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Apr 15th, 2009, 07:14 AM #1----
existance of these shia books, is these books exist? if so, where are these books and what status in islam.
Mushaf Fatima (Book of Fatima),
Al-Jamia, and Al-Jafr (The Parchment)
Apr 15th, 2009, 09:59 AM #2----
Mushaf Fatima was a book having traditions recorded by Fatima Zahra [sa] and once can say that it was a family book, passed on to their generations, thus, you no need to be bothered on this.
Apr 16th, 2009, 12:21 AM #3----
Apr 16th, 2009, 01:24 AM #4----
There could be, but what you have to do with Mushaf Fatima? If I today write a dairy for myself and for my progeny today, can you have any right tommorow to talk over that dairy?
Apr 16th, 2009, 02:58 AM #5----
Apr 16th, 2009, 09:42 AM #6----
Did I ask you to 'enlighten' me about the topic by telling me any website?
Apr 17th, 2009, 07:54 AM #7----
Brother if you just do translation of what is highlighted in Red, it will SUFFICE...
where it is said by Imam Sadiq (AS) " it is Quran... " according to Arabic version " IT IS MUSHFA..."
Since it is not Quran so if (this book) contains three times or four times of Quran, does it matter?
The Actual Translation as per arabic version : " Abu Basir quoting al-Imam al-Sadiq(A.S.) as saying: The Mushaf of Fatima(A.S.) is with us and how do they know what her Mushaf is.
I asked: What is the Mushaf of Fatima (A.S.)? He replied: It is a Mushaf in which exists three times as much as in the Qur'an. I swear to Allah, there is not a single letter of the Qur'an in it."
Conclusion is left to you
Apr 17th, 2009, 09:14 AM #8----
How unfair is this that a Muslim accusing other Muslim of infidelity. The sole purpose of this thread is to show that Shia don’t believe in this Quran, whereas anyone can check the copy of Quran in their hoses and mosques (not a big deal)
As far a genuine question regarding the true nature of Mushaf-e-Fatimah (AS) and Jafar –e- Jam' iah, it is a worth inquiry.
(I am not be the right person to comment on it, but as far I know)
According to the shia doctrine of Imamat and Wilayat, shia imams are designated by Allah (SWT) and introduced by Prophet Muhammad (PBUH&HP) far the continuous guidance of mankind according to the latest agenda (Shairah). Earth is never void of a pious Wali of Allah (SWT). In this regard Imam has a great responsibility bestowed upon by Allah (SWT) and it conspicuous the divine abilities of the Imam ( as shia believe that Imam is infallible, receives guidance from Allah (SWT), has greatest amount of knowledge elm-e-Ludani ( esp. knowedge given by Allah (SWT) etc ) and in this regard Mushaf-e- Fatimah or Jafar –e- Jami'ah contains special guidance given by Allah (SWT) regarding events that will happen in future and responsibilities of the future etc but in no way it is equivalent or part of Quran or an extra part of Quran. And this is the Divine Book that is been taught for centuries to (shia) children, recited daily in shia homes and mosques, scholars have written comprehensive books on the Divine nature of this book (a number of books related to the refutation of allegations regarding alteration in Quran) etc. and still it is voiced that Shia don’t believe in this Quran ( the one that is in our hands) ….
Lexically, the Arabic word Mushaf can mean a book, collection of pages, a volume or a collection of writings. Sahifah means a page or, in modern Arabic, a newspaper. The plural is suhuf. Thus, in The Qur’an (87:18,19) Allah SWT refers to“ Inna hadha lafi Ssuhufil oola, Suhufi Ibrahima wa Musa” (This is the Scrolls/Scriptures of yore. the Scriptures of Ibrahim AS and Musa ).The word Mushaf, then, does not necessarily mean The Qur’an. It can be applied to any book.
NOTE :- And as far some of the quotations from Kafi, then it should be clear that this book is based on the theme of collection of Ahadith in order to preserve what so ever is available, shia scholars never qualified this book as Sahih ( as it is the case with Sahih Sitta). If any narration concerning the alteration of Quran is present in if and is used by some prominent shia scholar in order to show the invalidity of Quran then it is worth mentioning.
Well I do have a number of references from sunni books to counter this aggression but why should I indulge in this polemic? Regardless of what is written in historical records I know my sunni brothers firmly believe in this sacred text.
