somewhere down the line to make the country what it is today.

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Re: A change of heart in the making

I had to point out the irony there. In the previous century, other than Women's Movement, Civil Rights was the last movement to change American society forever, after a long hard wait and a never ending battle. It was anything but a 'joint effort' for most part of the struggle. And guess what, many Americans thought the blacks who were asking for their rights and willing to come out of streets to protest had their minds stuck in gutter. They didn't deserve any of the rights they were asking for. They as a group were monstered beyond recognition.

MQM's middle class heads are still stuck in gutter, PTI burgers and elites have their heads in gutter. Then tell me which section of the society you consider epitome of piety and pearl like perfection and purity that would bring change in Pakistan? Let's find out today. People like you have miserably marginalised and demonised your own youth for their political affiliation. A section of the society which is usually prized as future of the country has been classified as band of outclass. How on earth do you think your country will succeed when there is so much hostility and degradation against the youth that represent the present and the future of the country?

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Re: A change of heart in the making

Does Arsalan have charges provable in court? Imran was accusing him of rolling around in pajeros, having that much money etc.

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Re: A change of heart in the making

Why didnt Arslan took Immy to court and challenged him

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Re: A change of heart in the making

Well Imran didn't take khwaja asif to court for his charges of corruption in chanda activities now, did he?

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Re: A change of heart in the making

Why should Imran even go to court just for baseless arguments …We all know what happened with the election rigging petitions in the supreme court lol

Why didnt Khawaja asif challenged him again in the court if those charges were so real?
Why dont K.Asif talks about it nowdays?

And IK did took him to court
http://www.dawn.com/news/787786/ihc-sends-imran-khans-defamation-suit-back-to-district-court

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Re: A change of heart in the making

So for Arsalan, imran's accusations are baseless. We have come full circle so CASE CLOSED! :D

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Re: A change of heart in the making

Why doesnt Arslan takes out Imran to the court ? :D

May be he knows his father is no more the CJ

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Re: A change of heart in the making

There is a manifesto on PTI's website with priorities and plans. Some reforms in KPK govt are also inline with the manifesto.

Calling Chor Luteray is not gaali, unless the allegations are false. And we all know that there are proven money laundering case against NS and Asif Zardari does have Millions in Swiss bank that he made during BB's 90s govts.
I don't know if IK can use any other words for the corrutpion. Ulta latka doonga, is objectionable and yes I agree with you on that.

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Re: A change of heart in the making

:inna:

gai bhens pani main

https://photos.travelblog.org/Photos/15548/307753/f/2818400-Adult-water-buffalo-0.jpg

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Re: A change of heart in the making

Bongiya'n marna aap say koi seekhay. Naam angelina jolie baatain lindsay lohan waali! :D

First of all, I don't even know how imran's fight for electoral reforms is anywhere close to the civil rights movement? I don't expect him to be superman, but PTI has feudals like SMQ in their party and Imran has yet to take a "do or die" stand against feudalism like he is on his container for electoral reforms (has my support on this issue). Going back to America, you do have to know that civil rights would have gotten no where if it weren't for President Johnson civil rights act, the democratic congress and some 'pubs supporting him in that issue making the democrats lose the south, the white men and women who got beaten up standing up with the blacks and the govt that sent army troops to implement desegregation orders in the schools. Please tell me how and which actors in Pakistan resemble that situation right now? Pleaaase america is miles ahead on civil society compared to Pakistan.

As for criticizing pakistanis, oh gee it must be rocket science that something is wrong with ALL OF PAKISTAN hence the image and actual condition of the country is in the gutter. Say what you will of our elders for bangladesh, elitism, feudalism but at least in the 50s, 60s and 70s, minus the stupid socialist experiment, and perhaps even the 80s, the country was going forward unlike the neutral or reverse gear that the country is on right now. You might be a haroon rasheed acolyte, but I give more deference to showing the mirror in your face that is Hassan Nisar.

PS You should be happy that pakistan is this **** hole now as otherwise, IK would be another footnote in history like Asghar Khan. He was a nobody in the nineties until Geo / media and pakistan's downward spiral made people even give him a chance which he is floundering on his ego. As for being butt hurt for being "miserably marginalised and demonised your own youth" and "classified as band of outclass" (READ PTI workers :( ) then yes, prepare for your feet to be held to coal if you want to come and rule Pakistan. If they don't show anything for all the talk, then prepare to be brought down to your knees for lying. This is what happens in civil society where counter protests also happen against false politicians. Enjoy your naya pakistan for making it possible.

