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  • Gora husband

    I haven't logged onto this forum in a long long time. I do occasionally pop in here to read stuff just because some discussions are fun. So today I was looking for examples of women who married non muslim men and came across this old thread.

    https://gupshup.org/forum/hangout/gu...ng-non-muslims

    i was kind of shocked at some of the opinions in there but it's almost 10 years old so let's hope people have changed the way they think. i was married to a muslim pakistani guy who married me for immigration and left me less than 3 months after landing (enough time to get a driver's license and secure a job). he's now happily married to his cousin and has a kid. after this whole situation just the thought of marriage annoyed me but of course desi parents never stop looking for rishtas so i moved to a different province on a two year job contract and i met a wonderful gora guy there (grew up in a small town, didn't even know what butter chicken or samosa was). we married almost two years ago. my mom made him repeat shahada and he did it to please her. he is christian but not very religious.

    we've been married for 1.5 year and now getting ready to start a family so i was googling other people's experiences on how they raised their mixed kids and i came across the above post. someone in that post mentioned that a believer has to be someone who believes in Allah, and his prophet (Mohammed PBUH). My gora husband believes the prophet Muhammed PBUH was real and he believes in one God. does that make him a believer? i was just curious if people are still as judgmental on this forum as they were back in 2009 or if they have become more tolerant ...

  • #2
    I don't think people have changed their opinions about this. Some people here might have a "live and let live" mentality about it though.

    Just from that topic there were people arguing on who would be considered an idolater and if the other "People of the Book" would fall under that category and thus not be eligible to marry Muslim women, religiously speaking. It's pretty wild. The fact that Muslim men are explicitly allowed to marry non-Muslim (but still women from Abrahamic religions) but there is valid debate on whether Muslim women are allowed to do the same is pretty funny though. It really makes you think.

    Anyways, my personal opinion is interreligious marriages work best when both parties aren't too into their religion and are willing to compromise.

    Comment


    • #3
      First of all its always feels good to see a poster from good times coming back. So Welcome shelcome!

      That was a good thread and discussion as it used to be back then, so thanks for pointing to that.

      There are people everywhere judgmental and what not. Its not only desis. Take Catholics, or Jews, or in terms of culture Greeks etc. Its hard for densely involved or committed human to see someone else among them deviating from norms. But the question is what do you want, how eager you are and how much you are influenced by others' opinions/verdicts/judgments.


      As for the question if its still allowed, I'm so far from sure. 10 yrs back we used to have a lot of people who claimed they have a vast knowledge of religion but at present I cant think of a single active one who is in this position. So you may not be able to get the religious answer here.


      And then as for its acceptability, I'm pretty sure its more acceptable than earlier. Back then had you asked me, I knew nobody who is going through the same but now I have three only in my family lol.
      We are just an advanced breed of monkeys on a minor planet of a very average star." -- Stephen Hawking

      Comment


      • #4
        I'm paki and I don't care about Brown or Muslim girls marrying white or any race for that matter.


        To be a Muslim you have to believe in the shahadah, if your husband considers himself Muslim then he's Muslim period. However you added a caveat, you called him a Christian and truth is, if you ask any Christian then and Muslim - you can't be a member of both religions at the same time.

        I believe in jesus and G-d but that don't make me a Christian, similarly him believing that Mohammad was a real historical figure (didn't mention he believed in him as a prophet?) doesn't change the fact that he's a Christian.


        This isn't being judgemental, this is just a fact of doctrine. It's like claiming to be a vegan but still eating fried chicken.

        Comment


        • #5
          Why does it matter what people think about you. As long as you are happy.
          Grizzly bear