A sunni scholar (of sub-continent origin) Hafiz Muhammad Aslam author of "Tareekh-e-Quran" writes on page no. 62 to 67 under the handing of " Shia and Quran " (after quoting a number of view points of shia scholars) says :
"These are the standpoint of those shia scholars who are most notable amongst the community, and their sayings cant be misunderstood (since they are very much clear) and neither this is the case that they said it due to Taqiyya since some of them has written books against ahl-e-sunnah, and Abu Jafar Qumi's book Al-Ah'taqad and Mullah Mohsin's book Tafseer-e-Safi, are part of the curricula and no one can think of it that they are teaching their standpoint of their religion"
Likewise I can quote Moulana Abu Muhammad Abd ul Haq and other scholars but, will it suffice? Those who have disease in their hearts will never accept it, even in Quran Allah (SWT) says about Kuffar (those who denied Prophet Muhammad) that they knew him as they know their own sons but even then they denied him….
Alas! How much spectacular it would had been, if you quoted shia scholars sayings and research regarding Quran AL Hakeem and I would had quoted sunni scholars…
Apr 20th, 2009, 12:08 AM #9----
The most important, oldest and the most reliable book of creed and fiqh (jurisprudence) for jafri shias is Al-Kafi (compiled by Koleni, died in 329 hijri). The part of this book dealing with ‘aqeedah (creed) is known as Usul Kafi and the part related to fiqh (jurisprudence) is called Furu’ Kafi.
We find numerous traditions about Tahreef in Quran in Usul Kafi. In this book there have been put chapters especially on Tahreef in Quran and the effect of such traditions is that the last eminent muhaddith (hadith scholar) of jafri shi’ites, Nuri Tabrasi, in his book Faslul Khitab fee Tahreef Kitab Rabbul Arbab, has not only mentioned 2000 traditions and hadiths of shias over Tahreef in Quran but also stated clearly that all early eminent shia scholars (high ups) except four believe in Tahreef in Quran.
It has also been stated in this book that these four rejectors of Tampering in Quran cannot prove their views using principles of shi’ism.
(In other words their views are based on Taqiyyah so that shias can use their cover at the time of need, saying our these 4 ‘ulama don’t believe in Tahreef in Quran and we also don’t believe in such ‘aqeedah.)
This is not only our claim that (the four) shia ‘ulama who reject tahreef in Quran, do it as Taqiyyah but this fact has been admitted by the famous shia scholar and student of Mulla Baqar Majlisi, Ne’matullah Jazayeri who writes in his book Anwarun Nu’maniyah:
Those who have rejected (‘aqeedah of) Tahreef in Quran (i.e. Shaykh Sudooq, Shareef Murtadha, Tusi and mufassir Tabrasi) have done so due to many considerations (expediency) (i.e. due to taqiyyah to fool sunnis) because they have accommodated such hadiths and traditions in their books in a big number which claim that Quran has undergone tampering and that the so and so verse was revealed this way but later on it was tampered.
(Anwarun Nu’maniyah, printed in Tabrez, 1389 hijri, volume 2, page 257)
Muhaddith Nuri Tabrasi
The importance of muhaddith Nuri Tabrasi one can imagine by the following fact:
Jafri fiqh is based on these 4 books:
The collection of all narrations from these books is named as Wasayel-ash-shia which was compiled by Hur ‘Amili.
To this most comprehensive book of shia-hadiths, Nuri Tabrasi has appended a supplement in many volumes with the name of Mustadrak al-wasayel and thus he has perfected shias’ traditions/narrations. On this memorable work of him, he was buried after death near to the presumed shrine of Hadhrat ‘Ali radhiyAllahu 'anhu in Najaf, where his grave is the pilgrim centre for everyone.
Apr 20th, 2009, 12:11 AM #10----
These scholars of jafri shias who believe in Tahreef of Quran, openly admit it saying
1. We have numerous traditions/narrations concerning tahreef.
2. These narrations of us clearly imply tahreef in Quran.
3. We belief in tahreef of Quran due to these very narrations.
The expert in shialogy, Maulana Abdush Shakoor Lakhnavi who was the first to introduce this book of Shaykh Nuri Tabrasi in the subcontinent, writes in his book Tambihal-Hayerin under the heading of Three Admissions of shia-scholars which was in response to the booklet of his contemporary shia mujtahid, ‘Ali Hayeri Lahori, the booklet was Mau’izah Tahreef Quran:
1. It says in the book, Faslul Khitab, printed in Iran, page 235:
Many hadiths which are authentic and imply the shortfall and loss in the present Quran, other than those hadiths which have been described in the course of prior arguments and imply that this Quran is less than the amount of descent (nuzool) and this shortfall is not specific to some verse or chapter and these hadiths are diffused in such different books in which our religion confides and to whom the followers of our religion refer. I have compiled all those hadiths I came across.
