I wonder how these arrests will play in the elections?
Folks were saying that this would just magically default most swing votes to the conservative party.. but if they were willfully wrong in handling the aftermath–some are saying memos were passed out ordering officials to blame ETA–it could raise some serious hell.
Why does every damn thing have to be so complex?
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*Originally posted by imran dhanji: *
CNN says may they had to arrest some folks to pacify the Spanish crowds and the elections tomorrow.
These five are related to some phone calling card scheme.
I dint knew that there are Spaniards of Indian origin.
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Well I am sure they had to pacify the crowds, if they have been not exactly been forthcoming as to who is to blame for these terrorists attacks, and have been deliberately put the total onus on one group.
If it transpires in the end that it was AQ on their own (and now we even have one of those routine video tapes?) or if it was a joint ETA-AQ thing, and still the Spanish government purposefully pushed the ETA line regardless, for electoral reasons, then it should be called more of a collusion between the Spanish government and Al Qaida?
There should then be regime change in Madrid...
Dude, Malik, you're confusing the hell outta me.. are you attacking the Spanish government for not saying it was Muslims earlier?? Weren't you jumping on people for simply having reservations addressing that possibility earlier? So is the Spanish govt back to just being imperialist, lying scum?
[edit]That edit didn't really help your statement.[/edit]
With Spain going to the polls tomorrow, this could be a disaster for the ruling conservative party. Not only is it possible that an emotional SPain will blame the conservatives for backing the war on Iraq (against the people’s wishes) and thus turn Spain into an Al-Qaeda target, but if they feel as though the government tried to get votes out of the carnage there could be a new, Socialist, regime in power in Madrid before the week is over.
We live in interesting times…
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*Originally posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT: *
With Spain going to the polls tomorrow, this could be a disaster for the ruling conservative party. Not only is it possible that an emotional SPain will blame the conservatives for backing the war on Iraq (against the people's wishes) and thus turn Spain into an Al-Qaeda target, but if they feel as though the government tried to get votes out of the carnage there could be a new, Socialist, regime in power in Madrid before the week is over.
We live in interesting times....
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Yes, it would have been better had the Aznar government waited till the full facts were out, before purposefully misleading it's own public, and the international community. I think this really exposes how weak the so-called "coalition of the willing" is, when one if it's leading members is actually prepared to cover up any invlovment by AQ or terrorist groups for very, very selfish electoral reasons.
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*Originally posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT: *
Not only is it possible that an emotional SPain will blame the conservatives....
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True, but really it could work for both sides.. the emotional ones could be panicked, feel threatened by terrorists and seek the protection of hardline conservatives. Or they could feel just as threatened but blame the hardline conservatives for 'provoking' the terrorists. That's just one aspect.
I don't know if this could really have much of a real effect on the polls though.. haven't had time yet. Any influence it has would be more knee-jerk than anything. I think the real trouble will start after the elections. The seeds are already there. We could see dozens of investigations and court cases dealing with this in short order...
I don't know too much about Spain's politics or its institutions so I'm lost on this, but I'm guessing it's gonna get ugly.
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*Originally posted by Malik73: *
Yes, it would have been better had the Aznar government waited till the full facts were out, before purposefully misleading it's own public, and the international community. I think this really exposes how weak the so-called "coalition of the willing" is, when one if it's leading members is actually prepared to cover up any invlovment by AQ or terrorist groups for very, very selfish electoral reasons.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Malik73: *
Are you saying Spain is lying?
-- posted 03-12-2004 02:29 AM
In fact if you read from the beginning of the thread you will see at the very outset Spain has been blaming ETA, while others have been going to great lengths to prove it was others. Take a read of the whole thread, and then come back.
-- posted 03-12-2004 02:41 AM
I still see non-Muslims, especially American's are still in a defense-type mentality, and want to blame other groups, even though the government of Spain is still today insisting it is ETA. This kind of desperation to blame others and evident blindness to blame non-Muslims is eveident in other cases, especially after 9/11.
-- posted 03-12-2004 10:07 AM
Is that so? I suggest you read the whole thread from the beginning, and you will see that some people seem to be in overdrive to try to pin it on Al Qaida, despite the Spanish government and the United Nations blaming ETA. For myself I will say that if it is discovered that Al Qaida carried this out, or if it worked with ETA then it will be equally condemned without any sort of excuse.
-- posted 03-12-2004 05:49 PM
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Malik, you're really confusing me... what's your real take on this? Are you saying Spain is lying?
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*Originally posted by spoon: *
Are you saying Spain is lying?
[/QUOTE]
Read what I wrote in my last post. I am saying the Spanish government should have waited till it knew the the full facts were out, before purposefully misleading it's own public, and the international community. In fact it should still wait before it makes the final conclusions, and then everyone can rightly point fingers, instead of stating from the outside as they have that it was one group.
But what is somewhat confusing for me, is earlier even you posted a 'theory' that it was ETA or a splinter, on the initial claims of the Aznar government? Does your theory still stand?
I still stand by my theory. Though it is just a theory, pure speculation and nothing more. (Not based on Aznar's claims but rather what I know of this stuff in general, btw) These arrests of shady calling card salesmen sounds like the lead-in to a cheezy Law & Order episode if you ask me. But you never know.
You never know.. heckuva line. Sounds familiar. I think some other members, all of them in fact, said just that. But that's when things got hectic and people started saying an open statement not ruling out al Qaeda--though keeping the ETA line open as well--was some sort of code that Muslims were to blame. Then it went into Sharpton mode and the mods cut most of the juicy stuff...
Politicans and diapers must be changed regularly.