          Comment


          • #6
            Spoko,

            Welcome back. Your marriage is taking place out there in the real world, not on an online forum. With that said, don't worry about online tolerance level. I wanted to share a story that I came across in one of the Seerah lectures. Shortly before the Battle of Badr, the Prophet SAWS and Abu Bakr (RA) were approached by a bedouin man who was known for his skills in warfare. This man was interested in attaining war booty, so he asked the Prophet SAWS if he could join their ranks. The Prophet SAWS asked the man if he believed in One God and that Muhammad SAWS is his messenger. Then man said, "No." So, the Prophet SAWS told him that he cannot accept his offer for help with the battle. The man went away, only to return again to the Prophet SAWS with the same request. Once again the Prophet asked him the same question and once more the man responded with the same answer. By the third time that this had happened, the bedouin accepted the condition of the Prophet and neither him nor Abu Bakr (RA) questioned the man's intentions or the sincerity behind his shahada. This particular hadith has been used to debate whether or not it is permissible to seek the help of non-Muslims, but the scholar in the lecture (Yasir Qadhi) used this hadith to make the point that when one converts to Islam we should accept it at face value. He shared that there have been several times where he has conducted marriages in which the conversion to Islam (at the time) took place mainly for the purpose of marriage......but that later (with time) the person became more practicing. This is just the stance of one scholar that I'm sharing. If your husband already believes in One God, then MashaAllah that's a good start. If he believes that the Prophet SAWS was real....then let's hope that one day (soon) he'll also believe that the Prophet SAWS is a messenger of Allah's as well. If you're still unsure, you can seek the opinion of an imam. Do your best to put the basics of Islam in practice (without pressuring or imposing on him) and with time he might be inspired to follow your example as well. And when you do attempt to guide him, do it gently when he's in a more receptive frame of mind. Make dua consistently for him.
            I think that if you let me....I'd treat you like the sky
            I'd join up all your insecurities...And bundle all your flaws
            I'd create a new constellation....And search for it endlessly

            Comment


            • #7
              Well there's not much you can do now. Maybe ask for tawba

              Comment


              • #8
                With more than 80 percent youngsters not convinced about the existence of God it is just a matter of time that most people living in West wont believe in religion. There are scores of cultural Muslims where they go thru the motions for cultural sake but don't really believe and most of my nephews fall into that category.

                I did not raise my kids to be religious and none of their friends believe in religion but we do celebrate the traditions and all and I am completely satisfied and have no regrets raising them without religion.

                Comment


                • #9
                  ^ Mubarak!

                  But this is not about you or your family, is it? It's about the OP, who wouldn't have created this thread if religion was insignificant for her.
                  I think that if you let me....I'd treat you like the sky
                  I'd join up all your insecurities...And bundle all your flaws
                  I'd create a new constellation....And search for it endlessly

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by redvelvet View Post
                    Spoko,

                    Welcome back. Your marriage is taking place out there in the real world, not on an online forum. With that said, don't worry about online tolerance level. I wanted to share a story that I came across in one of the Seerah lectures. Shortly before the Battle of Badr, the Prophet SAWS and Abu Bakr (RA) were approached by a bedouin man who was known for his skills in warfare. This man was interested in attaining war booty, so he asked the Prophet SAWS if he could join their ranks. The Prophet SAWS asked the man if he believed in One God and that Muhammad SAWS is his messenger. Then man said, "No." So, the Prophet SAWS told him that he cannot accept his offer for help with the battle. The man went away, only to return again to the Prophet SAWS with the same request. Once again the Prophet asked him the same question and once more the man responded with the same answer. By the third time that this had happened, the bedouin accepted the condition of the Prophet and neither him nor Abu Bakr (RA) questioned the man's intentions or the sincerity behind his shahada. This particular hadith has been used to debate whether or not it is permissible to seek the help of non-Muslims, but the scholar in the lecture (Yasir Qadhi) used this hadith to make the point that when one converts to Islam we should accept it at face value. He shared that there have been several times where he has conducted marriages in which the conversion to Islam (at the time) took place mainly for the purpose of marriage......but that later (with time) the person became more practicing. This is just the stance of one scholar that I'm sharing. If your husband already believes in One God, then MashaAllah that's a good start. If he believes that the Prophet SAWS was real....then let's hope that one day (soon) he'll also believe that the Prophet SAWS is a messenger of Allah's as well. If you're still unsure, you can seek the opinion of an imam. Do your best to put the basics of Islam in practice (without pressuring or imposing on him) and with time he might be inspired to follow your example as well. And when you do attempt to guide him, do it gently when he's in a more receptive frame of mind. Make dua consistently for him.
                    This is a beautiful story. My mom just had one condition for our marriage, that he says shahada. As far as she is concerned, she witnessed him say it and she can tell anyone who asks that yes, he said his shahada. She did not question his intentions either and I am not worried about anyone's opinions. My parents are happy, I am happy and that is all that matters. I was just looking for posts about other people's experiences in raising kids with parents that are from different cultures/religions because I do want to raise my kids with the knowledge of Islam. It's my duty to teach them. Once they are older they will be responsible for their own life and actions but at least I would have done my job.