After this he has named numerous books and piled the narrations over tahreef.
2. Moreover on page 31 of the same book, he has quoted the comments of
Saiyid Muhammad Jazayeri has written in the book Anwar which means the people of Imamiyah have agreed on the accuracy (authenticity) of these advantageous (mustafeedha) and continued (mutawatir) narrations which clearly imply the Quran being tampered (changed), this tampering is with Quran as well as with parts and with a’rab (vowel points) and Imamians have agreed on the attestation of these narrations.
3. On page 251 of the same Faslul Khitab, he quotes other ‘ulama as well other than muhaddith Jazayeri, saying the narrations of tahreef are mutawatir. Certainly the narrations on tahreef are numerous even that Saiyid Ne’matullah Jazyeri has written in some of his compilations as is transmitted through them, the narrations which imply the tampering in Quran are more than 2000 and a jama’at (group) has claimed for them to be mustafeedh, for example Mufeed, researcher Damaad and ‘Allamah Majlisi etc. rather the Shaykh in Tabayaan has clearly stated that these narrations are numerous even that a group of hadith scholars has claimed that such narrations are mutawatir which would be discussed later on…
It should be known that hadiths on tahreef (of Quran) have been transmitted from those books in which our fellows trust in order to establish commands of shari’ah and to transmit traditions of Nabawiyah.
3. Afterward the author of Faslul Khitab has fulfilled his promise and in the end of the book has mentioned the names of all those hadith scholars who have referred to narrations of tahreef as mutawatir. With these names is the name of ‘Allamah Majlisi as well and these lines of his text is worth reading:
To me the narrations about tahreef in Quran are really mutawatir (continued), if these narrations are abandoned, it would discredit all our art of hadith, even that according to my knowledge, the narrations about tahreef in Quran are not less than those of the issue of Imamat, therefore if the narrations of Tahreef in Quran are not trusted, the creed of Imamat as well can’t be proven through narrations.
4. ‘Allamah Muhsin Kashi, in the preface of Tafsir Saafi, narrating (filthy) traditions of Tahreef, says on page 32 (printed in Tehran, 1375 hijri):
The meaning of all these narrations as well as the hadiths which have been transmitted with the sanad of Ahl-al-Bayt, is that the Quran which is with us is not exactly as it was descent on Muhammad sallAllahu ‘alayhe wasallam but in it something is opposite to what Allah descent and there are some changes and tampering and certainly much of its content has been removed for example the name of (Imam) ‘Ali from many places, in addition to this it is known from these narrations that the order of this Quran (arrangement of verses and chapters) is not as was agreed by God and His Messenger. This all is agreed upon by ‘Ali bin Ibrahim Qummi.
5. Great mujtahid of the last period, Molvi Dildaar ‘Ali whom shias’ great Imam, Molvi Hamid Husain calls Ayatullah fil ‘aalameen, writes in ‘Emadul Islam:
Ayatullah fil ‘aalameen i.e. Molvi Dildaar ‘Ali says, after quoting some hadiths over Tahreef (in Quran) transmitted from the leaders of creation (i.e. Imams of Ahl-al-Bayt):
The conclusion of these narrations is that there was certainly a tampering (tahreef) in this Quran which is before us, with respect to an addition of some letters (huroof) and a loss of some letters even some words and with respect to the order. In this way after believing in these narrations, there cannot be any doubt in the tampering of Quran. (after this Molvi Dildaar ‘Ali has mentioned forms of tampering which we would see later, inshaAllah)
Apr 20th, 2009, 12:23 AM #11----
as we all aware that sahaba ra collected quran in hz. abu bakar ra era whereas al-kafi claim if some one claim that he collected quran is lier, so, as per al-kafi all muslim are lier.
Chapter 35 (PART TWO) AL-KAFI
No one collect all of the Holy Quran except the Imams (a.s.) and that they have the knowledge of all of the Holy Quran
H 607, Ch. 35, h 1
Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from ibn Mahbub from ‘Amr ibn abu al-Miqdam from Jabir who has said that he heard abu Ja‘far (a.s.) say the following. "No one from the people has claimed to have collected the whole of the Holy Quran (in a book form) as it was revealed. If anyone would come up with such a claim, he is liar. No one collected this Holy Book and memorized as Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High
revealed it except Ali ibn abu Talib (a.s.) and the Imams after him."