Prime suspects
In the aftermath of the Madrid bomb attacks, Jeremy Lennard questions whether Basque separatists were really responsible
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by spoon: *
I still stand by my theory. Though it is just a theory, pure speculation and nothing more. (Not based on Aznar's claims but rather what I know of this stuff in general, btw) These arrests of shady calling card salesmen sounds like the lead-in to a cheezy Law & Order episode if you ask me. But you never know.
You never know.. heckuva line. Sounds familiar. I think some other members, all of them in fact, said just that. But that's when things got hectic and people started saying an open statement not ruling out al Qaeda--though keeping the ETA line open as well--was some sort of code that Muslims were to blame. Then it went into Sharpton mode and the mods cut most of the juicy stuff...
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I still stand by my original statement that whoever did this ETA or any other group, should be hunted down mercilessely, and what I said even before these latest allegations today, that if it is discovered that Al Qaida carried this out, or if it worked with ETA then it will be equally condemned without any sort of excuse.
But is this not a serious lapse or breach in the so-called "coalition of the willing" when one of it's leading members is not even willing enough to give the full facts to it's people, and crucially the international community?
3 morrocans, 2 Indians, 2 spaniards of Indian origin arrested.
Translated version :- Yahoo forma parte de la familia de marcas de Yahoo.
MADRID (Reuters) - Five men were stopped Saturday in Madrid by their presumed entailment with the attacks that the past Thursday left to hurt dead 200 and about 1,500 in the capital, at night informed the minister into the Interior, Acebes Angel.
"To first hour of this late five haltings have taken place (…): three Moroccan citizens, two citizens of Hindu nationality (Indian) and there are other two Spaniards of Hindu origin (Indian) to which is taking declaration ", said Acebes in press conference.
Presumably the sale and falsification of the card of the found movable telephone in a knapsack with explosives are implied in and that did not arrive to be detonated. The knapsack contained Plastic explosive made in Spain, along with a detonator and a movable telephone.
Acebes said that they could have extremist bonds, but that still were soon to reach no conclusion.
So the government of Spain has gone from irrefutable authority when it seemed to be ETA behind the attacks to once again nothing but part of the "weak, so-called coalition of the willing" because evidence is pointing another direction. Boy, was that predictable.
Hopefully the Spanish people will vote for the candidates that stand the tallest to squash this extremist threat to prove that killers cannot alter democracies with terror. This massacre willl cause NATO and Europe to become even stronger partners in the war on terror.
There were over 1,000 protestors in Madrid today protesting in front of some governmental building and blaming Aznar government for the bombing because it supported US war on terror.
Then there were 11 million Spanish people on streets yesterday protesting the bombing and asking for punishment to the perpetrators of these bombings.
Now the few who blame Aznar govrnment of supporting US war on terror which caused these bombings and at the same time asking for punishment of terrorists who are behind the bombings of 3-11 are in tough spot. If Aznar's support of US war on terror is a bad thing, then this bombing is good thing. The people who are behidn this bombing need to be recognized as true humanitarians rather than calling them terrorists.
Al-Qaida has brought their "War on West" to the Europe. People who think US is bad, wait few more incidents like this in Europe and al-Qaida and its supporters will meet their true self in the enemy lines.
You have to believe that if these blasts were timed to effect the election, (and that is an inescapable conclusion to me), then think about who would benefit.
If it is ETA, they would appear to be saying, "we are not gone, and despite the successes of the conservative administration, they have not made the progress that tell you they have". This would only seem to reinforce the need for a strong adminstration to completely eradicate ETA.
If it is AQ, it would seem to say, "This is what you get for supporting the war in Iraq". As much as AQ might want to influence the election this way, the outrage at the violence may lead to a back lash that goes far beyond 1000 people protesting against involvement in Iraq. I would wager that Spanish machismo would idctate that they would not be intimidated or manipulated in this fashion.
Today's revelations about arrested Morrocans and Indians may prove to be very damning. On the face of it it would appear that this is the tip of a network in Spain, and perhaps a larger network in Europe. Bias swings to AQ based on these arrests.....
Not to mention a new video claiming to be from AQ.......
I wouldn’t say that this attack had the intention of effecting the election, aQ is going to go in when an operation in ready to run and can be completed with a high chance of success rate. If it were the ETA attacking then doing so now would just solidify the support of its strongest opposition (the conservative government in power now). A combined and co-operative operation by aQ and ETA (or ETA splinter group) effort would again go with when the operation can be carried out with a high chance of success rate. How these attacks have been handled by the Gov. Looks to be poor, at best. I've heard those that say that if aQ is at fault then the current Gov. is to blame because they supported the War on Saddam, that's dumb logic as Spain was an American ally long before the war thus already were an aQ target if not now then later.
Spain’s Interior Ministry identified the two Indians arrested as Vinay Kohly and Suresh Kumar. Two Spaniards of Indian origin who also were picked up for questioning last night in Madrid were not formally arrested but remained in custody tonight, said Acebes.
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*Originally posted by storch: *
So, no you won't see U.S. catholics protesting IRA violence, but neither will you see a defence of it by and large. However, the people of Northern Ireland did protest after Omagh and other tragedies which may have helped quell the violence.
But on "our" (American) issues there is much visible anc vocal dissent.
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and you will not see US catholics being vilified due to teh actions of IRA.
Yes, I just read that in the above story as well. Initially when I read the Spaniards saying people of “Hindu nationality” had been arrested, I thought they just meant Indian.
But Hindu’s working with Al Qaida? It does not all fit…
Spain says that mobile telephones used in this operation by Morroccons had been bought from the two Indians and so they were arrested. Madrid said that all five suspects were being held on suspicion of falsifying and selling a card for a mobile telephone.