                    The reason I brought up that post is, all these people saying kids follow father's religion so father has to be muslim, are they not living in a practical world? Who is going to force kids to follow father's religion? Kids will follow whatever religion they want once they are adults but they will learn more about religion of the parent who is committed to teach them. What guarantees are there that if father is muslim kids will be muslim regardless of what religion mother belongs to? No one ever tells a muslim man who marries a christian woman to do tauba. People just automatically assume that the father is muslim so it's ok because kids will magically just become muslims. But God forgive a muslim woman marries a christian man. They will automatically label her jahanami, ask her to do tauba and tell her that her kids will be non muslim without even knowing what the situation is. It's just very sad how people jump to conclusions and are quick to point fingers and reading through that 10 year old post really did make me feel sad for all the people who hold such opinions, and the ones who are targets of these opinions.

                    Comment


                    • Bobby1
                      Bobby1 commented
                      Editing a comment
                      My wife's BIL dedicated his entire life making his boys good muslims and 3 of them live a lie in front of him and have daru with me and tell me they are atheists and tell him they are Muslims. I feel sorry for him as he does not know who his kids are. Fourth boy is a violent muslim. Many kids will not follow any parents religion. Same with my sisters, my nephew dated this girl for 4 years before he told my sis. I am thinking my sister missed out on his sons life. Don't let inconsequential things bother you. My wife does not.

                    • redvelvet
                      redvelvet commented
                      Editing a comment
                      And as usual, Bob has only poor examples of Muslims to share with us. So predictable.

                    • Bobby1
                      Bobby1 commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Those are examples of success they are very successful in their career, got really nice girls, have lots of friends, do travelling. Poor examples would be the ones popping 6/7 kids not missing an opportunity to claim moral superiority and living on welfare.

                  • #11
                    Originally posted by spoko View Post

                    This is a beautiful story. My mom just had one condition for our marriage, that he says shahada. As far as she is concerned, she witnessed him say it and she can tell anyone who asks that yes, he said his shahada. She did not question his intentions either and I am not worried about anyone's opinions. My parents are happy, I am happy and that is all that matters. I was just looking for posts about other people's experiences in raising kids with parents that are from different cultures/religions because I do want to raise my kids with the knowledge of Islam. It's my duty to teach them. Once they are older they will be responsible for their own life and actions but at least I would have done my job.

                    The reason I brought up that post is, all these people saying kids follow father's religion so father has to be muslim, are they not living in a practical world? Who is going to force kids to follow father's religion? Kids will follow whatever religion they want once they are adults but they will learn more about religion of the parent who is committed to teach them. What guarantees are there that if father is muslim kids will be muslim regardless of what religion mother belongs to? No one ever tells a muslim man who marries a christian woman to do tauba. People just automatically assume that the father is muslim so it's ok because kids will magically just become muslims. But God forgive a muslim woman marries a christian man. They will automatically label her jahanami, ask her to do tauba and tell her that her kids will be non muslim without even knowing what the situation is. It's just very sad how people jump to conclusions and are quick to point fingers and reading through that 10 year old post really did make me feel sad for all the people who hold such opinions, and the ones who are targets of these opinions.
                    The people say that "kids follow father's religion" are morons, imo. A lot of the times the woman converts to Islam so ofc then the entire family will follow the religion. In this case, he still has his religion. Generally speaking, it is the mother who does most of the child rearing and thus has a lot of influence over shaping her kids. In the end, like you said, parents can influence their children all they want but the children will grow up and possible find different beliefs. If we're going off of anecdotes, my uncle married a woman who converted. So, their kids are all Muslim but they are very detached from Pakistani culture. They can't speak or understand Urdu and at most eat foods from the culture. They do have a stronger connection with their mother's culture, because she is the one who had a more active role raising them and introduced them to her culture. Had she not converted to Islam, her kids could have had a blended religious upbringing for all we know. Sis, if your marriage is stable and you two can raise children is a blended religious household (like, c'mon, both are Abrahamic religions lol) then it should go fine. No need to feel bad that "mullah worshippers" as one user in the original thread put it (lol) won't approve.
                    Last edited by IsaidwhatIsaid; 2 weeks ago.