H 608, Ch. 35, h 2
Muhammad ibn al-Husayn has narrated from Muhammad ibn al-Hassan from Muhammad ibn Sinan from ‘Ammar ibn Marwan from al-Munakhkhal from Jabir from abu Ja‘far (a.s.) who has said the following. "No one is able to claim that with him is the whole of the Holy Quran; its apparent and hidden essence, except the executors of the will of the Holy Prophet (s.a.).
H 609, Ch. 35, h 3
Ali ibn Muhammad and Muhammad ibn al-Hassan have narrated from Sahl ibn Ziyad from al-Qasim ibn al-Rabi‘ from ‘Ubayd ibn ‘Abdallah ibn abu Hashim al-Sayrafi from ‘Amr ibn Mus‘ab from Salma ibn Muhriz who has said that he heard abu Ja‘far (a.s.) say the following. "Of the knowledge that we have received is the interpretation of the Holy Quran and its laws, the knowledge of the changes of time and the happenings therein. When Allah wants good for
a people, He makes them to understand. If He would make to understand one who does not want to understand such a person turns away as if he has heard nothing. The Imams (a.s.) paused, briefly, then said, "Had we found keepers and trusted people for our knowledge, we would have said it (all to him). Allah is the best supporter."
H 610, Ch. 35, h 4
Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Muhammad ibn al-Husayn from Muhammad ibn 'Isa from abu ‘Abdallah al-Mu‘min from ‘Abd al-A‘la Mawla ’Ala Sam who has said that he heard abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) say the following. "I swear by Allah that I know the Holy Quran from the beginning to end as if it is in the palm of my hand. In it there is the news of the heavens and the earth, the news of what has been and the new of what will come into being.
Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, has said, "In it there is the explanation of all things." (16:89)
H 611, Ch. 35, h 5
Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn abu Zahir from al-Khashshab from Ali ibn Hass’an from ‘Abd al-Rahman ibn Kathir from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who recited the following verse. "The one who had knowledge from the Book said, "I can bring it to you before you even blink your eye. . . ." (27:40). The narrator has said that the Imams (a.s.) opend his two fingers and placed them on his chest and then said, "With us, I swear by Allah,
is the knowledge of the whole of the Book."
H 612, Ch. 35, h 6
Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father and Muhammad ibn Yahya from Muhammad ibn al-Hassan from those he mentioned, both of them from ibn abu ‘Umayr from ibn ’Udhayna from Burayd ibn Mu‘awiya who has said that he asked abu Ja‘far (a.s.) about the meaning of the following verse. ". . . Say, ‘God and those who have the knowledge of the Book are sufficient witness (to my prophet-hood).’" (13:43) The Imam (a.s.) said, "It is a reference to us. Ali (a.s.) is the first among us and the most virtuous and the best among us after the Holy Prophet (s.a.)"
Apr 20th, 2009, 12:30 AM #12----
I asked: What is the Mushaf of Fatima (A.S.)? He replied: It is a Mushaf in which exists three times as much as in the Qur'an. I swear to Allah, there is not a single letter of the your Qur'an in it."
you missed word "your".
Apr 20th, 2009, 01:15 AM #13----
Apr 20th, 2009, 01:41 AM #14----
as per your al-kafi jaffer-e-saddiq rah said your quran it proofs that shai did not beliefs of current quran why did not he rah said our quran.
Apr 20th, 2009, 02:38 AM #15----
^ You really are pretty thick. are'nt ya?
In your previous post you claimed you were a shia. Did you or your family have a different quran then?
If yes, then am sure everybody on this forum love to see some scan pages of that quran proving your claims.
Apr 20th, 2009, 03:08 AM #16----
one thing more i have produced authentic books which acertain that shai beliefs on tareef-e-quran, one group called akhbari also beliefs on such belief.
Apr 20th, 2009, 04:08 AM #17----
Precisely the question was "existence of these shia books is these books exist? if so, where are these books and what status in Islam.
Mushaf Fatima (Book of Fatima),
Al-Jamia, and Al-Jafr (The Parchment)"
Until now it is clear that these books do exist, since they are not meant for public so no need to poke one's nose into it and these are not parallel to the existence of Quran Al Hakeem this is their status in Islam (not in wahabi Islam).
Moreover, as far this tradition is concerned distinction is already made between "Quran" and "Mushaf" (though Quran in its literal terms is also a Mushaf (a witten book) but in order to avoid confusion Imam (AS) didn’t use this term alternatively).
In short, "Mushaf Fatima (AS)" is not Quran Al Hakeem. Hence, this thread logically ends here.