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Re: A change of heart in the making

[QUOTE]
First of all, I don't even know how imran's fight for electoral reforms is anywhere close to the civil rights movement?
[/QUOTE]

This fight is now more than just electoral reform. The fight is for greater democracy and so was Civil Rights Movement but with a different mode of focus. This fight is about systemic inequalities and chronic abuse of power, politicisation of all state institutions by a tiny minority that imposes itself on the nation through illegal means. The fight is about justice, equality and transfer of power to people. Whether he'll be managed to deliver all this or not, but he's certainly raising awareness and making people think and talk about these issues which itself is an achievement on its own.

[QUOTE]
I don't expect him to be superman, but PTI has feudals like SMQ in their party and Imran has yet to take a "do or die" stand against feudalism like he is on his container for electoral reforms (has my support on this issue).
[/QUOTE]

What are you on about? He's been thrashing the gap between rich and poor, feudalism, biradari system, dynastic nepotism, economic slavery and monopoly on Pakistani resources by handful of crooked politicians turned industrialist in his every address. For a person who constantly slates Imran for being too stubborn and always on the edge, I fail to understand what you mean by taking another 'do or die' stance in politics. So much for kicking a fuss on his maximalist position, seems like we tend to support that damned approach only when it suits our own agenda. Logical fallacy.

Last time I checked, PTI never claimed to be a Bolshevik organisation.

[QUOTE]
Going back to America, you do have to know that civil rights would have gotten no where if it weren't for President Johnson civil rights act, the democratic congress and some 'pubs supporting him in that issue making the democrats lose the south, the white men and women who got beaten up standing up with the blacks and the govt that sent army troops to implement desegregation orders in the schools. Please tell me how and which actors in Pakistan resemble that situation right now? Pleaaase america is miles ahead on civil society compared to Pakistan.
[/QUOTE]

This is a grossly simplified, watered down version of arguably the most difficult and complex phase of American history.

Civil Rights would've gotten no where if it wasn't for Martin Luther King joining the movement. Before him, NAACP - a dedicated legal organisation that tirelessly tried every legal route to dislodge the racists order - were fighting for good 40 years before the Civil Rights Movement under King's leadership managed to get the breakthrough in the 60s. This just shows that all movements and ideas need figure heads to unify the message. The long, hard lonely struggle of NAACP, even the divide between Civil Rights leaders of North and South shows that it was not always a 'joint effort' as you claimed earlier.

Instead of knowing the basic, half truth, primary school stuff as to who passed which bill and when, one needs to how these Acts came into existence. What circumstances, which individuals could be credited for initiating the process when and in what way. Since history is all about identifying cause and effect. Civil Rights Act would not have to come to existence without King's carefully executed plan to ignite violent bloody riots Birmingham and Salma, and bring media's attention to the brutality of Southern police triggered by extreme racism. The riots in Salma, Birmingham and the follow up March on Washington was King's clear message to Kennedy that he has people's support, people have risen up against the tyrannical racist order, he can gather a massive crowd, and due to historic mass mobilisation of Blacks, the media in the North will not be able ignore the plight of Southern Blacks even if local racist throw tumultuous fits to deny the problem. King's message to Kennedy was simple and clear - either he ignore the issue all together and give him the licence to pull Salma and Birmighma in every part of the South, or he could respect the spirit for change shown in the March on Washington and pass an Act to end segregation. The Cold War was in full swing. Russia was absolutely loving exposing the facade of America's liberty and freedom by focusing on the racist order imposed on Blacks in the land of opportunity.

King utilised the circumstances to the maximum. The pressure was on Kennedy, and it was him who initiated the Civil Rights Act. The Civil Rights Act which was eventually passed under Johnson, in his own words, was an ultimate tribute to Kennedy. He managed to garner massive sympathetic support by just linking Kennedy's name with the Act. Refer to all the speeches Johnson gave during the passing of the Act. There's a whole background, cause and effect scenario behind Civil Rights Act of 1964. You cannot just discard the long history behind it by making such half baked claims.

[QUOTE]
As for criticizing pakistanis, oh gee it must be rocket science that something is wrong with ALL OF PAKISTAN hence the image and actual condition of the country is in the gutter. Say what you will of our elders for bangladesh, elitism, feudalism but at least in the 50s, 60s and 70s, minus the stupid socialist experiment, and perhaps even the 80s, the country was going forward unlike the neutral or reverse gear that the country is on right now. You might be a haroon rasheed acolyte, but I give more deference to showing the mirror in your face that is Hassan Nisar.