                    Comment


                    • third string
                      third string commented
                      Editing a comment
                      There are so many Islamic traditions that only the father can carry out. It's up to OP on how important it is to her for her kids to be raised Muslim.

                    • IsaidwhatIsaid
                      IsaidwhatIsaid commented
                      Editing a comment
                      third string Bud, I see everyday how many ~dedicated Muslims~ disregard parts of their religion and cherry pick what they follow and don't follow (not that this is bad thing, we don't need copy everything from 7th century Arabia). It's not difficult at all LARPing as a Muslim when it is convenient (which is what OPs husband did to make OP's mom happy) so these traditions can also be carried out when OP's husband goes into Muslim mode, if they decide to carry them out in the first place.

                  • #12
                    You know I don't get the children following father's religion argument either. It really is just up to chance. There is this uncle who is married to a gori, I have no idea if she converted or not but he is quite regular in his prayer and is very active in the community. His wife shows up once every few yrs to some community event but his two adult children don't identify with his religion at all so how do you explain that?
                    Anything worth doing is worth doing well.

                    Comment


                    • Bobby1
                      Bobby1 commented
                      Editing a comment
                      These heathens are teaching science and have the audacity to teach children that the Earth is not resting on the horns of an OX.

                    • aqua70
                      aqua70 commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Ah what? Your jab is completely unrelated to what I said.

                  • #13
                    Spoko, I get the vibe that you're maybe feeling a bit scared. If so, take it easy. You don't have any children yet. And when inshaAllah you do have a child, it will still be a while before your child can grasp the concept of religion. So, you still have some time. If following Islam is a priority for you, then communicate that gently with your husband. I think you would get a better sense of direction if you talk it out with him because when it comes to raising children, he is (apart from you) the more important part of the equation; not any online anonymous persons or anyone else for that matter. And if he has any questions about the faith, then you both can explore those together. Alongside that, assess where you are lacking in terms of Islamic knowledge and practice and gradually make changes in those areas. People will have an opinion about everything under the sun. People don't even spare their own kith and kin from their judgement so what hope does anyone else have? You just pray and do the best that you can for yourself and for your family. That is all you can do.
                    I think that if you let me....I'd treat you like the sky
                    I'd join up all your insecurities...And bundle all your flaws
                    I'd create a new constellation....And search for it endlessly

                    Comment


                    • redvelvet
                      redvelvet commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Oohps, posted in wrong place.

                  • #14
                    Long time ago when I was in primary school in Pakistan, two Muslim lady teachers who were also sisters, were married to Christian male teachers who also used to teach there. It was unusual but surprisingly no one whom I overheard or came across treated them differently. I spent 8 years in that school and was quite well informed. There was gossip about that but nothing out of ordinary. But that was pre-internet era when it was ok to have mild opinions.

                    Now though, especially on social media, there are only extreme opinions. Either something is awesome or it is downright evil. Nothing in between, no gray areas! But one thing that has not changed is fatwa shopping.

                    What people say is a minor thing anyway but validity of nikah is something major. If you care about it and don`t seek to do fatwa shopping, then seek advice from a major darul-iftah regarding your situation. Also try to teach your husband about your religion.

                    As far as the matter of father`s religion being kid`s religion is concerned, I look to Bollywood?s interfaith marriages. When husband was a Muslim, ~90% of their kids ended up with a Muslim name and later in life with a Muslim SIL/DIL. But when the faiths were reversed, stats got reversed as well.

                    Comment


                    • Bobby1
                      Bobby1 commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Saudis think a 70 yr old can have a valid Nikha with a 19 yr old and we feel it is abhorrent. Your validity might not be someone elses validity

                    • redvelvet
                      redvelvet commented
                      Editing a comment
                      I assure you that if you were to (just once) stay on topic without veering off to tangents about your own super-successful kith and kin and societal ills, you will not break out in hives, start convulsing, cease breathing, or have any other adverse reactions. Try it. Believe in yourself. You can do it.

                    • third string
                      third string commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Bobby1 that marriage would also be valid under American and Canadian laws too.

                  • #15
                    I get so happy seeing paki guy marry white girl

                    Comment

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