As far as the impression that Imam (AS) pointed towards some other "Quran" is completely void. Since, Mushaf is not Quran, anyways, and therefore indicated in the narration separately. And it clearly indicated that you only have got the "Quran" in its textual form, its Zahair and Ba'tin (exoteric and esoteric) factual are with us in the form of Mushaf and Jamia'.
If it were said, we have QURAN (rather Mushaf) that is thrice the size of yours, then one could brag on it, but it is not the case. Therefore word "your" should not hinder anyone, rather those about whom Allah says in Quran Al-Hakeem, they had disease in their hearts and Allah has engorged it… Diseased hearts are not submissive to the truth when it is revealed to them.
As far as the Ulema-e-Muqademeen and contemporary scholars are concerned just name a few, Allama Syed Murtaza (RA), Allama Shaikh Tusi (RA), Allama Tibrasi (RA), Allama Hamid Hussain (RA), Allama Balaghi (RA), Allama Haieri (RA), Allama Khoi (RA), Allama Ali Naqi (of sub-continent origin) (RA)… .
[FONT="]The completeness of Quran is so indisputable among Shia that the greatest scholar of Shia in Hadith, Abu Jafar Muhammad Ibn Ali Ibn al-Husain Ibn Babwayh, known as "Shaykh Saduq" (309/919-381/991), wrote:[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]"Our belief is that the Quran which Allah revealed to His Prophet Muhammad is (the same as) the one between the two covers (daffatayn). And it is the one which is in the hands of the people, and is not greater in extent than that. The number of surahs as generally accepted is one hundred and fourteen ...And he, who asserts that we say that it is greater in extent than that, is a liar."[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]Shi'i reference: Shi'ite Creed (al-I'tiqadat al-Imamiyyah), by Shaykh Saduq, English version, p77. [/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]And its theme is taken from Imam Ali (AS) and it is said that "anything present between the two covers (daffatayn), it is Allah's (sacred) book" (Nahjul Balagha), likewise Imam Sadiq (AS) instructs that recite Quran as it is recited by other Muslims (Muqadma of Tafsir Safi), etc.[/FONT]
[FONT="]It should be noted that Shaykh Saduq (RA) is the greatest scholar of Hadith among the Imami Shia and was given the name of Shaykh al-Muhaddithin (i.e., the most eminent of the scholars of Hadith).[/FONT]
[FONT="]Another prominent Shia scholar is Allama Muhammad Ridha Mudhaffar who wrote in his Shia Creed book that:[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]"We believe that the Holy Quran is revealed by Allah through the Holy Prophet of Islam dealing with every thing which is necessary for the guidance of mankind. It is an everlasting miracle of the Holy Prophet the like of which can not be produced by human mind. It excels in its eloquence, clarity, truth and knowledge. This Divine Book has not been tampered with by any one. This Holy Book which we recite today is the same Holy Quran which was revealed to the Holy Prophet. Any one who claims it to be otherwise is an evil-doer, a mere sophist, or else he is sadly mistaken. All of those who have this line of thinking have gone astray as Allah in Quran said: "Falsehood can not reach the Quran from any direction (41:42)"[/FONT][FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="]Shi'i reference: The Beliefs of Shi'ite School, by Muhammad Ridha Mudhaffar, English version, pp 50-51[/FONT][FONT="]It clearly states if anyone states otherwise may be an evil-doer, obfuscator, or is badly mistaken about the Book of Allah (SWT), and if few scholars states otherwise then it is not considered the doctrine of a entire madhab specially when it is contrary to the Ijma of scholars. And any such tradition or narration present in a hadith book doesn’t qualify it to be utterly authentic to rely on. Yes, such traditions are present in shia hadith books as well as sunni hadith books one can read Al-Etaqan and Dare Mansur by Allama Sauyti where these matters of Tahrif (alteration) are discussed at large but we know in totality sunni madhab rejects this doctrine. Therefore, if it is asked, do Shiites believe in the authenticity, validity and divinity of the Quran, the one we have between two covers and present in every mosque and home? Then every shia will assertively replies; YES.[/FONT]
Assalam un Alykum Manitaba Al Huda
Apr 20th, 2009, 04:21 AM #18----
as far as the akhbari thing is concerned one should be aware of this fact that how were they tackled (with evidence, even some public debates took place in this regard), and what were the endurances of our scholars back then, these days you may find them scattered, and you attribute the so-called doctrine of Tahrif (as you said akhbari have/had it) to the entire nation who stood against them, and generation and generation of scholars... moreover, akhbari and usooli is more of a difference like muqalid and ghair-muqlid... .
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