[/QUOTE]

I cannot listen to Haroon Rasheed for more than five minutes and I've never felt compelled enough to read his articles. But since you've mentioned your respect for Hassan Nisar, guess what, he has decided to put his weight behind Imran Khan and his march. :D Now start abusing him and pretend you don't know him or he's another gutter mind for not agreeing with you.

[QUOTE]
PS You should be happy that pakistan is this **** hole now as otherwise, IK would be another footnote in history like Asghar Khan.
[/QUOTE]

If Pakistan wasn't a hell-hole, chances are he probably wouldn't have joined politics to begin with.

[QUOTE]
He was a nobody in the nineties until Geo / media and pakistan's downward spiral made people even give him a chance which he is floundering on his ego.
[/QUOTE]

No Einstein, of course, he wouldn't be what he is today if it wasn't for the free media that made his message so accessible to the masses. Who knows maybe Asghar Khan would've hit gold if he'd pulled all his stunts in the age of free media and hyper active social media.

[QUOTE]

PS You should be happy that pakistan is this **** hole now as otherwise, IK would be another footnote in history like Asghar Khan. He was a nobody in the nineties until Geo / media and pakistan's downward spiral made people even give him a chance which he is floundering on his ego. As for being butt hurt for being "miserably marginalised and demonised your own youth" and "classified as band of outclass" (READ PTI workers :( ) then yes, prepare for your feet to be held to coal if you want to come and rule Pakistan. If they don't show anything for all the talk, then prepare to be brought down to your knees for lying. This is what happens in civil society where counter protests also happen against false politicians. Enjoy your naya pakistan for making it possible.
[/QUOTE]

You can use as many derogatory and crass terms as you like to show how are you so much better than an average PTI twitter supporter to seem to always complain about, but the point still remains. The perpetual demoninsation of youth by status quo and the self pleasing cynics is counter productive. The youth is constantly attacked because they feel a sense of liberation by being enfranchised. They have woken up and decided to keep a keen interest in politics. You can try to marginalise their opinion and political affiliation as much as you like, but they'll ultimately go to the party that promises to represent their voice in the mainstream politics. In 2013, nearly 50% registered voters were youth, and in next election, you will have another 35% increase in youth voters. To all the disappointed NRPs, do consider Pakistan's profound change in demographics before imposing your own finicky expectation on the population that probably in some people's view has 'hijacked' the PTI that was solely carried by overseas Pakistanis. Anyone who thinks ignoring the simmering frustration, despair and sense of urgency for action felt and created by country's largest portion of the population is a small negligible issue is simply deluded, and is in for a real shock.

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Re: A change of heart in the making

My first post was not to advocate Gandhian philosophy. The point I was trying to get across is that Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaaf supporters, and affiliates need to be cautious not to become entrapped because like you said, when you set out to challenge status quo, those who benefit from the illogical system will do everything they can to bring you down to their level of reputation so as to project an image that screams "We're all the same you see". More is expected from Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaaf because the nation hopes that it may be the one political force that may actually deliver on the promises.

Attitude goes a long way, and people witness who is abusing and who is maintaining their level-headedness and cool throughout. As others have mentioned, and I concur there is no doubt that Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaaf is being baited to indulge in the mudslinging, and unattractive behaviors. The party and its' supporters should definitely respond to allegations, and other things thrown at the political party, but how it is done does make a visible and lasting impact.

If myself and someone have a bickering contest, and I do my darndest to get that person to respond to me in a manner same as me or worse, it is a setup. If the other person maintains maturity, people will observe and absorb that trait.

Things are definitely not the same as era of the past where the information did not travel globally in a jiffy. It is an opportunity for a political force like Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaaf to capitalize on this avenue and project its' message to everyone, while defending its' reputation. It isn't an easy task, but who said bringing about Change for the common person would be?

I believe Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaaf can deliver. But if it adapts the same tactics as other political parties in order to defend itself, then the perception will not be one that would convert more voters in its' favor in the short term as well as the long term. That's not to say there aren't people who stand with PTI now. Absolutely there are, and I wouldn't doubt that people are still joining it in droves because they believe the cause is just, but it's about self-accountability and being far superior in character to others. Sometimes you win an argument and lose on the grand scale of things because of how you went about it. Sometimes you lose an argument, but win in the grand scheme of things because people believe your motifs and support your drive.

It's okay to see things from others' perspectives without feeling the need to become closed up and defensive. If what you hear, after listening is inaccurate, then respond in a mature manner because it will garner more respect. The call is really for the party and its' supporters on how they want to be perceived. You cannot argue against a perception because what will you tell a person "No! You're wrong to think that, think otherwise". Presentation and style of presentation of facts is a big deal.

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Re: A change of heart in the making

appreciate this post and thread...and glad you opened it because you are probably the most unbiased poster here...so PTians have no choice but to read your post!!!

here are my 2 cents....guzarish yae hai kay we cant blame PTI for every behavioral idiocy...take leader worship for instance...PMLN supporters will never ever accept any mistake in nawaz no matter what.....and where PMLN lovers' cult following stops, PPP and bhutto lovers start....and where they stop, MQM lovers will begin and where they end, TUQ jan-nisars start....I mean there is no end to this trend and our whole society is plagued by cult following...so why are we surprised that now PTI lovers are following the same trend....after-all these young PTIans saw their buzargs and seniors following and promoting cult following all their lives....why suddenly expect these PTIans to set new standards?

*but there is one element that is unique to PTI supporters and which we never experienced before and that is their lack of patience and civic sense *...yes PPP jiyallas and MQM lovers used to be very aggressive as well but if you differed with them politely without insulting their leaders, most of the PPP and MQM supporters would listen to you without calling you names, insulting you, or abusing you ....

but that is certainly not the case with PTIans....once you express your opposition to khan no matter how logical and civilized you are, you will be bombarded with attacks and hurled with abuses....why? why PTI supporters are so abusive,angry and out of control when their leader is criticized for his ill double standards..PTI’s youth are by far the most aggressive & abusive in the Pakistani Politics’.

and i blame imran khan and his leadership for this behavior...these youth takes inspiration from their leaders & it already has been said ‘PTI’s youth are the most aggressive & abusive in the Pakistani Politics’.

It had started when PTI came into being on notion of change and justice challenging the feudal & traditional politicians in Pakistan, especially in Punjab. Most of its supporters were fresh youth aged b/w 15 to 28 years considering themselves the most loyal & patriot Pakistanis declaring all others as traitors. At that point they desperately needed some guidance from PTI leadership

but what they heard was that Imran himself was abusing leaders of different political / religious parties...calling Moulana Fazalur Rehman Moulana Diesel, insulting MQM leaders & their millions of followers:
insulting President Asif Ali Zardari, insulting Mian Nawaz Shareef & other PMLN leaders....and insulting blatantly and abrasively...just few days ago i myself heard Imran calling nawaz and his followers worst than janwars....his exacts words were "insan to ashraf ul makhlookhat hai..magar yae nawaz sharif and his followers to janwar say bee gayee guzray hain".... astagfarullah!

Above examples are enough to imagine the extent to which PTI leaders & followers have gone obnoxious. And young PTIans picked up the trend...and why not? and now no one is safe from their filthy, abusive, threatening & sub-standard comments & even incidents of physical assault to their own people .... Imran has unleashed a monstrous attitude without realizing the potential consequences......

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Re: A change of heart in the making

If PTI wants/wanted to be a unique/different party from rest of the crowd then they need to be different, but you are right, the supporters are from same country and same culture so they are not going to be different.

This could be because more 'young' people are in the support crowd than before. Even in MQM when young ones were handed power (read guns) they behaved same way, that is when the slogan of 'jo quaid ka ghaddar hay woh maut ka haqdar hay' emerged.

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Re: A change of heart in the making

we also know that altaf hussain used to be a rebellious and an angry speaker in his early days....and so were his supporters

he has mellowed down so much over the years .... and so have his supporters even young ones these days

same is true abt bhutto sahib and jiyalas....BB was more mellowed and hence jiaylaa pan came down a bit as well

Imran, Bhutto, altaf are charismatic personalities and their followers worshiped them.....hence more responsibility on them to use their charisma responsibly...

bhutto sahib to chalay gayee........ khan sahib and altaf bhai ko allah lambi umar day....aur throee see aqal bee!

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Re: A change of heart in the making

Aah ko chahiye ek umr asar honay tak
Kon jeeta hai teri zulf kay sar honay tak

hum ne mana keh taghaful na karo gai
khak ho jayen gai hum tum ko khabar honay tak